Hyper grace

[ladylynn]

I agree. Paul talks about the circumcision of the flesh and heart. The circumcision of Christ. Somehow in a mystery God cut away our flesh from our inner man and sealed it with the Holy Spirit ( which is why it is impossible for the real us to hate his brother ).

God quarantined sin in the flesh which is why the wicked one cannot touch us.

1 John 5:18 (NASB)
We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

The evil one can only deceive us because of lack of knowledge who we are in Christ.

Brothers and sisters - it is all in the understanding of the new creation in Christ.

Real estate says it's all in location, location, location. In Christ it is awareness, awareness, awareness !

We truly have an awesome salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!!!!



This is IMO why Paul says in Romans 7:17-23 that it was no longer him sinning but sin was is in his flesh.

It is difficult for Christians like me who have been raised in a certain way to grasp this amazing truth. It still amazes me how Christ has IMPUTED His righteousness to us and our sin was IMPUTED to Him. He who knew no sin became sin for us. We who could do no righteousness were given the gift of the righteousness of Christ. It's all about IMPUTATION and all that means. I'm only beginning to get this and each time I apply it to my Christian life, it becomes another revelation of what Jesus has done for us.

It is scary for humans to put their trust in someone or take something they have not done anything to earn. Many believers have never heard of the word IMPUTATION. The concept is totally foreign.

 

[oldthennew]

MATT.7:21.
Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,
but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven.

11PETER2-2-18-22.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh,
through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom
a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of The Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them that the
beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have
known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1COR.9:26-27.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight I, not as one that beats the air,
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached
to others, I myself should be a castaway.

10:21-22.
You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of The Lord's table,
and of the table of devils.

Do we provoke The Lord to jealousy?
are we stronger than He?

ROMANS11:22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,, severity; but towards you,
goodness, if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

 

[ladylynn]

I agree that is what cults do, in fact all truth comes this way. If I was an atheist and did not believe in creation by God you would be telling me to believe what God has to say about creation. I would have to unlearn what I believed in order to believe the truth of creation. Many times we have to unlearn things to choose what is true. it's called "repent" - change your mind which is the actual meaning in the original greek language as we talked about before.

Jesus' teachings was a cult to the Pharisees which was the religious world that our Lord was in when He came. Search the scriptures.

The only way we can grasp and take in truth is by 'repenting' and having our minds changed..transformed. We put off the old and put on the new. To say this is a common practice with cults is like saying "eating lunch is a common practice with cults., don't you understand you are doing the same thing the cults do by eating lunch too!!!!!!! STOP don't eat lunch!!!!!"

Come come now folks, stop dismissing something you refuse to process because it goes against your 1st understanding. We will always be learning new truths from the Bible and the HolySpirit will open many deeper truths when we start to feed on the the Bible and allow the Teacher to come in knowing He will not lead us astray. But if we refuse to be open to Him, we shut the door and He will not force us to accept the bread of life even if we are headed down a stupid path on our own, He will not force us to believe.

The traditions of men is a strong pull. We have our security in what we have become familiar with. But when we allow the HolySpirit to actually lead us., "out of your belly will flow RIVERS OF LIVING WATER"

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again...no where in the New Testament does it say the Holy Spirit convicts/proves/convinces the believer of sin. Maybe I am missing something? Show the scripture!

The holy spirit witnesses to the heart and mind of believers, and the conscience, or heart, convicts. But that's the same thing as saying the holy spirit convicts believers.

And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, that if our heart condemns us, because God is greater than our heart and knows all [things]. Dear friends, if our heart does not condemn [us], we have confidence before God, 1 John 3:19-21

For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, [although they] do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts [one] after another accusing or even defending them on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16​

 

[Grace777x70]

I have never heard preachers of the gospel of the grace of Christ say that it is ok to live however you want. It completely baffles me where this line of thinking comes from. They say in fact the complete opposite so either people have not actually listened to what they said or they are just parroting from a website or book what someone else said about the so-called hyper-grace said.

I have been pondering sincere Christians get so roiled up about grace when one would think what Jesus did is so wonderful. When they hear us say " There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ." Perhaps they "hear".."What? Are you saying we can just go out and sin and live lawless? ( Of course when people say this it is a great sign that we are actually preaching the gospel that Paul preached ) In their mind they must "hear"...you are antinomianism. ( again a wonderful sign as Paul was constantly accused of this as well )

I think both sides of the camp agree with how the Christian life should look like. It's in HOW we are transformed in which we differ - what the fruit should look like. Grace teaches us it is by grace alone through faith that we are saved. We do not begin in the Spirit and then are perfected by the flesh as Paul outlined so beautifully in Gal 3:1-5

In modern Christianity there are two gospels competing for the hearts and minds of hearers:
1. Mixed-grace gospel: You are saved by grace but sanctified by works

( I can assure you that when we are in heaven we will not be saying " Worthy is the Lamb...and me because I stopped sinning )

2. So-called Hyper-grace gospel: You are saved by grace and sanctified by grace

( Jesus did it all for us and it is through faith in Him alone and in His finished work on our behalf that we will be saying for all of eternity )

I for one, absolutely love the "hyper grace of our Lord Jesus!" It's in the receiving the ABUNDANCE of grace and the gift of righteousness that we reign in this life through Jesus our Lord. Rom. 5:17

Indeed, and part of that grace is to live a life for Him and only Him, not returning to the lives we once lived in and abstaining from what the Lord is displeased with. From there we can abound more in doing His will and moving forward in His power. This is why we are exhorted to seek what is pleasing to the Lord and walk in that, turning away from what we once were and the sins we lived in. The term hyper grace was coined to describe preachers that completely ignore the exhortation for conduct as ambassadors of Christ and focus only one part of the gospel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
Romans 3:5 and 2 Peter 1:9 refer to sins committed under the old covenant, not one's past sins.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15​

We are under a new covenant and new law. We do not sin against the law of Moses because we are not under that law. We sin against the light because the true light (not the light of the law) now shines.

Again, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light already is shining. 1 John 2:8

And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19​

Interesting thought progression. However, the problem with the doctrine that our sins past present and future are forgiven fails to address clear scriptures stating that our past sins are forgiven not our future sins. Christ's sacrifice for our sins cleanses our sins away making us a new creature. At that point His blood still has the power to keep us from sin and the power of future sin. This is why in the NT, the Church is exhorted many times to repent for sin committed. Notice that the context is the Church having to repent. Repentance as we all know is not a one time deal. We continue to repent and the Lord Jesus Christ, our sole Mediator and Advocate, is good to forgive us!

Romans 3:21-26 NKJV
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


2 Peter 1:5-11 NKJV
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, [SUP]6 [/SUP]to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, [SUP]7 [/SUP]to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; [SUP]11 [/SUP]for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

This is not to say that this describes a salvation by works at all, as we know, obedience is an acceptable service unto the Lord.



Indeed, and part of that grace is to live a life for Him and only Him, not returning to the lives we once lived in and abstaining from what the Lord is displeased with. From there we can abound more in doing His will and moving forward in His power. This is why we are exhorted to seek what is pleasing to the Lord and walk in that, turning away from what we once were and the sins we lived in. The term hyper grace was coined to describe preachers that completely ignore the exhortation for conduct as ambassadors of Christ and focus only one part of the gospel.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think you meant to say Joseph Prince..lol.. I called him Joseph Smith one time too!

I agree with what you said here!

Joseph smith was feeling down one day because of all the attacks he was receiving from inside the church due to the message he preached. He went into a bookstore and noticed a book by martin Lloyd jones. He opened it and read of his belief Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary.
I love the quote of his you have put up.
Jesus was accused by the religious of being a lawbreaker
One of the reasons Stephen was arrested and stoned to death was because he was supposedly ignoring the law
Paul said:

Brothers if I am still preaching circumcision( ie law) why am i still being persecuted? In that case the offence of the cross has been abolished gal5:11


The true persecution comes from inside the church( religious establishment) when grace is fully preached. It has always been this way. The accusation has always been the same
You are ignoring the law. In other words, you are preaching a licence to sin

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you! Those are wonderful scriptures! And they are all so true!

MATT.7:21.
Not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,
but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven.

11PETER2-2-18-22.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh,
through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom
a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of The Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the latter end is worse with them that the
beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than after they have
known it, to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again;
and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1COR.9:26-27.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight I, not as one that beats the air,
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached
to others, I myself should be a castaway.

10:21-22.
You cannot drink the cup of The Lord and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of The Lord's table,
and of the table of devils.

Do we provoke The Lord to jealousy?
are we stronger than He?

ROMANS11:22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,, severity; but towards you,
goodness, if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In modern Christianity there are two gospels competing for the hearts and minds of hearers:
1. Mixed-grace gospel: You are saved by grace but sanctified by works

( I can assure you that when we are in heaven we will not be saying " Worthy is the Lamb...and me because I stopped sinning )

2. So-called Hyper-grace gospel: You are saved by grace and sanctified by grace

( Jesus did it all for us and it is through faith in Him alone and in His finished work on our behalf that we will be saying for all of eternity )

I for one, absolutely love the "hyper grace of our Lord Jesus!" It's in the receiving the ABUNDANCE of grace and the gift of righteousness that we reign in this life through Jesus our Lord. Rom. 5:17

This is a false characterization.

 

[Grace777x70]

The Holy Spirit witnesses to us as outlined in Hebrews 10:15-18 that ( verse 17 ) " And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more!"

The scripture 1 John 3:14-16 you pointed out below is so beautiful! If we say to ourselves that we have sinned so bad that God could never forgive me - this is simply saying that God is greater then our heart and He knows all things. The word "condemn" here is not the same greek word as condemnation in Rom. 8:1. Here the word means " to know something against". So, we know that we have done something wrong - we condemn ourselves but God through the Holy Spirit witnesses to us Heb 10:17 He has forgiven us because Christ took away all the sin of the world and we are in Him!

What a beautiful scripture this is that is speaking of the wonderful grace of God that is in Christ!

Romans 2:14-16 is talking about unbelievers and they know within themselves what is good and what is evil. This conscience is a product of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and it is in every unregenerate person. Again..great scripture!

The holy spirit witnesses to the heart and mind of believers, and the conscience, or heart, convicts. But that's the same thing as saying the holy spirit convicts believers.

And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, that if our heart condemns us, because God is greater than our heart and knows all [things]. Dear friends, if our heart does not condemn [us], we have confidence before God, 1 John 3:19-21

For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, [although they] do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts [one] after another accusing or even defending them on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16​

 

[james57]

I think you meant to say Joseph Prince..lol.. I called him Joseph Smith one time too!

I agree with what you said here!

Do you reckon JP went to theological college?

My nephew is a Baptist minister. He went to theological college and read the Greek NT

When he left the college, my mother remarked:

''The sooner he forgets a lot of what he learnt there the better''

A remark I heartily agreed with

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Holy Spirit witnesses to us as outlined in Hebrews 10:15-18 that ( verse 17 ) " And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more!"

This was said to those who were under the old covenant. Their sins under that covenant would no longer be remembered. We are under a new covenant and new law. Sin against that law, and Christ will remember until you turn to the light of his grace to have it washed away.

The scripture 1 John 3:14-16 you pointed out below is so beautiful! If we say to ourselves that we have sinned so bad that God could never forgive me - this is simply saying that God is greater then our heart and He knows all things. The word "condemn" here is not the same greek word as condemnation in Rom. 8:1. Here the word means " to know something against". So, we know that we have done something wrong - we condemn ourselves but God through the Holy Spirit witnesses to us Heb 10:17 He has forgiven us because Christ took away all the sin of the world and we are in Him!

What a beautiful scripture this is that is speaking of the wonderful grace of God that is in Christ!

That's true, but if we do sin we do so in darkness and remain there out of fellowship with GOD until we turn to the light.

Romans 2:14-16 is talking about unbelievers and they know within themselves what is good and what is evil. This conscience is a product of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and it is in every unregenerate person. Again..great scripture!

This is the same tactic that law cultists use by dividing the law into 3 separate parts so that they can selectively use law to suit their agenda. You state opinion (that Romans 2:14-16 only pertains to unbelievers ) as fact based on scripture ripped out of context to support your cultic doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL...that is hilarious!

I think it's irrelevant if one goes to bible college or doesn't go. Smith Wigglesworth never had hardly any education and couldn't even read before he got saved. It's a matter of listening to the Spirit of God that is in us teaching us all things.

God does use "tools" to help us along the way such as NT greek but any dog now can go and get the original meaning of a greek word.

Repenting is good too! I repent constantly! It's a good thing to change your mind when confronted with the truth of Jesus!

Do you reckon JP went to theological college?

My nephew is a Baptist minister. He went to theological college and read the Greek NT

When he left the college, my mother remarked:

''The sooner he forgets a lot of what he learnt there the better''

A remark I heartily agreed with

 

[james57]

Hebrews 10:15-18 was NOT said to those under the old covenant.

The days are coming,”(they are not there yet) declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenantwith the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[SUP][d][/SUP] them,[SUP][e][/SUP]”
declares the Lord.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts Jeremiah 31:31-33

 

[james57]

The first fourteen verses of Heb ch 1o speak of Christ's sacrifice for sin. Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sin.(verse12)
The writer goes on to say:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this.(what the first fourteen verses had been stating) First he says:[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Sacrifice for sin was necessary under the old covenant

 

[Grace777x70]

WOW! I want to go back to the Old Covenant as it sounds so much better. In the New Covenant Jesus remembers our sins?? There are just so many scriptures that go against that thought let alone any scriptures that agree with that statement.

There is no scripture that says in the New Covenant we "lose fellowship" with the Lord. This is a common religious statement which diminishes the gospel of grace. We are Light in the Lord. Again why are we so sin-focused? Why don't we believe that Jesus has taken our sins away as it says in so many scriptures? Why are we so slow to believe in the finished work of Christ?

So, it is "cultic" to believe that unbelievers know within them that they are doing wrong as romans 2:14-16 talks about? Don't answer that as it is a foolish question at best and does nothing to talk about the grace of our Lord in our lives.

This was said to those who were under the old covenant. Their sins under that covenant would no longer be remembered. We are under a new covenant and new law. Sin against that law, and Christ will remember until you turn to the light of his grace to have it washed away.



That's true, but if we do sin we do so in darkness and remain there out of fellowship with GOD until we turn to the light.



This is the same tactic that law cultists use by dividing the law into 3 separate parts so that they can selectively use law to suit their agenda. You state opinion (that Romans 2:14-16 only pertains to unbelievers ) as fact based on scripture ripped out of context to support your cultic doctrine.

 

[james57]

LOL...that is hilarious!

I think it's irrelevant if one goes to bible college or doesn't go. Smith Wigglesworth never had hardly any education and couldn't even read before he got saved. It's a matter of listening to the Spirit of God that is in us teaching us all things.

God does use "tools" to help us along the way such as NT greek but any dog now can go and get the original meaning of a greek word.

Repenting is good too! I repent constantly! It's a good thing to change your mind when confronted with the truth of Jesus!

I agree with your post, but do not believe a Christian needs to read the greek to understand the truth of the biblical message. I believe the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of bringing anyone to understand the message written without the Greek having to be referred to.

My guess is, some ministries that have seen many(if not the most) miraculous healings in them/great power witnessed of the Holy Spirit, have been seen by Evangelists who have never read the Greek.

 

[Grace777x70]

So, it shows that the New Covenant is better then the Old one? Thank God! I was thinking ...where does one find all those sheep and bullocks to take care of one's sins?

I'm just teasin' with ya!

The first fourteen verses of Heb ch 1o speak of Christ's sacrifice for sin. Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sin.(verse12)
The writer goes on to say:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this.(what the first fourteen verses had been stating) First he says:[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Sacrifice for sin was necessary under the old covenant

 

[Grace777x70]

AMEN! Thank God for the Holy Spirit in us!

I agree with your post, but do not believe a Christian needs to read the greek to understand the truth of the biblical message. I believe the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of bringing anyone to understand the message written without the Greek having to be referred to.

My guess is, some ministries that have seen many(if not the most) miraculous healings in them/great power witnessed of the Holy Spirit, have been seen by Evangelists who have never read the Greek.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

WOW! I want to go back to the Old Covenant as it sounds so much better. In the New Covenant Jesus remembers our sins?? There are just so many scriptures that go against that thought let alone any scriptures that agree with that statement.

How can you be so foolish?

But I hold [this] against you: that you have left your first love. Revelation 2:4

But I hold a few [things] against you: that you have there those who hold fast to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat food sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. Revelation 2:14

But I hold against you that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, the one who calls herself a prophetess, and teaches and deceives my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. Revelation 2:20​

There is no scripture that says in the New Covenant we "lose fellowship" with the Lord. This is a common religious statement which diminishes the gospel of grace. We are Light in the Lord. Again why are we so sin-focused? Why don't we believe that Jesus has taken our sins away as it says in so many scriptures? Why are we so slow to believe in the finished work of Christ?

So, it is "cultic" to believe that unbelievers know within them that they are doing wrong as romans 2:14-16 talks about? Don't answer that as it is a foolish question at best and does nothing to talk about the grace of our Lord in our lives.

Of course there is. Obtuse ears can't hear it though.