Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

you said...But there's no such thing as saying the inner man can't sin because the inner man is not a man; it's spirit.

ok..have it your way then..call it the spirit of man..Eph 3;16 calls in the inner man which I why I used that term but obviously it's referring to the real person on the inside of them...

1 Peter 3:4 (KJV)
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

here the scripture uses the "hidden man" of the heart..oppsss..there is again where it says the inner man/person/spirit/woman/human "which is NOT corruptible " How are we going to get around that this hidden man of our heart is NOT corruptible?

it looks like there is a soul too..

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)
[SUP] [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Hey! The exciting thing is we agree that:

follow the flesh = bad

follow the Spirit = good

This is a wonderful thing!

There is no schism between the inner and outer man as you're making. It is one man consisting of corrupted flesh (outer man) and a perfected spirit (inner man). Follow the flesh, you will sin; follow the spirit, you won't. But there's no such thing as saying the inner man can't sin because the inner man is not a man; it's spirit. Inner man is just figurative language. Man is body and spirit.

 

[kohelet]

kohelet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So glad to see you on the forums!!!!!!

Oh, thanks Ladylynn! Good to be here. It's a good place to work out why we believe what we believe - and to change it if necessary. I hadn't so much as heard the expression "HyperGrace" until I saw it in the subject line.

 

[james57]

What he's teaching is obviously heresy. What I marvel at is that his doctrine is based on the teaching that John was only addressing gnostics in certain parts of the 1 John epistle (maybe all of it, I don't know), but by so doing, he has ended up doing the same thing the gnostics are accused of doing, e.g., saying we have no sin, etc. It's really quite interesting the way iniquity works, and the way the lord snares the disobedient in their own machinations.

Id never heard the words heretic and apostate mentioned until I ventured onto christian internet debating websites. He isn't denying we sin in the flesh from what I gather, but not in the spirit.
As it is the spirit/ soul that is pardoned, declared righteous for heaven, not the flesh, the part that counts for eternity can said to be sinless

But I admit to a bais here. I more warm to those who stress the holy spirit leading us into truth, than stressing the letter of the text-such as the Greek. And dissecting the Greek to then provide the answer.
He makes great points, so do you, but his Christianity comes across as a loving, intimate relationship with God through Christ, and he in his heart I believe wants to give God the glory. That is a powerful testimony to someone who cannot be in grave error, though he, as you and i only now know in part. One day we will know fully as we are fully known

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Oh, thanks Ladylynn! Good to be here. It's a good place to work out why we believe what we believe - and to change it if necessary. I hadn't so much as heard the expression "HyperGrace" until I saw it in the subject line.

I was completely indifferent to it until this thread. Now I'm fascinated by it.

 

[crossnote]

1 John 1:7 proves that the aorist making in Hebrews 1:3 cannot be translated as simple past (made) because the blood is obviously still active in cleansing of sin.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7​

So Christ is making purification (cleansing) of our sins as he is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

I've always seen this that the blood has a present purifying effect since Calvary due to it's nature.
Many others see it as symbolic for Christ's work. In either case it (blood/ Christ's work) continues to purify our consciences.

 

[crossnote]

Oh, thanks Ladylynn! Good to be here. It's a good place to work out why we believe what we believe - and to change it if necessary. I hadn't so much as heard the expression "HyperGrace" until I saw it in the subject line.

It appears to be a phrase coined by a Dr. Michael Brown but explained by some as antinomianism repackaged for our generation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Id never heard the words heretic and apostate mentioned until I ventured onto christian internet debating websites. He isn't denying we sin in the flesh from what I gather, but not in the spirit.
As it is the spirit/ soul that is pardoned, declared righteous for heaven, not the flesh, the part that counts for eternity can said to be sinless

So now we divide man up into three separate parts like the law cultists do to the law to achieve their agendas? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Man is a whole and will be judged as a whole for what he does in his body. We have hope for the resurrection of the body, not a disembodiment. Our bodies (albeit transformed) will be saved and declared righteous for heaven.

 

[crossnote]

Speaking of 'inner man/outer man'...who is who in Paul's angst in Rom7 ?

 

[Grace777x70]

Indeed the gnostics did say that they had no sin in their flesh!
( which is why John says in 1 John 1:8..if we say we have no sin , we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us...)

the gnostics did not believe in the material/physical world...and so they would say that Jesus could not have come in the flesh because it was corrupted

( which is why 1 John 1:1 he says they were witnesses of Jesus and have touched Him in the flesh with their hands).

.. they said that Jesus did not come in the flesh ( which is the spirit of antichrist )

I am saying now for at least the 3rd time that us believers do sin in our flesh and will continue to do so until we get rid of this present body. The gnostics had NO sin in their beliefs.

The reason it encouraged me to be called a gnostic is because sometimes one can tell what is being taught/preached by the "accusing" voices that come to label people. Its like the same principal as saying we grace people are accused of saying that we can go and sin all we want because of grace ( which of course is pure baloney ). This is a sure sign that we are preaching the true gospel as Paul was accused of the very same thing.

You have not heard much about gnostic heresy in years past and I believe it's because we are not teaching about the new creation in Christ..how the hidden man of the heart is not corruptible...how it is impossible for the one born of God to sin.

If you teach the above - you are going to get labeled a gnostic. Just comes with the territory like we are saying we can go out and sin all we want under grace. It doesn't matter how many times a person says we still sin as believers in the flesh ( in saying that we agree that there is sin in the world ) or how many times we say grace teaches us to live godly in this present world. - the mindset against this will continue to accuse otherwise.

It's a good thing!

What he's teaching is obviously heresy. What I marvel at is that his doctrine is based on the teaching that John was only addressing gnostics in certain parts of the 1 John epistle (maybe all of it, I don't know), but by so doing, he has ended up doing the same thing the gnostics are accused of doing, e.g., saying we have no sin, etc. It's really quite interesting the way iniquity works, and the way the lord snares the disobedient in their own machinations.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It appears to be a phrase coined by a Dr. Michael Brown but explained by some as antinomianism repackaged for our generation.

Adherents call it modern grace. More like post-modern grace, if you know what I mean (ie, emergent church).

 

[Grace777x70]

Welcome! hypergrace is a good thing - receive all you can.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Oh, thanks Ladylynn! Good to be here. It's a good place to work out why we believe what we believe - and to change it if necessary. I hadn't so much as heard the expression "HyperGrace" until I saw it in the subject line.

 

[Grace777x70]

crossnote..my man! ( i'll never live that down..lol )

I'm not sure what you mean by angst in Rom 7..tell me what you mean and I'll give you what I believe with the knowedge I have now..lol

Speaking of 'inner man/outer man'...who is who in Paul's angst in Rom7 ?

 

[crossnote]

Maybe we can focus this debate (um er discussion) a bit?

How about on the topic, "Is it necessary at times for a Christian to repent and ask for forgiveness of their sins"?

This seems to be my biggest contention ( um, alternate view) with the Hyper Grace folks.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
I can point out in this thread where you said that it's not possible for a believer to hate a brother. If you are now recanting that, or spoke in error, that's fine. But please be clear about what you do believe because it's frustrating when things appear to change like that.

Indeed the gnostics did say that they had no sin in their flesh!
( which is why John says in 1 John 1:8..if we say we have no sin , we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us...)

the gnostics did not believe in the material/physical world...and so they would say that Jesus could not have come in the flesh because it was corrupted

( which is why 1 John 1:1 he says they were witnesses of Jesus and have touched Him in the flesh with their hands).

.. they said that Jesus did not come in the flesh ( which is the spirit of antichrist )

I am saying now for at least the 3rd time that us believers do sin in our flesh and will continue to do so until we get rid of this present body. The gnostics had NO sin in their beliefs.

The reason it encouraged me to be called a gnostic is because sometimes one can tell what is being taught/preached by the "accusing" voices that come to label people. Its like the same principal as saying we grace people are accused of saying that we can go and sin all we want because of grace ( which of course is pure baloney ). This is a sure sign that we are preaching the true gospel as Paul was accused of the very same thing.

You have not heard much about gnostic heresy in years past and I believe it's because we are not teaching about the new creation in Christ..how the hidden man of the heart is not corruptible...how it is impossible for the one born of God to sin.

If you teach the above - you are going to get labeled a gnostic. Just comes with the territory like we are saying we can go out and sin all we want under grace. It doesn't matter how many times a person says we still sin as believers in the flesh ( in saying that we agree that there is sin in the world ) or how many times we say grace teaches us to live godly in this present world. - the mindset against this will continue to accuse otherwise.

It's a good thing!

 

[crossnote]

crossnote..my man! ( i'll never live that down..lol )

I'm not sure what you mean by angst in Rom 7..tell me what you mean and I'll give you what I believe with the knowedge I have now..lol

Well you seem to break down the Christian into inner man (doesn't sin) and body(?) that sins.
So in Paul's struggle in Rom 7 (wretched man that I am) which 'part' of Paul is he referring to?

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you..those are kind words to speak about me.

I believe it's a matter of revelation by the Spirit of God. Jesus gave the revelation of the new creation in Christ to Paul. When you read the early accounts of the apostles ( who had actually walked with Jesus for 3 years ) it seems they didn't initially have the revelation that Paul had about Christ in us. They were still steeped in some of their Jewish traditions. Peter started to come out of it when by a vision was told to go to a gentiles house. They were unclean in his religious upbringing eyes.

The revelation of our Lord Jesus is progressive. There is no greater revelation then to know Jesus and to grow in the knowledge of Him and of the true nature of our loving heavenly Father.

Id never heard the words heretic and apostate mentioned until I ventured onto christian internet debating websites. He isn't denying we sin in the flesh from what I gather, but not in the spirit.
As it is the spirit/ soul that is pardoned, declared righteous for heaven, not the flesh, the part that counts for eternity can said to be sinless

But I admit to a bais here. I more warm to those who stress the holy spirit leading us into truth, than stressing the letter of the text-such as the Greek. And dissecting the Greek to then provide the answer.
He makes great points, so do you, but his Christianity comes across as a loving, intimate relationship with God through Christ, and he in his heart I believe wants to give God the glory. That is a powerful testimony to someone who cannot be in grave error, though he, as you and i only now know in part. One day we will know fully as we are fully known

 

[Grace777x70]

gotcha!

I see in Romans 7 Paul is talking about an inner conflict. He wants to do good but the sin in his flesh (Rom. 7:17-25 ) he says that the law of sin is in his members ( verse 7 ) waging war against the law of God in his mind.

Verse 22 says that he joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man ( there is that guy popping up again )

He's in a mess within himself because of the above so he cries out..who will set me free from the body of this death?

Then Rom 8:1 comes! There is no condemnation because you are in Christ. In knowing there is no condemnation we are free to live from the Spirit which brings life. ( verse 2 in Rom 8 ) Fopr the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set up free from the law of sin and death.
Then in the rest of chapter 8 Paul talks about walking after the Spirit and not the flesh.

I believe the missing element if you will is in the understanding of what it means to be circumcised of the flesh and of the heart. ( the scripture uses both terms and also calls in the circumcision of Christ.)

So, somehow in a mystery God cut away our flesh from our inner man/person/spirit and the Holy Spirit sealed that inner man from the flesh. ( Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30 talks about us being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

That is a quick synopsis but if you are interested I can send you a link where this is talked about in a much fully way.

Again..it's a matter of seeing the new creation in Christ for who we really are now because of Jesus' finished work.

Well you seem to break down the Christian into inner man (doesn't sin) and body(?) that sins.
So in Paul's struggle in Rom 7 (wretched man that I am) which 'part' of Paul is he referring to?

 

[Angela53510]

Luke 9:54-55 or perhaps it would be better in greek for you

ιδοντες δε οι μαθηται ιακωβος και ιωαννης ειπαν κυριε θελεις ειπωμεν πυρ καταβηναι απο του ουρανου και αναλωσαι αυτους στραφεις δε επετιμησεν αυτοις

Selah

I can read the Greek, but I really don't understand what this verse has to do with my post, which was NOT addressed to you.

Or do you think you are Jesus and can rebuke people? I am just saying that people need to stop using a language they do not understand. This thread has more Greek mistakes than any beginner Greek class!

 

[Angela53510]

So apparently you think that the aorist must always be rendered as English simple past? I don't think it's that simple, and there are those who disagree with that and think it's unfortunate that Greek's been taught that way.

The sacrifice happened once; it is finished. But his work as a high priest interceding on our behalf with his blood continues. The blood is proof of his death and what brings us mercy and grace at the mercy seat. His blood didn't just disappear mysteriously when he sat down on the throne. If that's a RCC doctrine so be it; at least they got something right.

And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Revelation 5:6​

And I was not disagreeing with you that Jesus is our high priest, and he intercedes for us, at least until he returns and we are glorified. I suggest you read my WHOLE last post, as I clearly stated that And no, the aorist is simply NOT the continuing tense, which in Hebrews 1:3 is definitely a completed action in the past, since Jesus only died once on the cross, which is what the passage is talking about. It agrees theologically with the rest of Scripture.

Hebrews 7 is a totally different matter.

My last paragraph, in case you missed it.

However, after looking at the Greek for Hebrews 7:24-25, I do agree that it is the continuing or unending state. In other words, the action of purfication was a ONCE for all time action. But Christ being the high priest is forever, a continuing state. He intercedes, but the sacrifice for sin was done on the cross, forever! Christ intercedes, but he longer has to make a continuing sacrifice. That is RCC doctrine, and the Greek proves it totally wrong.

 

[crossnote]

gotcha!

I see in Romans 7 Paul is talking about an inner conflict. He wants to do good but the sin in his flesh (Rom. 7:17-25 ) he says that the law of sin is in his members ( verse 7 ) waging war against the law of God in his mind.

Verse 22 says that he joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man ( there is that guy popping up again )

He's in a mess within himself because of the above so he cries out..who will set me free from the body of this death?

Then Rom 8:1 comes! There is no condemnation because you are in Christ. In knowing there is no condemnation we are free to live from the Spirit which brings life. ( verse 2 in Rom 8 ) Fopr the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set up free from the law of sin and death.
Then in the rest of chapter 8 Paul talks about walking after the Spirit and not the flesh.

I believe the missing element if you will is in the understanding of what it means to be circumcised of the flesh and of the heart. ( the scripture uses both terms and also calls in the circumcision of Christ.)

So, somehow in a mystery God cut away our flesh from our inner man/person/spirit and the Holy Spirit sealed that inner man from the flesh. ( Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30 talks about us being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

That is a quick synopsis but if you are interested I can send you a link where this is talked about in a much fully way.

Again..it's a matter of seeing the new creation in Christ for who we really are now because of Jesus' finished work.

Are you saying Paul had not reached this enlightened state the HGs proclaim or he just wasn't regenerated yet?
Most of Christiandom sees Paul struggle as a Christian (in Rom 7) even with the Holy Spirit. The struggle is ongoing and real not just something we can wave a magic formula over and poof!