Hyper grace

[james57]

Hey james..send me a message with what you are saying ..I find it hard to piece things together from different posts..it's me..not you. I'd rather to sit down and read in one place what the thoughts are so that I can get a clearer understanding of what is being said...it is definitely a complex subject...lol

It is simple. You have just admitted the flesh/sin reigned in Paul in rom7:14-25. So in those verses we agree sin was Paul's master.
According to rom 6:14, sin will not be the Christians master for they are not under law but under grace. Therefore in ch 7:14-25 Paul must have been speaking of when he was under the law.

The reason I emphasised he sinned in his old(Adamic) nature, is because of a couple of posts hrftd wrote earlier.

 

[james57]

Good point! I think he is thinking as a Christian the whole time. I tend to believe he was just outlining the internal thinking of what was happening to him..kinda like setting up the scene of the crime before he gives the solution.

Lol
It wouldn't matter what you were shown concerning this would it, you would never accept it!

 

[james57]

Yes..the flesh did reign.(rom7:14-25).but then he found out the there in no condemnation to those in Christ..about walking according to the Spirit instead of the flesh(ch8)..it's beautiful!

You hit the nail on the head here!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So how did the flesh not reign in the above? The flesh won every time, it dominated Paul, he was its slave

That is explained in the next few verses.

Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh [I am enslaved] to the law of sin. ​Consequently, [there is] now no condemnation for those [who are] in Christ Jesus. Romans 7:24-8:1​

 

[james57]

That is explained in the next few verses.

Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh [I am enslaved] to the law of sin. ​Consequently, [there is] now no condemnation for those [who are] in Christ Jesus. Romans 7:24-8:1​

That doesn't explain it. In verses 14-25 of rom 7 the flesh definitely reigned. You are simply trying to invent theological reasoning to skirt round that. Show me how you can justify the flesh not reigning in the following?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is what Paul the Christian states:

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom 6:14

And he MUST be talking about the Adamic nature, for as you admitted, the other nature does not sin!

And the above is not compatible with rom 7:14-25, for in those verses sin was definitely Paul's master

Before Paul was a Christian, he had no choice but to serve sin. Afterwards, he had a choice because the power of sin had been broken in his life. He could now serve GOD if he so chose. But he still had the ability to sin, and he who sins is the servant of sin, even if it is for only one act.

 

[james57]

That is explained in the next few verses.

Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am enslaved to the law of God, but with my flesh [I am enslaved] to the law of sin. ​Consequently, [there is] now no condemnation for those [who are] in Christ Jesus. Romans 7:24-8:1​

BTW
Don't go into ch 8, Paul is speaking as a Christian there

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That doesn't explain it. In verses 14-25 of rom 7 the flesh definitely reigned. You are simply trying to invent theological reasoning to skirt round that. Show me how you can justify the flesh not reigning in the following?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

Sin reigns in us when we let it. It's our choice. Simple.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

BTW
Don't go into ch 8, Paul is speaking as a Christian there

Nonsense. Man's theology.

 

[james57]

Before Paul was a Christian, he had no choice but to serve sin. Afterwards, he had a choice because the power of sin had been broken in his life. He could now serve GOD if he so chose. But he still had the ability to sin, and he who sins is the servant of sin, even if it is for only one act.

So as a Christian the power of sin had been broken in Paul's life and this was the result??
?




We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree that sin is the master in our flesh but we are not in the flesh..we are in Christ..in the Spirit..in our new nature! So, in our real man created in Christ Jesus is not under the dominion of sin and in fact this new creation cannot sin

I see it as the flesh in our body is not the real inner man. The body is a house. The body is not evil...it has a parasite in it.

It is simple. You have just admitted the flesh/sin reigned in Paul in rom7:14-25. So in those verses we agree sin was Paul's master.
According to rom 6:14, sin will not be the Christians master for they are not under law but under grace. Therefore in ch 7:14-25 Paul must have been speaking of when he was under the law.

The reason I emphasised he sinned in his old(Adamic) nature, is because of a couple of posts hrftd wrote earlier.

 

[james57]

Nonsense. Man's theology.

It is your errant theology, born out of you trying by your own effort to crucify your own flesh. You know you cannot do it, so you have affinity with Paul in ch7:14-25

 

[james57]

I agree that sin is the master in our flesh but we are not in the flesh..we are in Christ..in the Spirit..in our new nature! So, in our real man created in Christ Jesus is not under the dominion of sin and in fact this new creation cannot sin

I see it as the flesh in our body is not the real inner man. The body is a house. The body is not evil...it has a parasite in it.

I see, so when Joseph Prince preaches sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace, what he really means is sin shall be your master in the flesh, but not your new nature which never sinned in the first place. Is that your understanding from reading his book?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So as a Christian the power of sin had been broken in Paul's life and this was the result??
?




We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

Yes that is the result if you choose to obey the flesh. Paul is describing the conflict between the two natures, and how the carnal nature is utterly hopeless without the grace of Christ (no condemnation).

 

[james57]

Yes that is the result if you choose to obey the flesh. Paul is describing the conflict between the two natures, and how the carnal nature is utterly hopeless without the grace of Christ (no condemnation).

So according to your posts(which I am copying to my computer) the result Paul as a mature Christian got was because he chose to obey the flesh.
Thank you for your views on this subject
Paul was choosing to obey his flesh(all his Christian life) when he didn't have to because sins power had been broken in his life, yet he insisted in his letters people followed after the spirit not the flesh.
That is where your human intellect has taken you, because you rely on yourself to crucify your own flesh

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is your errant theology, born out of you trying by your own effort to crucify your own flesh. You know you cannot do it, so you have affinity with Paul in ch7:14-25

You claim to eschew man's theology, yet verse numberings are that very thing. And they are one man's numbering. The original writings didn't have verse numberings, chapter separations, sentences designated by punctuation, or even spaces between words.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So according to your posts(which I am copying to my computer) the result Paul as a mature Christian got was because he chose to obey the flesh.
Thank you for your views on this subject
Paul was choosing to obey his flesh(all his Christian life) when he didn't have to because sins power had been broken in his life, yet he insisted in his letters people followed after the flesh not the spirit.
That is where your human intellect has taken you, because you rely on yourself to crucify your own flesh

And what causes you to sin when you do? The devil made you do it? No, it's your choice.

 

[james57]

And what causes you to sin when you do? The devil made you do it? No, it's your choice.

As Lynn wrote, and frankly any Christian who understands the basics of the faith should know. There is a difference between a Christian committing sin for none are perfect and a Christian being a slave of sin, sin is their master
Sadly, those who hold to theological doctrines above all else, often are blinded to the spiritual reality

 

[james57]

And what causes you to sin when you do? The devil made you do it? No, it's your choice.

But according to you though the power of sin was broken in Pauls life, he didn't just sin a little, he was swamped in sin. He couldn't do good, only evil. He couldn't do the good he wanted to do but only what he hated to do. He was sold as a slave to sin, and this when sins power had been broken in his life


Im sorry, but that is just not a credible doctrine

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that the failure to understand the new creation in Christ causes us to fail to see what really happened to us when we were on the cross with Jesus..when we rose again with Him.

The failure of not understanding the circumcision of the heart and flesh that occurs with the circumcision of Christ...causes all kinds of ideas to come to our natural minds.

The failure to see that the flesh is not the real us now. It has a parasite called sin in it. If we yield to it..bad stuff happens..if we yield to the new creation - Spirit we experience life and peace.

Paul said in 2 Cor 5:16 - from now on we know no man according to the flesh.

Then in verse 17 = If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away ( old man in Adam ). Behold ( look intently ) all things have become new.

Then we do this now that we are new creations in Christ.

Colossians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore since you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Some things above are ..He is our righteousness, He is our Life, I have the mind of Christ. I am a new creation in Him! When we "see" who we really are in Him..it transforms us in out outward behavior. It renews our minds to the things of God.

It's beautiful! Our salvation is great. He is mighty!