Hyper grace

[james57]

Sin is rebellion against the revealed will of GOD. GOD's revealed will is to believe in his son and love his people. Where was that said under the law of the old covenant?

Sin is( not was) the transgression of the law 1 john 3:4

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sin is( not was) the transgression of the law 1 john 3:4

Sin is lawlessness. Not believing in Christ and not loving his brothers is lawlessness. That is the will of GOD.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ... And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21, 23

Lawlessness
G458 ἀνομία anomia (an-om-ee'-ah) n.
1. illegality​

 

[james57]

Sin is lawlessness. Not believing in Christ and not loving his brothers is lawlessness. That is the will of GOD.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ... And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21, 23

Lawlessness
G458 ἀνομία anomia (an-om-ee'-ah) n.
1. illegality​

Oh dear. You cannot change the definition of sin according to what the bible plainly states.
Of course a person has to accept Christ as their saviour.
But john plainly tells us what the definition of sin is
This is coming across as you changing your beliefs on grace.
We are called to follow after the holy spirit. As you ceaselessly state we do not always perfectly follow after the holy spirit, a fruit of the spirit I love. However our position in Gods family I not threatened as you keep admitting it isn't.

You cant invent a new doctrine here it wont work

 

[james57]

Anyway it is very late here and i am very tired. I will respond to anymore posts later
Goodnight

 

[james57]

Sin is lawlessness. Not believing in Christ and not loving his brothers is lawlessness. That is the will of GOD.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ... And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21, 23

Lawlessness
G458 ἀνομία anomia (an-om-ee'-ah) n.
1. illegality​

Sorry, I was so tired earlier, found it so hard to keep responding.

Ok, in the above you provided the words of Jesus to support your new view heaven is obtained by the work we do.

But I am confused. To do the will of the father would be to do the good we know we should do wouldn't it?

As you are adamant Paul is speaking as a mature christian in rom 7:14-25 do you believe Paul could not attain to heaven?

For he stated in those verses he could not do the good he wanted to do but rather what he hated to do he did
He could not do good, but rather the evil he did not want to do this he kept on doing
He was sold as a slave to sin/ the prisoner to sin.
Therefore, according to your quote from Matthew, was Paul the christian condemned?

 

[PeterJens]

Peter
You have spoken of sinless perfection as being attainable
John tells us if we claim to be without sin the truth is not in us

The problem with language is one word can mean different things. Without sin can mean without a history of sinful acts or without the ability to walk in righteousness.

Paul is obviously talking about sinners walking in righteousness day after day.

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1


I would say this is like riding a bicycle. We are commited to ride, though we may fail occasionally, our devotion is to riding.

Your approach is forget the bicycle and do what you want, because your heart will make you do the right thing.
Now following this logic you are already perfect, because your heart will always lead you to do the right thing.
But what you are saying is you are actually still a slave to sin and their is no victory through the cross, because sin and guilty always will be there. I would call that a denial of the cross and His work. Hyper defeat rather than hyper grace.

But when I break down the language it is the pharisee in you that is raising the bar so high your guilt is being human, getting annoyed at someone, saying something when you would rather say something else, frustration at not achieving things you are aiming at. But all these things are not sin, they are who you are, who you fail to love and accept.

Some have said I am now lowering the bar so low, it is sinful. No I am saying the bar is about real harm to people, real damage not imagined damage.

One contributor went so far as to say even talking about the moral law was self condemning. That is called guilt and running away from guilt or hyper legalism in their minds running riot. That is not walking in grace. Paul knew all the law and would talk about it, and walking in the Spirit and walking in righteousness with a clear conscience. But you guys are not close to this realilty, that is why I find it hard to feel spiritual communion with you, because you also deny Jesus's words, calling that the old covenant, which is heresy and a denial of faith.

 

[james57]

The law changed with the covenant. Under the old covenant, Israel sinned against the law. Under the new covenant, we sin against the light. We were given a new spirit and told to abide in the light. When we don't, we sin against the light. You can look back to the cross for forgiveness, but it will point you to the living one who gives it.

Lets look at sin and righteousness

What was considered a persons righteousness under the old covenant?

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness deut6:25

Paul said:

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness rom10:4

What did Paul consider a christians righteousness to be under the new covenant?


But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known to which the law and the prophets testify.
This righteousness from God comes through faith I Jesus Christ to all who believe rom3:21&22

How did john define sin under the new covenant?

Everyone who sins breaks the law, for sin is lawlessness1john3:4

Perfect, sin is breaking the law/ lawlessness, which means either term will do, therefore the twenty translations you previously gave of this verse are all accurate for if i remember correctly the all used one term or the other.

A christians righteousness/ rightstanding/justification before God is faith in Christ, from first to last( rom1:17) the whole of their christian life

 

[james57]

The problem with language is one word can mean different things. Without sin can mean without a history of sinful acts or without the ability to walk in righteousness.

Paul is obviously talking about sinners walking in righteousness day after day.

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1


I would say this is like riding a bicycle. We are commited to ride, though we may fail occasionally, our devotion is to riding.

Your approach is forget the bicycle and do what you want, because your heart will make you do the right thing.
Now following this logic you are already perfect, because your heart will always lead you to do the right thing.
But what you are saying is you are actually still a slave to sin and their is no victory through the cross, because sin and guilty always will be there. I would call that a denial of the cross and His work. Hyper defeat rather than hyper grace.

But when I break down the language it is the pharisee in you that is raising the bar so high your guilt is being human, getting annoyed at someone, saying something when you would rather say something else, frustration at not achieving things you are aiming at. But all these things are not sin, they are who you are, who you fail to love and accept.

Some have said I am now lowering the bar so low, it is sinful. No I am saying the bar is about real harm to people, real damage not imagined damage.

One contributor went so far as to say even talking about the moral law was self condemning. That is called guilt and running away from guilt or hyper legalism in their minds running riot. That is not walking in grace. Paul knew all the law and would talk about it, and walking in the Spirit and walking in righteousness with a clear conscience. But you guys are not close to this realilty, that is why I find it hard to feel spiritual communion with you, because you also deny Jesus's words, calling that the old covenant, which is heresy and a denial of faith.

I read up to where you said:
My approach is do what i want because my heart will make me do the right thing

Could you produce a post of mine where I stated that, then we can continue

 

[PeterJens]

I read up to where you said:
My approach is do what i want because my heart will make me do the right thing

Could you produce a post of mine where I stated that, then we can continue

I am probably quoting a position grace took. But the point I am making is about a theological construct.
We assume a lot into each statement of scripture, but often do not ask about alternatives.

Jesus is saying something very radical. By following Him you will become someone different. To do this you have to believe the process is worthwhile, the walk is real, and one is prepared to go.

Now many walk as if it is a set of rules or trying very hard. What I have been aware of is this is actually impossible because it is fundamentally who I am that matters, and how that changes. But without accepting we walk into righteousness, you excuse sin.

Do you accept the idea of the two covenants, before and cross and after the cross? Do you think that your walk is irrelevant to salvation and sanctification?

 

[james57]

The problem with language is one word can mean different things. Without sin can mean without a history of sinful acts or without the ability to walk in righteousness.

Paul is obviously talking about sinners walking in righteousness day after day.

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1


I would say this is like riding a bicycle. We are commited to ride, though we may fail occasionally, our devotion is to riding.

Your approach is forget the bicycle and do what you want, because your heart will make you do the right thing.
Now following this logic you are already perfect, because your heart will always lead you to do the right thing.
But what you are saying is you are actually still a slave to sin and their is no victory through the cross, because sin and guilty always will be there. I would call that a denial of the cross and His work. Hyper defeat rather than hyper grace.

But when I break down the language it is the pharisee in you that is raising the bar so high your guilt is being human, getting annoyed at someone, saying something when you would rather say something else, frustration at not achieving things you are aiming at. But all these things are not sin, they are who you are, who you fail to love and accept.

Some have said I am now lowering the bar so low, it is sinful. No I am saying the bar is about real harm to people, real damage not imagined damage.

One contributor went so far as to say even talking about the moral law was self condemning. That is called guilt and running away from guilt or hyper legalism in their minds running riot. That is not walking in grace. Paul knew all the law and would talk about it, and walking in the Spirit and walking in righteousness with a clear conscience. But you guys are not close to this realilty, that is why I find it hard to feel spiritual communion with you, because you also deny Jesus's words, calling that the old covenant, which is heresy and a denial of faith.

Though I haven't read much of your post for the reason given I will give a few thoughts. True grace is only true grace if it I unconditional. Paul's core Gospel message hinges on a person knowing they only have one righteousness / justification before God the whole of their lives- faith I Christ. It is in THIS knowledge sin shall not be your master.
However to the analytical mind of man this is impossible to accept, so he always adds a but.
You have grace, Jesus is your righteousness, but.....
And by adding that but he has removed true grace from grace. The natural instinct of man is, you get what you deserve, you get what you strive for. And it I natural to man to want to believe he has at least I part earnt what he receives in the christian faith. However, once again, pure grace is a casualty of this.
Paul's core gospel message can be summed up I one verse of scripture:

Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

There us no but in that verse. When you know un your heart there I no but you seek to do works solely out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. Add the but and you do them at least in part to attain heaven. God requires works done for the former reason, not the latter. The Pharisees works prove this to be true, for their works were not accepted

 

[PeterJens]

Point - I am trying to understand differences because they matter.

Jesus came that we might walk with him, out of choice, because we love Him. It is our walk, though empowered by His Spirit, walking in His grace and being set in righteousness.

Is this peoples experience or is it self condemnation and failure?

 

[james57]

I am probably quoting a position grace took. But the point I am making is about a theological construct.
We assume a lot into each statement of scripture, but often do not ask about alternatives.

Jesus is saying something very radical. By following Him you will become someone different. To do this you have to believe the process is worthwhile, the walk is real, and one is prepared to go.

Now many walk as if it is a set of rules or trying very hard. What I have been aware of is this is actually impossible because it is fundamentally who I am that matters, and how that changes. But without accepting we walk into righteousness, you excuse sin.

Do you accept the idea of the two covenants, before and cross and after the cross? Do you think that your walk is irrelevant to salvation and sanctification?

If you want to understand about righteousness you MUST read beyond the Gospels. In john 16 Jesus gave Tha subject as an example of there was much more he wanted to tell his disciples but they could not as yet bear such knowledge.

The difference in the two covenants is:
1) under the old one you were not born again/ the holy spirit did not dwell in you as he does under the new covenant
2) there was a law of righteousness in place( though no one attained heaven by being truly righteous)
3) obedience was by looking to the literal letter, not faith in Christ


Obedience under the new covenant is achieved by faith( rom1:5) through the sanctification of the holy spirit ( rom 15:16) however, man tries to achieve obedience by his best efforts. As man cannot possibly achieve the results faith in Christ, and the transforming power of the holy spirit can, he doesn't see the change he desperately wants to see.

How is it not a licence to do what you want if obedience I not by your own effort but faith? Because it truly I a two part covenant.

The first part cuts out the licence to sin, because - and only because that has happened you get the second part
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
The christian has an obligation to God under the new covenant. To trust Christ for obedience through the spirits sanctification

 

[PeterJens]

True grace is only true grace if it I unconditional

Your position is universalism. Everyone is just forgiven, slate wiped clean. The only problem with sin is God calls it sin. Take that away and everything is just dandy.

Following Jesus is always conditional. Do you really think the temple, Israel, the purchase from slavery, the battles of people over who is faithful to God, Gods grace and patience and final judgement, are summed up in, you are just forgiven.

Let us start with the first condition.
1. You must believe

If you do not have belief in Jesus, that he is the Son of God, given for all, for the forgiveness of sins, you faith is in vain.
This is a personal action, a conviction. Now we could argue as Jesus says, unless the Father calls you, gives you birth from heaven, you cannot even answer, but from our perspective, you must believe.

2. You must act

Repentance is admitting your failure before God for your wrong actions and committing to follow Jesus and His ways.
Without walking in Jesus's ways there is no change or being in the Kingdom. It is the fruit of faith.

3. A changed heart

You will find your heart has changed, things become different. You can sow to this heart or sow rebellion which will destroy the heart and kill your relationship. The parable of the vine demonstrates this exact principle, over time not abiding in the vine will destroy you.

4. Fellowship

Actively abiding in the vine, in the word, in the Spirit, in Praise and worship, in intercession powers everything.

Now these do not justify the believer, but they are a chosen walk, without which most cease to be in the Lord.
Somehow your "but" throws this all away, so I would call it heresy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Good point Peter.

We maintain that it is impossible to love God on our own. We love Jesus because He first loved us. It must originate from God and not us. He is the source.

That's why when Jesus said.."You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength "..this is impossible for us to do. This is why Jesus came and took our place.

Jesus did that for us as He fulfilled the law.

We maintain that it is faith in His finished work alone is the true Christian position.

It's His life flowing out of us that produces "fruit" that man would see in outward change.

All of us agree what the "fruit" of a Christian should look like..The question is..how does it come? By abiding in Him or by our own self-effort.

Who is to say if a believer is living from the life of Christ is them or by "their self-efforts? I don't think it's our job to judge as when we go through the fire - the work will be revealed. Only what was of Christ will remain.

We all want the same thing..the love of God flowing out of us to a hurting world!

Point - I am trying to understand differences because they matter.

Jesus came that we might walk with him, out of choice, because we love Him. It is our walk, though empowered by His Spirit, walking in His grace and being set in righteousness.

Is this peoples experience or is it self condemnation and failure?

 

[PeterJens]

The difference in the two covenants is:

I think Paul is arguing there is no difference between the two covenants, one is the shadow of the other.
The old covenant was expressed as being part of Israel, how sin was dealt with daily, weekly, monthly, annually. It was not legalistic, it defined what was sin and what was not. It specified that the people of Israel were regarded as righteous.

But the righteousness was imputed through faith not through sacrifice.
Now to walk in this righteousness we do not need to become Jews, we just need to put our faith in Jesus.

I just realised something. God regarded Israel as righteous. He stuck by them through pure rebellion, insanity, evil, taking and killing the prophets, and still He blessed them.

I am aware that you do not regard I understand the gospel at all. Now this is strange. Is this your attitude to all evangelicals? To many I would be regarded as a theologian.

Are you a Joseph Prince convert?

 

[Grace777x70]

It is all in the "lens" that we look at the word of God.

Are they conditions or are they descriptions.

"If you love Me , you will keep My commandments"

One lens is = a condition = keeping My commandments will prove you love Me

Grace lens = description = Because you love Me , you will keep My commandments...this is a description of a believer that knows the love of God for them and "knowing" that love draws out the love of God out of us to Him and to others..

It's all in the "lens"

For example ..take Col 1:23..it says IF you continue in the faith...

AT Robertson says this..

If so be that ye continue in the faith ([FONT="Gentium" !important][I][SIZE=5]ei ge epimenete tēi pistei[/SIZE][/I][/FONT][/COLOR]). Condition of the first class (determined as fulfilled),
Word Pictures in the New Testament.
A lot of times this "If" is actually a "since" as many greek scholars have pointed out.


[QUOTE="PeterJens, post: 2392788"]Your position is universalism. Everyone is just forgiven, slate wiped clean. The only problem with sin is God calls it sin. Take that away and everything is just dandy.

Following Jesus is always conditional. Do you really think the temple, Israel, the purchase from slavery, the battles of people over who is faithful to God, Gods grace and patience and final judgement, are summed up in, you are just forgiven.

Let us start with the first condition.
1. You must believe

If you do not have belief in Jesus, that he is the Son of God, given for all, for the forgiveness of sins, you faith is in vain.
This is a personal action, a conviction. Now we could argue as Jesus says, unless the Father calls you, gives you birth from heaven, you cannot even answer, but from our perspective, you must believe.

2. You must act

Repentance is admitting your failure before God for your wrong actions and committing to follow Jesus and His ways.
Without walking in Jesus's ways there is no change or being in the Kingdom. It is the fruit of faith.

3. A changed heart

You will find your heart has changed, things become different. You can sow to this heart or sow rebellion which will destroy the heart and kill your relationship. The parable of the vine demonstrates this exact principle, over time not abiding in the vine will destroy you.

4. Fellowship

Actively abiding in the vine, in the word, in the Spirit, in Praise and worship, in intercession powers everything.

Now these do not justify the believer, but they are a chosen walk, without which most cease to be in the Lord.
Somehow your "but" throws this all away, so I would call it heresy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a difference in a universal atonement and universalism..

All are included..as Jesus took away the sin of the world...but will they accept it?

I could say to a room with 100 people in it. I put $10,000 in all your bank accounts but unless they exercised faith and responded..they would not receive the money to use. Does them not responding negate the truth of the money that is already theirs?

 

[james57]

Your position is universalism. Everyone is just forgiven, slate wiped clean. The only problem with sin is God calls it sin. Take that away and everything is just dandy.

Following Jesus is always conditional. Do you really think the temple, Israel, the purchase from slavery, the battles of people over who is faithful to God, Gods grace and patience and final judgement, are summed up in, you are just forgiven.

Let us start with the first condition.
1. You must believe

If you do not have belief in Jesus, that he is the Son of God, given for all, for the forgiveness of sins, you faith is in vain.
This is a personal action, a conviction. Now we could argue as Jesus says, unless the Father calls you, gives you birth from heaven, you cannot even answer, but from our perspective, you must believe.

2. You must act

Repentance is admitting your failure before God for your wrong actions and committing to follow Jesus and His ways.
Without walking in Jesus's ways there is no change or being in the Kingdom. It is the fruit of faith.

3. A changed heart

You will find your heart has changed, things become different. You can sow to this heart or sow rebellion which will destroy the heart and kill your relationship. The parable of the vine demonstrates this exact principle, over time not abiding in the vine will destroy you.

4. Fellowship

Actively abiding in the vine, in the word, in the Spirit, in Praise and worship, in intercession powers everything.

Now these do not justify the believer, but they are a chosen walk, without which most cease to be in the Lord.
Somehow your "but" throws this all away, so I would call it heresy.

When I am accused of heresy on sites like these it always makes me feel most assured I am following the truth

Point 1) faith to believe I not of yourselves I is the gift of God lest any man should boast eph2:9
And as you quoted, no one can come to Christ unless the father draws him

Point2). You have been drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, been convicted of your sin, repentance I the natural consequence. I don't view repentance as a work.

Point3) the christian has a changed heart for God has changed it( ezekiel36:26&27 heb 10:16&17). They have been born again of the holy spirit. They in their heart want to obey God because of what God has done for them.

I WILL give you a new heart and put a new spirit I you. I WILL remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I WILL put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and keep my laws Ezekiel 36:26&27

It is all of what God WILL DO not what man will do.

Point 4) obedience comes from faith( rom1:5)
The christian must put no confidence in the flesh( themself) phil3:3

Apart from Christ you can do nothing john 15:5


What is the result of this?
God gets ALL the glory. That is what he wants and that is what those who truly love him in their hearts want him to have

 

[james57]

I think Paul is arguing there is no difference between the two covenants, one is the shadow of the other.
The old covenant was expressed as being part of Israel, how sin was dealt with daily, weekly, monthly, annually. It was not legalistic, it defined what was sin and what was not. It specified that the people of Israel were regarded as righteous.

But the righteousness was imputed through faith not through sacrifice.
Now to walk in this righteousness we do not need to become Jews, we just need to put our faith in Jesus.

I just realised something. God regarded Israel as righteous. He stuck by them through pure rebellion, insanity, evil, taking and killing the prophets, and still He blessed them.

I am aware that you do not regard I understand the gospel at all. Now this is strange. Is this your attitude to all evangelicals? To many I would be regarded as a theologian.

Are you a Joseph Prince convert?

Paul is arguing there I no difference between the two covenants??

He has made us competent of a new covenant- not of the letter but of the spirit, for the letter kills but the spirit gives life 2cor3:6

 

[james57]

I think Paul is arguing there is no difference between the two covenants, one is the shadow of the other.
The old covenant was expressed as being part of Israel, how sin was dealt with daily, weekly, monthly, annually. It was not legalistic, it defined what was sin and what was not. It specified that the people of Israel were regarded as righteous.

But the righteousness was imputed through faith not through sacrifice.
Now to walk in this righteousness we do not need to become Jews, we just need to put our faith in Jesus.

I just realised something. God regarded Israel as righteous. He stuck by them through pure rebellion, insanity, evil, taking and killing the prophets, and still He blessed them.

I am aware that you do not regard I understand the gospel at all. Now this is strange. Is this your attitude to all evangelicals? To many I would be regarded as a theologian.

Are you a Joseph Prince convert?

I was raised evangelical/ Pentecostal. Do you want me to explain what happened?

A well known Baptist minister in the UK stated 85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification / sanctification process. From my personal experience I would accept what he said to be the truth