Hyper grace
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L
The major tilt tilt ah ha moment for me about Grace was that the ONLY way to get saved is by God's GIFT of salvation through His Son Jesus. Knowing when I came to Jesus way back when in the 80s hearing that I can't EARN God's love., can't come to Him without Jesus no matter how much I tried or even wanted to. What a GREAT relief!! I had tried as a young Catholic girl to be good. Hearing the Gospel for the first time in John 3:16-19
For God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
He who believes in Him is not judged, he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
Speaking as a very religious individual since the time I was aware of life., who tried to be a good girl to my parents. Who tried to do good in school... And seemed to miss the mark every time. But kept trying and hoping God would see I reeeeeeeallllly was trying. Even if no one saw or understood how hard I tried and failed., God knew how much I wanted to do well., He saw me in my failed attempts and my striving and weeping at the failed attempts for years.
Finding out about Grace., free gift of love and acceptance from the MOST important ONE even above my parents who I so tried to get to love me back and it was a hit and miss at best with them. With people and parents it was all performance based.
Later after hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus, went to church and soon learned we get the free gift, but then came the mess up word (BUT)... "we must maintain it. There is no free ride... NOW THE REAL WORK BEGINS and we are now set on a path of works. Keep God happy and everyone else". Although I was saved and a life changing transaction took place between Jesus and me., I was soon entangled in religion again. Work to get.
For years I walked as a saved person who was trying to maintain my saved position. For God to reeeealllly love me., I had to work work work and show Him how much I appreciated what Jesus did. I exchanged one religion for another. The Bible says INSTEAD.... If you began in grace, how can you try and live in works??? We do not grow in works and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ... We grow in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Grace is not the milk of the Word as some here have said. Grace is something we NEED to apply in our walk as mature believers. It is the reason we are Christians., Jesus gave to us undeserved love., Unmerited., un attainable in ourselves. He just GAVE it FREE. We could not earn Jesus sacrifice for us.,we cannot pay for it once it is given., it was motivated by Love. A love we don't have in ourselves. It's supernatural. It is stronger than sin and failure.
We are admonished to grow in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. If you have a working understanding of grace., you also have a working ability to be holy and set apart. Grace and holiness go hand in hand. As a preacher said., having grace and holiness is like having water and wet. One is not exclusive of the other. And yet have many of us Christians been taught this? I never was aware of this until learning about Grace needed in the daily life as a Christian person. It always points to Jesus.,not to our works for Jesus.
So this whole question about grace being an excuse to sin is not applicable if you truly know the meaning of grace. If you want to sin and think grace is for that, you don't understand grace and you will not have a working knowledge or walk in and of it in your life. If grace does not cause you to be holy you don't have grace., you have a mis understanding of it and you need to learn the truth.
That is why it is so important for us believers to share the truth with one another. The Joy of our salvation is based on beholding Jesus not ourselves. Grace teaches us how to live godly soberly and righteously. A righteous person will be and do righteously. Someone who has a working knowledge of grace will be able to accept the promises in the Bible as their own.
If we walk out our Christian life in our own strength and ability we can't have joy that lasts. In our human-ness we grow faint at times., we fail the test at times., we are limited. But in Christ we claim grace., imputed righteousness for our lives. Our position is secure because it is not held together by us.
It is IN Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. He that has begun a good work in you WILL perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
If we do not have JOY in our life., we don't understand what salvation is and how grace is at it's core.
We cannot deserve or earn Jesus. He comes to us apart from our worthiness. That is not human reasoning. That is the meat of the Word. That is growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is what enables us to mount up with wings as eagles., to run and not be weary to not faint. It's the good news., the too good to be true good news but it is true in Christ.
For God so loved the world, He GAVE His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
He who believes in Him is not judged, he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.
Speaking as a very religious individual since the time I was aware of life., who tried to be a good girl to my parents. Who tried to do good in school... And seemed to miss the mark every time. But kept trying and hoping God would see I reeeeeeeallllly was trying. Even if no one saw or understood how hard I tried and failed., God knew how much I wanted to do well., He saw me in my failed attempts and my striving and weeping at the failed attempts for years.
Finding out about Grace., free gift of love and acceptance from the MOST important ONE even above my parents who I so tried to get to love me back and it was a hit and miss at best with them. With people and parents it was all performance based.
Later after hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus, went to church and soon learned we get the free gift, but then came the mess up word (BUT)... "we must maintain it. There is no free ride... NOW THE REAL WORK BEGINS and we are now set on a path of works. Keep God happy and everyone else". Although I was saved and a life changing transaction took place between Jesus and me., I was soon entangled in religion again. Work to get.
For years I walked as a saved person who was trying to maintain my saved position. For God to reeeealllly love me., I had to work work work and show Him how much I appreciated what Jesus did. I exchanged one religion for another. The Bible says INSTEAD.... If you began in grace, how can you try and live in works??? We do not grow in works and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ... We grow in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Grace is not the milk of the Word as some here have said. Grace is something we NEED to apply in our walk as mature believers. It is the reason we are Christians., Jesus gave to us undeserved love., Unmerited., un attainable in ourselves. He just GAVE it FREE. We could not earn Jesus sacrifice for us.,we cannot pay for it once it is given., it was motivated by Love. A love we don't have in ourselves. It's supernatural. It is stronger than sin and failure.
We are admonished to grow in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. If you have a working understanding of grace., you also have a working ability to be holy and set apart. Grace and holiness go hand in hand. As a preacher said., having grace and holiness is like having water and wet. One is not exclusive of the other. And yet have many of us Christians been taught this? I never was aware of this until learning about Grace needed in the daily life as a Christian person. It always points to Jesus.,not to our works for Jesus.
So this whole question about grace being an excuse to sin is not applicable if you truly know the meaning of grace. If you want to sin and think grace is for that, you don't understand grace and you will not have a working knowledge or walk in and of it in your life. If grace does not cause you to be holy you don't have grace., you have a mis understanding of it and you need to learn the truth.
That is why it is so important for us believers to share the truth with one another. The Joy of our salvation is based on beholding Jesus not ourselves. Grace teaches us how to live godly soberly and righteously. A righteous person will be and do righteously. Someone who has a working knowledge of grace will be able to accept the promises in the Bible as their own.
If we walk out our Christian life in our own strength and ability we can't have joy that lasts. In our human-ness we grow faint at times., we fail the test at times., we are limited. But in Christ we claim grace., imputed righteousness for our lives. Our position is secure because it is not held together by us.
It is IN Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. He that has begun a good work in you WILL perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
If we do not have JOY in our life., we don't understand what salvation is and how grace is at it's core.
We cannot deserve or earn Jesus. He comes to us apart from our worthiness. That is not human reasoning. That is the meat of the Word. That is growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is what enables us to mount up with wings as eagles., to run and not be weary to not faint. It's the good news., the too good to be true good news but it is true in Christ.
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Great post!
Most seem to go to one extreme or the other, you don't, you get the mix spot on IMHO. It is all of Jesus, nothing of us as we trust him and rely on the spirits sanctification. Under grace and truth results follow, if we step aside from following the true path we bring unhappiness on ourselves.
We do not need fear a lack of performance based actions, for Jesus I our righteousness we have none of our own
As I said, you get the correct mix spot on, well done!
I too shed many tears and had much frustration at constantly missing the mark in my youth.
And the love received(if it can be called love) was performances based, even from parents.
Most seem to go to one extreme or the other, you don't, you get the mix spot on IMHO. It is all of Jesus, nothing of us as we trust him and rely on the spirits sanctification. Under grace and truth results follow, if we step aside from following the true path we bring unhappiness on ourselves.
We do not need fear a lack of performance based actions, for Jesus I our righteousness we have none of our own
As I said, you get the correct mix spot on, well done!
I too shed many tears and had much frustration at constantly missing the mark in my youth.
And the love received(if it can be called love) was performances based, even from parents.
L
Hey Kohelet, I'm sorry you are finding the thread to be 'disjointed' At times it may seem to go off on a rabbit trail but it's like a discussion inside a topic in the discussion like between Grace777 and James57. And that is good too I think.
My take on this is sort of put down in the last loooooooong post. There are many topics in this discussion and imo they are interesting since finding out about the daily application of grace in the life of a saved person.
I'm also seeing that some people just don't have an interest in the subject for their personal life. As for me? I'm all over it and each day it applies to what is happening in my life and can't get enough of it. I believe that the proper use of grace is not going to cause anyone to go off sinning. The HolySpirit is in the believer and answers the seekers questions as they open the Bible and look for it. Seek and you shall find...knock and it shall be opened ... I believe that applies also to our questions as we are seeking direction in life.
I would highly recommend Pastor Joseph Prince's books on grace. IMO he has done a lot to open up the subject of grace again in America. There are many naysayers about this topic and others associated with it like the gifts of the Spirit. I don't know how anyone, (if they take the time to hear what is being said) would not have their questions answered clearly. I'm sorry there is such suspicion in the family of believers. But I'm seeing that it has always been this way and maybe always will be but one can hope.
Blessings to you Kohelet, see you in the Bible study room sometime!!
Hey Kohelet, I'm sorry you are finding the thread to be 'disjointed' At times it may seem to go off on a rabbit trail but it's like a discussion inside a topic in the discussion like between Grace777 and James57. And that is good too I think.
My take on this is sort of put down in the last loooooooong post. There are many topics in this discussion and imo they are interesting since finding out about the daily application of grace in the life of a saved person.
I'm also seeing that some people just don't have an interest in the subject for their personal life. As for me? I'm all over it and each day it applies to what is happening in my life and can't get enough of it. I believe that the proper use of grace is not going to cause anyone to go off sinning. The HolySpirit is in the believer and answers the seekers questions as they open the Bible and look for it. Seek and you shall find...knock and it shall be opened ... I believe that applies also to our questions as we are seeking direction in life.
I would highly recommend Pastor Joseph Prince's books on grace. IMO he has done a lot to open up the subject of grace again in America. There are many naysayers about this topic and others associated with it like the gifts of the Spirit. I don't know how anyone, (if they take the time to hear what is being said) would not have their questions answered clearly. I'm sorry there is such suspicion in the family of believers. But I'm seeing that it has always been this way and maybe always will be but one can hope. Blessings to you Kohelet, see you in the Bible study room sometime!!
My take on this is sort of put down in the last loooooooong post. There are many topics in this discussion and imo they are interesting since finding out about the daily application of grace in the life of a saved person.
I'm also seeing that some people just don't have an interest in the subject for their personal life. As for me? I'm all over it and each day it applies to what is happening in my life and can't get enough of it. I believe that the proper use of grace is not going to cause anyone to go off sinning. The HolySpirit is in the believer and answers the seekers questions as they open the Bible and look for it. Seek and you shall find...knock and it shall be opened ... I believe that applies also to our questions as we are seeking direction in life.
I would highly recommend Pastor Joseph Prince's books on grace. IMO he has done a lot to open up the subject of grace again in America. There are many naysayers about this topic and others associated with it like the gifts of the Spirit. I don't know how anyone, (if they take the time to hear what is being said) would not have their questions answered clearly. I'm sorry there is such suspicion in the family of believers. But I'm seeing that it has always been this way and maybe always will be but one can hope.
Blessings to you Kohelet, see you in the Bible study room sometime!! The part within This discussion that fascinates me the most is that under the law you are a greater sinner than under Grace. concerning that: This doesn't have to mean someone under law gets drunk every night, has multiple affairs, swears like a trooper etc. The Pharisees of Jesus day I am sure avoided those things. But the more in earnest you are to be justified by the law the more you must tear the heart of the Gospel out of your life. Jesus said the Pharisees tithed down to their last mint, dill and cumin but neglected the love of God in the process. If it I all about how good you can be, you will neglect the love, mercy and compassion of God for you, you don't need it, Tha is irrelevant to your faith, for your Christianity hinges on your performance, not Gods love for you. And when you neglect Gods love, you neglect love for others too
Just my take on it
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I was talking to a friend in church today and he related a series of responses to everything he does. His mind after the event or interaction is always, "I could have done better, said this or that, not put this point but said this point."
So I wonder if what most people are condemning themselves over is actually insecurity and a belief that they are not ok, but need to be different. In this situation, grace does not even come to bare, it is just accepting yourself for who you are and how you express yourself.
So when people say we are sinners, this is translated into we are failures and never walk righteously with the Lord.
Those who talk about laws, precepts and standards are legalists, because lack of self acceptance is translated into the law condemning the individual and never can a human become truly pure and holy.
Now I walk forever with the Lord in grace, because I am never worthy in myself, it is the foundation of love, and my desire is to echo love from my heart, not to earn love, but because I love. I know how deep rooted the rejection of others is, and how over very small behaviours, we condemn and reject others, but that is learnt behaviour, things that we raise as too important that Jesus can work on in our lives.
Hyper grace has created in some acceptance of sin, though some here may not take that position. As soon as you dump everything before the cross as old covenant you have fallen into this trap.
In essence for all eternity we will have things to work on, but I suspect that is part of love and the nature of communion and sharing.
In my heart I do have serious issues with those who feel they can condemn so easily those walking in faith because they in the past took rules and self justification too heart. That is why Hyper-grace is an issue, and the reinterpretation of parts of scripture away from christian tradition is wrong.
So I wonder if what most people are condemning themselves over is actually insecurity and a belief that they are not ok, but need to be different. In this situation, grace does not even come to bare, it is just accepting yourself for who you are and how you express yourself.
So when people say we are sinners, this is translated into we are failures and never walk righteously with the Lord.
Those who talk about laws, precepts and standards are legalists, because lack of self acceptance is translated into the law condemning the individual and never can a human become truly pure and holy.
Now I walk forever with the Lord in grace, because I am never worthy in myself, it is the foundation of love, and my desire is to echo love from my heart, not to earn love, but because I love. I know how deep rooted the rejection of others is, and how over very small behaviours, we condemn and reject others, but that is learnt behaviour, things that we raise as too important that Jesus can work on in our lives.
Hyper grace has created in some acceptance of sin, though some here may not take that position. As soon as you dump everything before the cross as old covenant you have fallen into this trap.
In essence for all eternity we will have things to work on, but I suspect that is part of love and the nature of communion and sharing.
In my heart I do have serious issues with those who feel they can condemn so easily those walking in faith because they in the past took rules and self justification too heart. That is why Hyper-grace is an issue, and the reinterpretation of parts of scripture away from christian tradition is wrong.
Exactly..1 John 1:8 is saying to the gnostics (who did not believe there was such a thing as sin because there is no material world..just the spiritual)..if you say there is no sin in you then the truth is not in them. John in 1John1:1 starts off telling them that Jesus did come in the flesh and they handled Him...He is not a spirit that came...as they believed.. the gnostics believed they had no sin and therefore did not need to come to Christ to confess that they did indeed sins.....just as we all acknowledged when we came to the Lord...1 John 1:9 tells them how to come to Christ.
They had no truth in them because they did not have Christ who is truth!
Even us born again Christians have "sin" in our flesh which in the members of our body. Sin for the believer is confined to the flesh. We have no sin in our new creation, our inner man. and indeed cannot sin as 1John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 state.
They had no truth in them because they did not have Christ who is truth!
Even us born again Christians have "sin" in our flesh which in the members of our body. Sin for the believer is confined to the flesh. We have no sin in our new creation, our inner man. and indeed cannot sin as 1John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18 state.
LOL...I don't remember that in the book...Hey..I confess to God when I have sinned...I say...Lord that was wrong ..that was a sin...that is not who I am in Christ. I run to the Father and declare what His Son has done for me. Talk with Him about everything.
I do not confess to Him to get forgiven or use it as a bar of soap. He's already forgiven me. Our Lord's blood speaks of better things. If in the Old Covenant one day of bringing a lamb would covers year's worth of sins..the Old Covenant was better..no..Jesus blood was for once for all time! We don't need to add anything to it.
This is the gospel of grace and it is glorious and complete!
I do not confess to Him to get forgiven or use it as a bar of soap. He's already forgiven me. Our Lord's blood speaks of better things. If in the Old Covenant one day of bringing a lamb would covers year's worth of sins..the Old Covenant was better..no..Jesus blood was for once for all time! We don't need to add anything to it.
This is the gospel of grace and it is glorious and complete!
If I upset my parents I would have no rest or peace until I asked them to forgive me for what I had done wrong. I didn't ask them to forgive me because I was afraid they would cast me out if I didn't, it was because I loved them, knew I had upset them and i wanted my peace back.
That is how I view my relationship with God. If you think that means I do not understand the gospel of grace let us simply agree to disagree
That is how I view my relationship with God. If you think that means I do not understand the gospel of grace let us simply agree to disagree
I was not thinking of you at all James..like you I always feel much better ( in my feelings ) when I talk to my Father.. I just never use the term "please forgive me"
Don't be offended as I was not saying you did not understand the gospel... You have a great understanding in trusting in the finished work of Christ!...I believe you walk in great grace!..Be blessed! .. I like this verse for a lot of things.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
Don't be offended as I was not saying you did not understand the gospel... You have a great understanding in trusting in the finished work of Christ!...I believe you walk in great grace!..Be blessed! .. I like this verse for a lot of things.
Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
True my brother! There is such a thing as a "grace Pharisee"...if someone doesn't believe the way we believe..they are wrong!
People are free to believe what they want and they should be able to do so without being berated! ( not saying you did..just talking concepts here ).
The Lord is able to make us all stand! He is faithful to all of us.
People are free to believe what they want and they should be able to do so without being berated! ( not saying you did..just talking concepts here ).
The Lord is able to make us all stand! He is faithful to all of us.
L
I agree with you Grace777 and have always found 1 John 1:9 to be a verse that never went along with being forgiven as far as he east is from the west. It is a verse I memorized and said to myself and to God before Communion during church since before I can remember. It always confused me and was sort of one of those mystery verses that time and the HolySpirit would let me know about eventually. I was taught from the time of my salvation by a wonderful Pastor who witnessed the truth of salvation to me., that if we sin., He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So we can always ask forgiveness and God promises to forgive us.
Many times while in the church service while I was working through some issues of anger or confusion or having thought some wrong thought about someone or myself or God., or any number of issues I had not worked out in my mind to know if I was truly sorry for, I did not take communion for fear I'd be struck dead in the pew. I thought the verses about communion in 1 Cor.11:23-34 meant 'judgment' would come upon me if I came unworthily. taking judgment to myself.
But I thought we were already judged?? So it was confusing. If we were already forgiven why was I supposed to be afraid if I was not confessing all my sin in real sorrow before I took communion? And what if I didn't have all my issues resolved before communion and just verbally said I was sorry only to find later I was still very angry at someone or still had not had a working resolution to what I confessed I was sorry for before taking communion. (and that was exactly how it went for some years)
Later I've since found out that when we 'do' discern the Lord's body it means Jesus took our pains and our diseases and sins. We are celebrating that truth., not looking at our failures but looking at Jesus and how He paid for those very sins and we can rejoice and be thankful during communion., remembering Him proclaiming his death till He comes. He did it all for us. We are not judged again since all judgement was fully paid for when Jesus died and rose again.
This ties into 1John 1:9 and if it was meant for the Christian or for the gnostics who were in the gathering. We are already forgiven and made righteous so we do not go back and ask to be righteous again and again each time after we sin. We have already been saved so 1John 1:9 is not for those who already confessed they were sinners and agreed with what God (repented) but for those who do have not believed they sin. And if they don't believe they sin., they call God a liar and the truth is not in them.
We have Christ so the truth is in us. We already were made righteous In Christ. I love that this is not a question that only I wondered about. Frances Ridley Havergal the hymn writer in the 17 or 1800s whose songs are in our church hymnals also questioned her righteous standing before God IN Christ.
"Take My Life, and Let It Be" is one of her popular songs., and
"Like A River Glorious" Are the ones I know by heart. She knew the Latin and Greek and Hebrew. She was a child prodigy. So when I heard she wondered about this subject too and sought to learn about her standing before God in Christ., it was wonderful.
There is more to the Bible than we first heard. There is more truth to add to the truth we already were given. Our forgiveness is done. Jesus does not have to shed His blood again. He sits at the Fathers right hand making intercession for us by His very presence. He will bear the marks of what He did for us and He has a resurrected body ... He is the first fruits.
Where Adam caused all man kind to be guilty before God because sin was imputed to us., Jesus righteousness was imputed to us when He paid the price of what Adam did. Now Jesus is our Savior. Where Adam failed in sin., Jesus showed up and won the battle for our souls.
Dr. ladylynn. Lot's of truth in what you wrote!
It's hard for us that have been taught all our lives the things of the bible and then have things said that are contrary to what we have been told. Our minds just will not accept it. That 1John 1:9 thing really had my mind in a tizzy! I said that is heresy when I first heard it! But yet..in my heart it was saying..yes..look at it further. I even called Prince a heretic because I first heard it from him...lol
I loved the fact you brought out how can we lose our righteousness because it is Christ's righteousness. SO to go from unrighteous back to righteous again means that we get Christ's righteousness back again?..It's crazy talk.
New truths offend our religiously taught minds but if we seek God as you say about it..He will reveal it to us.
When we see the awesomeness of the work that our Lord did for us..it makes me kneel before the Father and Jesus and thank Him constantly!
The detractors of grace will say that we don't think we have to change and we can do whatever we want and live in sin constantly. This as we know is a bunch of baloney as no one says that. We say we get to transform through Him and Him alone.
As you have said in the past , it is so hard to let go and trust God for everything because the world teaches us "to do to get".
Thank you for your post. I learned a lot of it! Namely how great is the love of our Lord for us to provide everything for us with His great, wonderful salvation!
The self-performance-based gospel really is a horrible religion!
The gospel of grace as taught by Paul is freedom and life giving, peaceful
It's hard for us that have been taught all our lives the things of the bible and then have things said that are contrary to what we have been told. Our minds just will not accept it. That 1John 1:9 thing really had my mind in a tizzy! I said that is heresy when I first heard it! But yet..in my heart it was saying..yes..look at it further. I even called Prince a heretic because I first heard it from him...lol
I loved the fact you brought out how can we lose our righteousness because it is Christ's righteousness. SO to go from unrighteous back to righteous again means that we get Christ's righteousness back again?..It's crazy talk.
New truths offend our religiously taught minds but if we seek God as you say about it..He will reveal it to us.
When we see the awesomeness of the work that our Lord did for us..it makes me kneel before the Father and Jesus and thank Him constantly!
The detractors of grace will say that we don't think we have to change and we can do whatever we want and live in sin constantly. This as we know is a bunch of baloney as no one says that. We say we get to transform through Him and Him alone.
As you have said in the past , it is so hard to let go and trust God for everything because the world teaches us "to do to get".
Thank you for your post. I learned a lot of it! Namely how great is the love of our Lord for us to provide everything for us with His great, wonderful salvation!
The self-performance-based gospel really is a horrible religion!
The gospel of grace as taught by Paul is freedom and life giving, peaceful