Hyper grace
- Thread starter PeterJens
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L
Yes, I've been reading the different meanings of words and also am finding that in order to find the proper meaning is to actually learn words like "repentance" has different meanings at different times. It does not take away a meaning, it enhances an understanding. A change takes place when we find out a truth. Many times I will learn something and actually be able to say "I never knew that Lord., wow, I totally agree Father and am thankful You showed me this truth" So I'm not on the floor crying and sorrowing in 'repentance', I'm again thankful for grace and that He deals with us according to knowledge and trains us up as His sons and daughters. 
And also, verses pop into my mind like "there is no fear in love" The HolySpirit constantly brings verses to mind as we are learning and they apply to help rightly divide.
And also, verses pop into my mind like "there is no fear in love" The HolySpirit constantly brings verses to mind as we are learning and they apply to help rightly divide.
Last edited:
L
Yes, I've been reading the different meanings of words and also am finding that in order to find the proper meaning is to actually learn words like "repentance" has different meanings at different times. It does not take away a meaning, it enhances an understanding. A change takes place when we find out a truth. Many times I will learn something and actually be able to say "I never knew that Lord., wow, I totally agree Father and am thankful You showed me this truth" So I'm not on the floor crying and sorrowing in 'repentance', I'm again thankful for grace and that He deals with us according to knowledge and trains us up as His sons and daughters.
And also, verses pop into my mind like "there is no fear in love" The HolySpirit constantly brings verses to mind as we are learning and they apply to help rightly divide.
And also, verses pop into my mind like "there is no fear in love" The HolySpirit constantly brings verses to mind as we are learning and they apply to help rightly divide.
And not to be 'afraid' of a word that I thought meant only one thing., to find that it has another aspect to it that can change the meaning of one or two verses I always thought I had down pat in my understanding... We don't ever stop learning new things from God's Word and I for one am excited about how the HolySpirit teaches when we are willing to open ourselves up to Him and the Bible. Maybe that is why so many believers have different ideas and there are different kinds of denominations in the faith., everyone is learning. And that is a good thing.
L
No, you got it crooked But your in good company sister., that is why so many Christians are very quick to dismiss 'grace' in the life for today and have called it 'hyper grace'. Because it sounds like freedom in Christ means to sin all you want when INSTEAD it means we have every reason NOT to sin because the Bible tells us that 'grace teaches us HOW TO deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., HOW TO live soberly, righteously and godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.' We need grace IN THIS PRESENT WORLD., We need a revelation of His grace for our every day life. Not to run from it because some people have failed to apply it properly. We are to embrace grace and truth in Christ.
But your in good company sister., that is why so many Christians are very quick to dismiss 'grace' in the life for today and have called it 'hyper grace'. Because it sounds like freedom in Christ means to sin all you want when INSTEAD it means we have every reason NOT to sin because the Bible tells us that 'grace teaches us HOW TO deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., HOW TO live soberly, righteously and godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.' We need grace IN THIS PRESENT WORLD., We need a revelation of His grace for our every day life. Not to run from it because some people have failed to apply it properly. We are to embrace grace and truth in Christ.
Last edited:
L
Wow, got a lot of catching up to do with you all here on this thread. Grace777x70 I just love reading your posts., they are full of GRACE., your name is very appropriate to your message.
Yes, I agree with you here., if anyone goes to hell it will not be due to the sins of lying cheating murder etc... It will be because people have not received God's remedy for our sin., HIS Son Jesus Christ. He died for the whole world and the whole world has a chance to be saved no matter what sin they have committed. We are all on the same playing field sort of speak., God is not a respecter of persons in this regard. For God sooo loved the world., He GAVE His only begotten Son.
So wonderfully moral good people will be lost because they did not believe in Jesus and take that remedy for their sin. All of us need the righteousness of Christ that is free to all who want it. To be able to stand before God clothed in Jesus righteousness. That is why the Bible calls us the righteousness of God IN Christ.
L
Another reason why the HolySpirit expects us to study to show ourselves approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.....RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH... it's our responsibility to find out the meanings of different words and not be afraid to test and compare scripture with scripture. As you said Grace777 before, many sacred cows get demolished in this process.
And that is a good thing. And you shall know the truth and the TRUTH shall set you free. There is no fear in love., perfect love casts out fear. It's ok to study and learn and relearn. That is what we are called to do as believers. To mine out the gold nuggets in the Bible. There are truths inside truths.
This in its purest forms is a complete distortion of language and repentance.
John the Baptist preached repentance, turning from sin and being baptised as a sign of ones commitment.
This was not related to Jesus, it was an act of a contrite heart.
The theology being preached here is worship of Jesus as the gateway, but ignoring the issue of sin and repentance in it true form.
Another phrase used was we worship Jesus and not the Father. But we worship both. Jesus purchased us as friends to enter fellowship with the Father just as He has fellowship with the Father. To construct language that does not match Jesus's words is heresy.
This is all a bluring of simple moral and relationship boundaries to create an unusual theology.
John the Baptist preached repentance, turning from sin and being baptised as a sign of ones commitment.
This was not related to Jesus, it was an act of a contrite heart.
The theology being preached here is worship of Jesus as the gateway, but ignoring the issue of sin and repentance in it true form.
Another phrase used was we worship Jesus and not the Father. But we worship both. Jesus purchased us as friends to enter fellowship with the Father just as He has fellowship with the Father. To construct language that does not match Jesus's words is heresy.
This is all a bluring of simple moral and relationship boundaries to create an unusual theology.
L
I've often thought this over the years and it worried me so I just stayed in one place. The Bible says God has not given us the spirit of fear..but of POWER and LOVE and a sound mind. Since it is God who tells us to 'study to show yourselves approved unto God' Than He will see to it we will have a sensitivity to the truth. The HolySpirit will guide us into all truth. That is our promise and it is our loss or gain if we chose to not move forward in boldness and learn the many many truths through out the Bible that are meant for us. How can we stand when the rest of the world says something different than we have learned if we do not become thoroughly convinced in our own minds by the HolySpirit showing us the truth?
We become familiar with the Comforter and learn how to discern truth from error. The longer we spend time with Him the easier it becomes to discern what He says and what we think or what others say or write. But in order to do this we must again., look to Jesus not ourselves. It goes back to Jesus all the time. What times I am afraid I will trust in You...
Going to church once a week., blowing the dust off our Bible's every so often is not going to gain us a working knowledge and confidence in the scriptures OR our faith. We can't exist on occasional 'snacks' from the Bible. We need daily hearty MEALS. We cannot expect to be confident in our faith if we don't build upon it. There are many older Christians who do not go any further than what they learn on Sunday in church. Many are saved but remain babes only able to take milk. They usually are very angry and combative.,sensitive and easily insulted and resentful. Have a hard time forgiving and letting go.
I've seen too many of these kind of old Christians and now that I am older., I do not want to mirror that sort of faith. Perfect love casts out fear.
We become familiar with the Comforter and learn how to discern truth from error. The longer we spend time with Him the easier it becomes to discern what He says and what we think or what others say or write. But in order to do this we must again., look to Jesus not ourselves. It goes back to Jesus all the time. What times I am afraid I will trust in You...
Going to church once a week., blowing the dust off our Bible's every so often is not going to gain us a working knowledge and confidence in the scriptures OR our faith. We can't exist on occasional 'snacks' from the Bible. We need daily hearty MEALS. We cannot expect to be confident in our faith if we don't build upon it. There are many older Christians who do not go any further than what they learn on Sunday in church. Many are saved but remain babes only able to take milk. They usually are very angry and combative.,sensitive and easily insulted and resentful. Have a hard time forgiving and letting go.
I've seen too many of these kind of old Christians and now that I am older., I do not want to mirror that sort of faith. Perfect love casts out fear.
Listen to the bible
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8
Jesus is not some magic wand, or good luck charm, without which you are lost. Jesus is the source of healing and life but it actually has to take place in the believer or it has no value.
You could argue without gaining righteousness through the cross and into our lives all is lost.
The language here tends to emphasis the work of Jesus and not the action in the believers life, so ignoring the objective. The fear is legalism and self-justification.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8
Jesus is not some magic wand, or good luck charm, without which you are lost. Jesus is the source of healing and life but it actually has to take place in the believer or it has no value.
You could argue without gaining righteousness through the cross and into our lives all is lost.
The language here tends to emphasis the work of Jesus and not the action in the believers life, so ignoring the objective. The fear is legalism and self-justification.
L
Peter.,,this is not an opinion about the word - repentance, it is a fact of learning the meanings of a word and where it applies. Don't be so fast to use the word 'heresy' . I can assure you that the word "repentance" is not the only word that will be changed depending on the verse you are reading in the Bible. Having our minds changed is an on-going process as we "repent" daily.
L
Peter., you have had the habit of only posting part of my posts and then commenting on that part without the rest of my post for explanation. So here is my full post with interpretation as it stands and not how you have interpreted it. The meanings are very important. Jesus is not a magic 'wand' But Jesus IS the ONE who takes away all our sin as far as the east is from the west as if we never committed even one., because even ONE sin is breaking the whole law.
==================================================================================
Wow, got a lot of catching up to do with you all here on this thread. Grace777x70 I just love reading your posts., they are full of GRACE., your name is very appropriate to your message.
Yes, I agree with you here., if anyone goes to hell it will not be due to the sins of lying cheating murder etc... It will be because people have not received God's remedy for our sin., HIS Son Jesus Christ. He died for the whole world and the whole world has a chance to be saved no matter what sin they have committed. We are all on the same playing field sort of speak., God is not a respecter of persons in this regard. For God sooo loved the world., He GAVE His only begotten Son.
So wonderfully moral good people will be lost because they did not believe in Jesus and take that remedy for their sin. All of us need the righteousness of Christ that is free to all who want it. To be able to stand before God clothed in Jesus righteousness. That is why the Bible calls us the righteousness of God IN Christ.
Last edited:
Paul's core theology/ doctrine was a person knowing their rightstanding before God hinged solely on faith I Christ:
For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law rom 3:28.
Now this is the core crux of this, make no mistake, and i will repeat it.
A person has to know in their heart nothing but faith in Christ can make them acceptable to God. Paul believed in that knowledge was victory over sin.
Now suppose I join a church and the minister preached a sermon and told the congregation salvation was a free gift. All you have to do is repent and ask Christ into your life as lord and saviour and you are saved, at that point you are spotless before God.
What if the minister then stresses how you have to live the christian life according to the bible. What would I then think according to what I have thus far been taught?
Well I would come to the conclusion i was saved as a free gift, but my continued salvation hinges on my works/ obedience to Gods good and holy laws
You may say that is fine, but is it? What will I now stand on in my Christianity? Faith in Christ, or will I take the view that if I cannot obey the law/ do works I am in danger of forfeiting my Christianity. I am no longer living according to what Paul bieved gives victory over sin
What is my conclusion?
By all means preach righteous living, Paul did, so it would be completely false to say you cannot preach that. But MAKE SURE alongside that you keep stressing to the congregation they are not under a law of righteousness before God, faith in Christ is their only right standing before the father as long as they live( rom1:17)
Then you preach as Paul preached
And the minister needs to make sure he tells the congregation the licence to sin got cut out because the law God desires the christian to keep got transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts 2cor 3:3
For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law rom 3:28.
Now this is the core crux of this, make no mistake, and i will repeat it.
A person has to know in their heart nothing but faith in Christ can make them acceptable to God. Paul believed in that knowledge was victory over sin.
Now suppose I join a church and the minister preached a sermon and told the congregation salvation was a free gift. All you have to do is repent and ask Christ into your life as lord and saviour and you are saved, at that point you are spotless before God.
What if the minister then stresses how you have to live the christian life according to the bible. What would I then think according to what I have thus far been taught?
Well I would come to the conclusion i was saved as a free gift, but my continued salvation hinges on my works/ obedience to Gods good and holy laws
You may say that is fine, but is it? What will I now stand on in my Christianity? Faith in Christ, or will I take the view that if I cannot obey the law/ do works I am in danger of forfeiting my Christianity. I am no longer living according to what Paul bieved gives victory over sin
What is my conclusion?
By all means preach righteous living, Paul did, so it would be completely false to say you cannot preach that. But MAKE SURE alongside that you keep stressing to the congregation they are not under a law of righteousness before God, faith in Christ is their only right standing before the father as long as they live( rom1:17)
Then you preach as Paul preached
And the minister needs to make sure he tells the congregation the licence to sin got cut out because the law God desires the christian to keep got transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts 2cor 3:3
Peter..no one is saying that it's ok to just sin all you want....we are very simply giving the meaning of the word of repentance used in the greek language...which simply means "change your mind". I realize that we have been taught that it means to "turn from your sins" from our religious upbringing. I know that it is hard for me to accept some things because of my religious teachings. It offended my mind!
Repent (change your mind ) and turn to God!
John the Baptist came "preparing the way to Jesus..make His paths straight."
Mark 1:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Change your mind... your way of thinking... and believe on the Messiah who is coming. Believe in Him and you will receive forgiveness of sins. The people then came to be baptized by John and they were confessing that they had sins.
The context of John saying to show "fruit" of the Pharisee repentance is in reference that they did not believe in what john was saying. Their "fruit of repentance" would be coming to be baptized to say they had sins. We know that they had their own self-righteousness because they had "turned from sin"....they were not like those sinners....We all need to know that we are in need of a Savior. In order to know that..we need to acknowledge we have sin ( Like in 1 John 1:8 )
God Himself repented. Put the definition of "repented" in with God repenting. God "repented" ...did He turn from His sin? I could show you the scriptures in both the Old and New Testament concerning this if you desire..
I repent every day! I used to believe that sunday was the Sabbath but I "repented" and now know that Jesus is our Sabbath! I changed my thinking on the subject. I submitted myself to the revelation of Jesus! ( a fruit of my repentance )
We all agree that us Christians through the life of Christ in us will stop doing behavior ( sin ) that is destructive to us.. This would be the "fruit" of us changing our mind and depending on Christ.
Stopping sinning does not make us righteous. Faith in Christ does! This faith will manifest eventually in our outward behavior.
We are not saying it's ok to just go out and sin all you want!
I have no idea what you are talking about worship Jesus only and not the Father as you say here....never saw that anywhere...but you are right...that would not be correct!
I know that when we hear things that are contrary to what we were taught brings all kinds of disturbing thoughts. We believe that the life of Christ in us will produce good fruit...His fruit!
It is Himself thru Jesus Christ....that becomes our revelation. The more we see Him, understand Him, the revelation switch is given us, thru the Holy Spirit.... Our obedience immediately follows from the inertia of His grace and He immediately empowers us beyond ourselves, gathering us to Himself.. And turning who we were into who He has already made us to be because we are in Him,
Repent (change your mind ) and turn to God!
John the Baptist came "preparing the way to Jesus..make His paths straight."
Mark 1:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Change your mind... your way of thinking... and believe on the Messiah who is coming. Believe in Him and you will receive forgiveness of sins. The people then came to be baptized by John and they were confessing that they had sins.
The context of John saying to show "fruit" of the Pharisee repentance is in reference that they did not believe in what john was saying. Their "fruit of repentance" would be coming to be baptized to say they had sins. We know that they had their own self-righteousness because they had "turned from sin"....they were not like those sinners....We all need to know that we are in need of a Savior. In order to know that..we need to acknowledge we have sin ( Like in 1 John 1:8 )
God Himself repented. Put the definition of "repented" in with God repenting. God "repented" ...did He turn from His sin? I could show you the scriptures in both the Old and New Testament concerning this if you desire..
I repent every day! I used to believe that sunday was the Sabbath but I "repented" and now know that Jesus is our Sabbath! I changed my thinking on the subject. I submitted myself to the revelation of Jesus! ( a fruit of my repentance )
We all agree that us Christians through the life of Christ in us will stop doing behavior ( sin ) that is destructive to us.. This would be the "fruit" of us changing our mind and depending on Christ.
Stopping sinning does not make us righteous. Faith in Christ does! This faith will manifest eventually in our outward behavior.
We are not saying it's ok to just go out and sin all you want!
I have no idea what you are talking about worship Jesus only and not the Father as you say here....never saw that anywhere...but you are right...that would not be correct!
I know that when we hear things that are contrary to what we were taught brings all kinds of disturbing thoughts. We believe that the life of Christ in us will produce good fruit...His fruit!
It is Himself thru Jesus Christ....that becomes our revelation. The more we see Him, understand Him, the revelation switch is given us, thru the Holy Spirit.... Our obedience immediately follows from the inertia of His grace and He immediately empowers us beyond ourselves, gathering us to Himself.. And turning who we were into who He has already made us to be because we are in Him,
If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
Ezekiel 33:12
After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.
Jere 31:19
Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.
2 Tim 2:19
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness
Matt 21:32
For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matt 11:21
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8:22
Repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’
1 Kings 8:47
To repent is simple.
1. Admit the acts are evil, sin
2. Feel sorry about doing such acts
3. Commit yourself to not commit these acts again
Repentance comes with acts of penance, wearing sackcloth and ashes, as a sign of a change of heart, a humbling.
This is repentance.
Ezekiel 33:12
After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.
Jere 31:19
Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.
2 Tim 2:19
For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness
Matt 21:32
For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matt 11:21
Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8:22
Repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’
1 Kings 8:47
To repent is simple.
1. Admit the acts are evil, sin
2. Feel sorry about doing such acts
3. Commit yourself to not commit these acts again
Repentance comes with acts of penance, wearing sackcloth and ashes, as a sign of a change of heart, a humbling.
This is repentance.
I am quoting John is revelations. I think John is talking about those who compromise over sin, blasphemy, idolatry because of cowardice. I like you do not understand why cowardice is put in this list, but Jesus said this
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:33
Peter denied Jesus when he was arrested, and this was considered sin, a breaking of fellowship with the Lord.
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32
So this is probably what John has in mind. If you are put to the test, where would you stand?
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:33
Peter denied Jesus when he was arrested, and this was considered sin, a breaking of fellowship with the Lord.
Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32
So this is probably what John has in mind. If you are put to the test, where would you stand?
The Christian life is not about US living for Jesus but Jesus living through US. Failure to understand this simple truth is at the root of all legalism and the performance mentality.
The law focus on the "outer man" ( external behavior ) and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the "inner man" and tells it what is already done through Christ.
Right believing produces right living which will reflect the life of Christ in the believer's life.
The law focus on the "outer man" ( external behavior ) and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the "inner man" and tells it what is already done through Christ.
Right believing produces right living which will reflect the life of Christ in the believer's life.