Hyper grace

[james57]

If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
Ezekiel 33:12

After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.
Jere 31:19

Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.
2 Tim 2:19

For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness
Matt 21:32

For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matt 11:21

Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8:22

Repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’
1 Kings 8:47

To repent is simple.
1. Admit the acts are evil, sin
2. Feel sorry about doing such acts
3. Commit yourself to not commit these acts again

Repentance comes with acts of penance, wearing sackcloth and ashes, as a sign of a change of heart, a humbling.
This is repentance.

The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live could be written as

The righteous person who fails to observe the law( sins) will lose their righteousness

The quote was taken from Ezekiel when the old covenant was in operation

So peter, in reality you believe the christian has right standing before God of observing the law/ works of the law. Paul didn't think so

 

[Grace777x70]

There seems to be a lot more to this great salvation in Christ then what we thought....obviously there is a difference between being righteous in Christ and not being in Christ.

If I was cowardly when just before I died..I would not go to heaven....no..Jesus's blood speaks of far greater things..

There is much for us to learn about Christ IN us!..it's all about Him..

2 Timothy 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I am quoting John is revelations. I think John is talking about those who compromise over sin, blasphemy, idolatry because of cowardice. I like you do not understand why cowardice is put in this list, but Jesus said this

But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:33

Peter denied Jesus when he was arrested, and this was considered sin, a breaking of fellowship with the Lord.

Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.
Luke 22:31-32

So this is probably what John has in mind. If you are put to the test, where would you stand?

 

[james57]

It is a strange thing, but someone once told me the two denominations that find it hardest to accept the grace of the bible are pentecostals and Catholics. Strange because doctrinally they are the two denominations furthest apart in mainstream christianity

 

[PeterJens]

Mixing of the covenants here!
Old Covenant = you do or else
New Covenant = Christ did it all....believe and participate in His life
I tell you I'm glad I don't have the righteousness that Ezekiel was talking about....Jesus us is righteousness!
Don't take someone else's medicine!

Your gospel is not the gospel of Jesus. You have abandoned morality for the good luck charm Jesus.
The model you are pushing is the flesh stays forever evil, but the spirit is forever pure, so repentance has no role.

The gospel I follow is Jesus agrees with my heart, I am a sinner, born a slave to sin out of ignorance and loneliness, torn by the whims of emotional desire. Nothing makes sense but that which is before me.

But Jesus brings the context, the answer to why sin destroys and why it rules in my life. The key is bitterness, hatred, lostness, driven from one disaster to another and finally death. But the answer is realising I hold the blame for this mess, and asking for help from the King is the beginning of the walk. I believe that He is the answer, that His ways work to bring me life, if I put them into action. These are works of righteousness which I am called to do, which this very sharing is part of. These works do not justify me, they are the gift of God to my life, but in obedience I must obey.

Somehow along the line, you have turned righteousness and obedience into sin. It is plain the simple language of the bible you dismiss as not applicable to you as old covenant. So truly you have a different faith than mine and 99% of the christian church.

 

[james57]

If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
Ezekiel 33:12

After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.
Jere 31:19

Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.
2 Tim 2:19

For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness
Matt 21:32

For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matt 11:21

Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.
Acts 8:22

Repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’
1 Kings 8:47

To repent is simple.
1. Admit the acts are evil, sin
2. Feel sorry about doing such acts
3. Commit yourself to not commit these acts again

Repentance comes with acts of penance, wearing sackcloth and ashes, as a sign of a change of heart, a humbling.
This is repentance.

Peter
As you have written about penance needing to be done to accompany repentance, am I right in assuming you are an evangelical catholic?

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter..we do not mean to "gang" up on you.

All of us agree what the Christian's life in Christ should look like.

I think Ephesians shows the perfect christian life.

1st part of Ephesians is us sitting with Christ...middle is how we walk..the last part of Ephesians shows us how we stand.

You start out complete in Christ and walk that out.

How well you walk in this earth below worthy of our high calling in Christ is determined how well you sit in the finished work of Christ. You have to know how complete you are in Christ, that you are blessed with every blessing, that your sins are forgiven in Christ according to the riches of His grace.

Then you walk out of who you are. We are not working "to become". We have "become". We are walking out of our identity!

It's glorious! The gospel of the grace of our Lord Jesus!

 

[PeterJens]

The core failure of Joseph Prince is to deny repentance. Everything else springs from this failure.

The language appears the same, the references, the interpretation, but it is not the gospel. If we are not sinners lost in sin, who need to turn from this sin, then there is no morality or definitions only a quasi set of concepts which float around but without proper definition.

The core test is would you understand Moses, Elijah, Eziekel, Isaiah as your fellow brothers or strangers preaching another faith? The reason they appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration is because we are the same, but we see clearly, they only the shadow.

Now I know from this interaction you will never agree with me, but I am seeking definition of your position, so I can put it into context in my own mind and confirm why I cannot share fellowship with this theology.

I would put it like this, I came to Jesus because I loved Him from the beginning without legalism or a church context. I have never thought my actions worthy or I was working for my salvation, so none of these ideas echo with me. I do though react badly to simple contradiction of the Lords word and message, which is so obvious.

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace-based believers do not think it is right to go and do what you want and sin all you want. No body says that. We are against sin!..Sin will kill you, destroy your, your family, your very life here on this earth!

Sinning is basically a failure to depend on the life of Christ inside of us once we become believers. Sinning is a failure to depend on the completed works of Christ for one's life!

 

[KennethC]

Grace-based believers do not think it is right to go and do what you want and sin all you want. No body says that. We are against sin!..Sin will kill you, destroy your, your family, your very life here on this earth!

Sinning is basically a failure to depend on the life of Christ inside of us once we become believers. Sinning is a failure to depend on the completed works of Christ for one's life!

That disobedience of continuing to live deliberate sinful lifestyles has eternal consequences to.

Again Matthew 25, Luke 12, Hebrews 2-3,10 are clear passages about the eternal consequences of continued disobedience.

 

[PeterJens]

Declares the Lord.
“These are the ones I look on with favor:

those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."....

Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at his word:
“Your own people who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said,

‘Let the Lord be glorified, that we may see your joy!’

Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city,hear that noise from the temple!

It is the sound of the Lord repaying his enemies all they deserve."

Isaiah 66:2 - 6

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter my precious brother...I can tell that you have never listened to Joseph Prince preach on repentance...he talks about repentance all the time..

Here..watch this..and tell me what he is saying there is no repentance..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVIE1ccoxJE


QUOTE=PeterJens;2394906]The core failure of Joseph Prince is to deny repentance. Everything else springs from this failure.

The language appears the same, the references, the interpretation, but it is not the gospel. If we are not sinners lost in sin, who need to turn from this sin, then there is no morality or definitions only a quasi set of concepts which float around but without proper definition.

The core test is would you understand Moses, Elijah, Eziekel, Isaiah as your fellow brothers or strangers preaching another faith? The reason they appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration is because we are the same, but we see clearly, they only the shadow.

Now I know from this interaction you will never agree with me, but I am seeking definition of your position, so I can put it into context in my own mind and confirm why I cannot share fellowship with this theology.

I would put it like this, I came to Jesus because I loved Him from the beginning without legalism or a church context. I have never thought my actions worthy or I was working for my salvation, so none of these ideas echo with me. I do though react badly to simple contradiction of the Lords word and message, which is so obvious.[/QUOTE]

 

[ladylynn]

Very much enjoyed that message. "Christ redeemeth sinful men" Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Peter my precious brother...I can tell that you have never listened to Joseph Prince preach on repentance...

I have to go, PARDON. I cannot hear you. Did you say I have got repentance wrong, or you agree a christian has to repent of their sins, ask God to forgive them and walk in obedience?

I think your answer is yes, but you are using Prince to construct the idea is some long winded set of ideas.

God is plain. Man is guilty of sin. The punishment for sin is Hell. We have to be righteous to avoid Hell, which is only achieved through Jesus by repenting and believing. If you cannot do this you are not a christian.

Now you can change Jesus into a good luck charm, that avoids repentance, but it is not the gospel. This is basic christianity, milk as one would say. It is why Jesus went to sinners. The difference between a sinner and the righteous is life style. But true righteousness is driven by love which is demonstrated by Jesus on the cross. It is that love I fell in love with, which won my heart into eternity, which caused me to abandon any hope in this world and put my all in His.

But funnily these words do not bring rejoicing to your heart, which shows the divide as wide as eternity.

Jesus said this,

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me"
John 10:14

 

[Grace777x70]

Matthew 3:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Ephesians 1:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

If any man be IN Christ ( the Beloved )..he is a new creation!...old things have passed away..all things have become new. AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE OF GOD.

Peter, KennethC..all believers we are in the Beloved! We have a great salvation in the beauty and love of our Lord Jesus!

Declares the Lord.
“These are the ones I look on with favor:

those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."....

Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at his word:
“Your own people who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said,

‘Let the Lord be glorified, that we may see your joy!’

Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city,hear that noise from the temple!

It is the sound of the Lord repaying his enemies all they deserve."

Isaiah 66:2 - 6

 

[KennethC]

Matthew 3:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Ephesians 1:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

If any man be IN Christ ( the Beloved )..he is a new creation!...old things have passed away..all things have become new. AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE OF GOD.

Peter, KennethC..all believers we are in the Beloved! We have a great salvation in the beauty and love of our Lord Jesus!

We are not denying those scriptures you gave, those scriptures also do not override or do away with the rest of God's word. It all works together.

Actions of a person are proof that they are born again, and Jesus even stated more than once that those who believe in Him are those who do what He said.

Those who hear and don't do He says will fall, James says deceived.

Again read Matthew 25, Luke 12, and Hebrews 2-3,10 about disobedience and ways of denying.

 

[Grace777x70]

It's obvious that you have not "heard" what I said about sinning and repentance....and about the richness of the grace that is in Christ.


Here is a wonderful truth that we can all agree to live by in situations like this my beloved brothers..I bless you!

We have a good, good Father!

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[KennethC]

I watched the Joseph Prince video about repentance, and he is clearly off I a couple points.

For one Jesus did not give an example of a one time repentance. Nor does the bible say anywhere repenting of future sins dishonorable Jesus as Prince said.

The bible does however say continuing to be deliberately sinful does dishonor Him, because it days such people are trampling Him underfoot.

Also Jesus gave example of a person who sinned and each time came and repented, they are to be forgiven. No one time repentance mentioned in that passage.

Also Prince brought up 1 John 2 of Jesus being our advocate when we sin, but clearly left off the fact of the confession for the sins mentioned prior to that verse.

Confessing ones sins is a part of repentance, it is not just the watered down change of mind only version.

Jesus showed in Matthew 3:8 that a true repentance will show in our actions.

In other words if you repent but still continue to keep willing committing those sins it was not a true repentance.

 

[ladylynn]

Declares the Lord.
“These are the ones I look on with favor:

those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word."....

Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at his word:
“Your own people who hate you, and exclude you because of my name, have said,

‘Let the Lord be glorified, that we may see your joy!’

Yet they will be put to shame. Hear that uproar from the city,hear that noise from the temple!

It is the sound of the Lord repaying his enemies all they deserve."

Isaiah 66:2 - 6

The Old Testament way of relating to God is not the same as the New Testament way of having a relationship with God. The Old Testament was legalistic and based on your performance. The New Testament, on the other hand, is a covenant of grace based on acceptance of what Jesus did. Because of that, there is a huge difference between the way people approached God under the Old and the way they should now approach Him under the New.The book of Hebrews was written specifically to contrast this and to show us how to approach God through a new and living way. I
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


While I don't agree with all of what A.Wommack believes, I totally agree with this and other things he shared about Hebrews. We are under a new covenant and must live accordingly. Not to be new covenant saints living under the old covenant of law. And that means finding out what is written under the old covenant for those saints and what is for us under the new covenant. If that is not clear you will be mixed up on any Bible interpretation.

 

[KennethC]

It's obvious that you have not "heard" what I said about sinning and repentance....and about the richness of the grace that is in Christ.


Here is a wonderful truth that we can all agree to live by in situations like this my beloved brothers..I bless you!

We have a good, good Father!

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

What Paul is saying there in Romans 14:22 is the same as he said in other places on being careful what we speak and teach.

For if we teach falsely we will bring condemnation on ourselves, but if we preach His truth we will save ourselves and those who are listening.
(1 Timothy 4:16)

God's grace is wonderful because it not only teaches us but also helps us by the Holy Spirit to walk according to the faith in Christ.

There are many examples in the NT the lifestyle standard born again believers will uphold, and warnings to disobedience if not !!!

God's grace does not allow lewdness !!!

 

[KennethC]

The Old Testament way of relating to God is not the same as the New Testament way of having a relationship with God. The Old Testament was legalistic and based on your performance. The New Testament, on the other hand, is a covenant of grace based on acceptance of what Jesus did. Because of that, there is a huge difference between the way people approached God under the Old and the way they should now approach Him under the New.The book of Hebrews was written specifically to contrast this and to show us how to approach God through a new and living way. I
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


While I don't agree with all of what A.Wommack believes, I totally agree with this and other things he shared about Hebrews. We are under a new covenant and must live accordingly. Not to be new covenant saints living under the old covenant of law. And that means finding out what is written under the old covenant for those saints and what is for us under the new covenant. If that is not clear you will be mixed up on any Bible interpretation.

The only difference from the Old to the New is this:

1) The written ordinances does not apply, the Moral does.

2) Jesus taught instead of focusing on all those written ordinances, all we are to focus on in Him is to walk in LOVE.

Love fulfills all because it does no harm to others, and Paul even said LOVE is greater than FAITH.

This is because as John put it those who do not love do not know God.

There is still a moral standard believers are to uphold.