The Immaculate Conception Error

[Roberth]

That does not prove The Blessed Virgin Mary was a sinner. It proves that all people without salvation are unrighteous, that is, not even one is righteous.

Oh, this is good. So, you think you are righteous as a believer?

Then you quoted this:

"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.(Mat 9:13)"

Yes, go learn what that means. I'll help you: Jesus didn't come to call those who think that they are righteous (like yourself), but sinners.

There are two types of sinners:

1] The self-righteous...like your Pope

2] Those who know they are sinners and need Christ's righteousness.

What Jesus is saying is He didn't come to save the self-righteous because it is very hard to convince a holy Joe that he is a sinner.

Try again,

RobertH.

 

[Roberth]

Examples of righteousness in scripture:

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Mat 5:45)​

Are you,

a] righteous in and of yourself as a believer

or

b] are you righteous by faith "in Christ Jesus"?

What does Paul say? "There is none righteous". He doesn't differentiate between the unbeliever and believer. That is your addition.

The correct answer is therefore "b" - we are righteous "in Christ" by faith alone.

That righteousness is "in Christ" and He is in heaven. You have no righteousness. You are void of the ingredient by which the law could declare you righteous and that ingredient is agape. You are a sinner falling short of God's agape. If you doubt me I'll prove it. Try me.....

 

[Roberth]

You are a sinner falling short of God's agape. If you doubt me I'll prove it. Try me.....

Paul states, "the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'" Gal 5:13

Now, do you love your neighbor as you love yourself? That's the question. If you do, then you are righteous, but if you don't you are falling short and that means you are a sinner.

You tell me!

Keep in mind the spirit of God's law has only one command, not two.

The spirit of God's law doesn't say,

1] love your neighbor

and

2] love yourself.

 

[epostle]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

 

[Magenta]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

No doubt a Roman Catholic said that out of their hatred for non RCC, and you now parrot it.

 

[Roberth]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

Self-hatred, huh?

And you think that self-hatred is the opposite of self-love?

In God's kingdom the opposite of self-love is agape, a love that is not self-seeking.

If you really agape your neighbor as you love yourself, then why not give all your wealth to you neighbor? That's loving your neighbor as you naturally, selfishly, love self.

1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

 

[Roberth]

In God's kingdom the opposite of self-love is agape, a love that is not self-seeking.

"Love (agape)...does not seek its own." (1 Cor 13:4,5) NKJV

"Love...is not self-seeking" (NIV).

Self-love, on the other hand, is based on self-seeking and self-interest. Self-love is based in iniquity. It is based on glorying in one's self. It is the essence of pride and moving up.

Lucifer is a perfect example:

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ (Is 14:12-14)

 

[Roberth]

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

 

[Roberth]

My point? We are a bunch of sinners failing to live up to the spirit of God's own law. We are righteous in Christ alone. We need no mediator other than Christ. God is our Father, not "the Holy Father" in Roman.

 

[Roberth]

If you really agape your neighbor as you love yourself, then why not give all your wealth to you neighbor? That's loving your neighbor as you naturally, selfishly, love self.

Matt 19:17 "if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

This was Christ's answer to the man that asked "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

Notice, he was seeking eternal life in return for doing good. That's salvation by works. Now, let's read on:

18 He said to (Jesus), “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

Notice this man's arrogance! He is self-righteous. I've been keeping all these rules since Sunday School. Where am I lacking? I am a righteous man!

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

You see this man loved himself. If he had agape love he would have sold all his goods and gave the money to the poor and followed Christ in his self-denial.

So he wasn't a law-keeper after all. He was a sinner and "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight".

 

[willfollowsGod]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

I do not hate you so I am not anti-Catholic. I am concerned. I disagree with the Catholic doctrine and the more I read the Bible I don't see a lot of orthodox Christianity in Catholicism. There is stuff you get right doctrinally and then stuff that cannot be substantiated by the Bible. We do not need a Pope. God is our Holy Father and not the Pope as said in the Old Testament. God is Our Holiness not the Pope. Jesus is our mediator not Mary as said in Hebrews if I remember correctly. We do not need a place called Vatican City, that should be given back to Italy. Jesus should be our great leader. Jesus is God's representative for us and not the Pope. I love you as a brother in Christ I just don't think Catholicism is consistent with Scripture and that it should only be Sola Scriptura and not the other. I want a reformation of Catholicism, to be more in line with the Bible and less with the traditions of man. Also, another thing that distresses me is that even though officially the practice of indulgences has ended, if you go to a place called the Vatican Stairs or whatever it is called, you still see people giving indulgences even though that practice should be outlawed since it is not biblical. R. C. Sproul saw this and was distressed by it. God bless.

 

[Euphemia]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

I think only a Catholic would say that. It isn't the truth, however.

There is oodles of error being adhered to by the RCC and purveyed to the world of people who have no compunction to actually test the doctrines out and measure them against scripture. If Catholic people would do that, the RCC would die a very quick death indeed, and the Church of Jesus Christ would swell in numbers throughout the globe.

What you think is bigotry is actually a very astute comprehension of the truth about the RCC.


.

 

[valiant]

It is said that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry. Some posts in this forum are quite revealing.

yes Satan said it loud and clear

 

[valiant]

View attachment 141022​

then you can forget Scripture and believe what the Pope tells you.

 

[valiant]

The doctrine hinges on the meaning of "Full of Grace", which I have repeatedly posted from various Protestant Greek scholars on this thread, and on the typology of the Ark of the Covenant revealed in the Ark of the New Covenant, with copious amounts of scripture. You just ignore them.

If the doctrine of Mary's sinlessness rests on the use of Charito-o then your case is lost. Ephesians 1.6 shows that we are all 'Charito-o' in the Beloved. Thus Mary was a 'having been favoured one' in the same way as all other Christians. In her case it was by being mother of the Messiah, which was something all Jewish women hoped for. In our case it is by being blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places. No doubt Mary enjoyed that as well. So she was kecharitomene (perfect participle of Charito-o) one who is highly favoured like all Christians are.

Jesus is without sin, that's what full of grace implies.

you do talk such utter nonsense. Grace is God's UNMERITED favour shown. So 'full of grace , highly favoured' means much of God's unmerited favour is shown. Mary needed grace because she was a sinner. Your meaning of 'grace' is wholly unscriptural.

If you are without sin you do not need grace.

There is only one other place in scripture where this word, full of grace, kecharitomene in Greek, is found. It is a title/description for the BVM in Luke 1:28.

yes and its other use is in Ephesians 1.6 of all Christians

It doesn't use the word kecharitomene, which is related, but not grace in the fullest sense.

Charitoo means grace (God's favour shown) in the fullest sense. kecharitomene is its perfect participle meaning 'one who has been highly favoured'. echaritosen is the aorist indicative, indicating having been highly favoured. You should learn Greek before you jabber on about things you know nothing about..

That's your conclusion, I don't bend scripture to fit a man made system.

LOL you don't bend it, you twist it and tie it in knots to fit just such a man made system.

John 1:16 does not use kecharitomene because you want it to.

But Ephesians 1.6 DOES use the same verb of all Christians.

 

[KenAllan]

Epostle you must realize you are not fighting against us, you are fighting against God Himself. By teaching Mary was without sin you are calling God a liar because God has said ALL have sinned.

What you have done epostle is elevate the teachings of the Catholic Church above the Truth from God the Holy Spirit. The only person you are hurting is yourself. Not me and not anyone else but you only.

Until you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will continue to walk in darkness and you will continue doing the will of Satan. Its Satan who you are serving by claiming Mary was without sin. Its Satan who you are serving when you attack God's Children.

One day you will see the Truth but then it will be too late and your destiny will be the Lake of Fire with Satan.

 

[MikeHenderson]

How can anyone expect epostle to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior when he posts a picture of Mary at the bottom of his posts?

Look at the bottom of his posts and you will see a picture of his god.

Why epostle are you posting a picture of Mary? You do know this does prove you do worship statues as your god?

We are told NOT to make images of anything epostle. But i guess you feel your above God and can do anything you want.

Exodus 20:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP] " You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

The picture is your Idol epostle which does prove you have never accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

 

[epostle]

I said, "It is said" that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry... I never said it was a fact, and it does't mean all anti-Catholics are bigots. Just ill-informed. I don't count sheer ignorance as sadistic, but it is the chronic resistance to information that should normally counter ignorance, but it doesn't. That's where blind prejudice comes in.

Based on my analysis and knowledge of psychology, many anti-Catholics in this forum suffer from a type of religious sadism. It is a senseless attack with the sole purpose of offending Catholics and the illusive pleasure derived from it.

Sadism is a sexual perversion where a person derives pleasure from inflicting harm on people or animals. Translated into forum discussion, it's done with words instead of whips. A forum sadist is a very sick person. They hate themselves.

Masochism is a sexual perversion where a person derives pleasure from being inflicted. In forum language, it happens when a person jumps from one topic, after being totally refuted, to another topic, with the purpose of being refuted again and again. They thrive on being corrected because to them it is a form of punishment, deriving illusive pleasure. So there is more going on than just jumping from one topic to another, which is easy to do. When an argument is totally demolished, they just go find some anti-Catholic web site for the next topic on the list. The forum masochist is a sick person. They hate themselves.

The sadomasochist is a combination of the above, and I cannot waste my time with the Christian Taliban who are in desperate need of psychotherapy and are incapable of discussion. That's why I have so many on my ignore list.

 

[onlinebuddy]

There is the distinction between original sin and actual sin. You are confusing the two. The former is much more in a corporate sense, whereas the latter is an individualistic thing. We are fallen creatures – even a baby (because it is human; therefore fallen) – , with original sin.

Hey Epostle,
Original sin is nothing but the sin of Adam. Period.
Original sin was Adam's individualistic sin, nothing more, nothing less; and without any implications to any other creature on earth.
Every human being after Adam has individualistically sinned, and will be held accountable for that individual sin. The bible does not say that we are accountable for or tainted by the sin of Adam or anyone else.
Adam may have been the "federal head," but does not mean that his sin or guilt was transferred to anyone else. No one else is will be held accountable for Adam's sin, although mankind may suffer the consequence of Adam's sin. His sin is his individual sin, and there is no corporate sense attached to it.
And we are not fallen creatures. We are made upright and beautifully and wonderfully by God. We fell when we sinned and not when Adam sinned. Our natures and hearts get corrupted because of our own constant sins.
Rom 5:12 and 1Cor 15 have been highly misinterpreted in an attempt to prove something that these verses are not intending to address at all.

 

[valiant]

I said, "It is said" that self hatred is the root of anti-Catholic bigotry... I never said it was a fact, and it does't mean all anti-Catholics are bigots. Just ill-informed. I don't count sheer ignorance as sadistic, but it is the chronic resistance to information that should normally counter ignorance, but it doesn't. That's where blind prejudice comes in.

Based on my analysis and knowledge of psychology, many anti-Catholics in this forum suffer from a type of religious sadism. It is a senseless attack with the sole purpose of offending Catholics and the illusive pleasure derived from it.

Sadism is a sexual perversion where a person derives pleasure from inflicting harm on people or animals. Translated into forum discussion, it's done with words instead of whips. A forum sadist is a very sick person. They hate themselves.

Masochism is a sexual perversion where a person derives pleasure from being inflicted. In forum language, it happens when a person jumps from one topic, after being totally refuted, to another topic, with the purpose of being refuted again and again. They thrive on being corrected because to them it is a form of punishment, deriving illusive pleasure. So there is more going on than just jumping from one topic to another, which is easy to do. When an argument is totally demolished, they just go find some anti-Catholic web site for the next topic on the list. The forum masochist is a sick person. They hate themselves.

The sadomasochist is a combination of the above, and I cannot waste my time with the Christian Taliban who are in desperate need of psychotherapy and are incapable of discussion. That's why I have so many on my ignore list.

Don't you think a Roman Catholic is evil if he comes on a non-Catholic site and flaunts a picture of Mary on every post? Now he really is a masochist and deserves all he gets!!!