Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

The flesh is "hostile" to God and "hates" that it can't do what it wants!.....it is fighting against the purposes of God..that's why we walk according to the flesh!

again..sin is bad and destructive!

We believe that it's faith in Christ alone that saves u...not in our works...in saying that..one who knows who they are in Christ will produce fruit..His fruit!

There are thousands of Christians that have left the "traditional church" because they couldn't measure up to what they were told they had to "do".....desperately trying to "live the Christian life" ( no one can live the true Christian life..only Jesus in us can )...these people left the church....not Jesus in their heart.... because of this mixed gospel that is being preached.

They felt like hypocrites and out of frustration just gave up.. BUT God is bringing them back to Him..bringing the gospel of the grace of Christ to them and setting them free!!!!

It is the gospel of the grace of Christ that has the power to change...
Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Enmity does not mean not reconciled..This is a classic example of taking "words' or parts of scripture and then telling them what they mean according to what we think which is based on our religious beliefs ( which could be not not be biblical in truth )
[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]ἔχθρα[/FONT].

"Hatred," "hostility," as an inner disposition, as objective opposition and as actual conflict between nations, groups and individuals.
​

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament – Volume II.

So, you made up a doctrine saying "enmity means not reconciled and in order to receive eternal life we have to be reconciled to God. ".....your premise was wrong with the understanding of the word enmity to begin with....then of course with that..it completely leads to an unbiblical conclusion of that scripture.

It's the nature of the beast..just sayin'

 

[KennethC]

That is where you misunderstand.

Enmity does refer to not reconciled. Look at your own definition as it clearly states in opposition, which means to be against.

You can not be in Christ and against Christ both.

Please stop playing with God's word to make a faulty doctrine fit.

If a person is in (enmity) opposition to God, that means they are separated from Him.

Scripture clearly says sin separates us from God, and through Christ we have to be reconciled to Him.

There is another term in the bible for those in opposition- antichrist

 

[Grace777x70]

It means the flesh is hostile ..in opposition to God....so it means my flesh is separated from God?.. ( actually that is true..)....not that they are going to hell....again..how much sin is too much to have God lie to us when He said He would never leave us or forsake us?..in some cases..it's the length of your hair..or it's if you drink wine..or go to movies... ( hardly ever gluttony though as we love doing that..shhhh..don't tell God that.)

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

In Christ the enmity is not the issue...the issue is the flesh ..unless we understand the new creation in Christ..what happened to us in our inner man...what it means to be circumcised by Christ in our heart and flesh...we will continue to mix the Covenants up and try to marry the old wine with the new..thus ruining both as Jesus talked about.

That is where you misunderstand.

Enmity does refer to not reconciled. Look at your own definition as it clearly states in opposition, which means to be against.

You can not be in Christ and against Christ both.

Please stop playing with God's word to make a faulty doctrine fit.

If a person is in (enmity) opposition to God, that means they are separated from Him.

Scripture clearly says sin separates us from God, and through Christ we have to be reconciled to Him.

There is another term in the bible for those in opposition- antichrist

 

[james57]

I'm sorry James57, you misunderstand my posts., I do not believe Paul's Christian life was one of being 'sold as a slave to sin' ???? not sure how you interpreted this from any of my posts. Paul ran the race he finished the course. He let Christ live through him., and the life Paul lived - Paul lived by the faith of the Son of God who loved Paul - and gave His life for Paul. Paul 'got it' Paul lived his life as one who was totally sold out to Christ. Unlike the men you mentioned in your posts who could not control the flesh and kept drinking alcohol or the man who committed adultery. Paul was taught by grace how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.,Paul learned how to live soberly, righteously and godly in his present world at that time he was here on earth. He surely understood grace in the life.

Paul learned as any learning believer does who has the HolySpirit that Jesus will live His life through us when we believe the truth of who we are IN Christ. We have this treasure in earthen vessels.
We have been given salvation., now we walk it out.

Paul knew he had been given self control, he knew he did not have a spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind. Just like we do. But Paul walked it out. And that is what we are learning to do.

Again., so much can get lost in these posts we try to clearly put our ideas down yet still they can be mis-read or mis-judged.

Romans tells us about the battle of the young Christian or the Christian who has not read the Bible a lot.
Paul told how there is a battle for the mind. He wants to do the right but ended up doing or thinking the wrong. But that is a comfort for Christians all over who see the duel fight. The answer... JESUS.
Thank God HE not Paul.

A Christian like Paul is able to discern how to walk in the fullness of salvation. No condemnation but full salvation.

Hi lynn
I thought you believed Paul was talking as a christian in rom 7:14-25 not of his life as a Pharisee. Only in those verses he said he was sold as a slave to sin and could not do the good he wanted to do, but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.
In regard to the example I gave of a man seeing victory over alcohol after a month of his conversion. I absolutely stand by that.
Paul tells us we must cross over from being slaves of sin when we come to Christ into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. He clearly states this process takes time( Galatians 2:15-18)
Charles Spurgeon agreed this is not instantaneous. I actually believe it is hugely damaging for a person who may have cone from an awful background and be beset by many taboo sins if you like to be told they must all instantly vanish or the persons salvation I in jeopardy. Indeed, I believe such an approach has been one of the main reasons the majority of churchgoers come from more secure, loving backgrounds, therefore they are far less likely be beset by the taboo sins that many believe must instantly all cease the moment a person gets saved
This crossing over period takes tine, but for those who stand by faith in Christ, bot by observing the law they will cross over from one state to another assuredly.
I would again reiterate. I spoke of one off examples of christians who had crossed over from one state to the other. I did NOT speak of these people habitually getting drunk or sleeping with woman after woman. I want to be clear on that

 

[ladylynn]

Paul said and shown the no condemnation is to those who walk by the Spirit.

He said those who walk by the flesh do not please God and are enmity to Him.

Enmity means not reconciled, and in order to receive eternal life we have to be reconciled to God.

I already said in my post #1327 that the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

#1327
A carnal Christian does not understand grace. For that man is seeking to ruin a marriage and family. That man is not walking as Christ walks. That man is NOT even SEEING to walk as Christ walks. That man does not love others as Christ has loved him. That man is carnal., and the carnal mind is enmity with God., it does not understand what grace in the life means for the Christian. And I have to say that man is NOT an example of a person who is walking in the fullness of his salvation. He is walking according to his flesh. That guy is not joyful., not content.,not walking out his salvation with all seriousness or sober mindedness. ====================================================================================


There are many Christians today that walk around carnally minded and that is why they do not have the joy, power or understanding of their salvation. They have been saved and reconciled to God IN Christ but they are not walking it out properly. Romans 8:7

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God.,nor indeed can be."

It goes on to say in vs.8 says.. "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Read on to vs.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His...

The way to 'be one of His' is to have the Spirit of Christ in you.

Not based on works, but reconciled by Christ. So there are believers who are carnally minded and their works do not please God. But the person is indeed saved and forgiven but not walking in the freedom of his/her salvation. Major difference. God is not pleased with the walk/works but is always pleased with the believer., loves the son or daughter despite the carnal walk, that is indeed where the GRACE comes in for the believer to know they have the love of the Father at all times.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes Dr. ladylynn..Good synopsis....learning about "differences" is helping me to grow in the grace of our Lord...

There is a difference between "sin" which is in the flesh and "sinning". which is an action ..us yielding to the flesh ( this does not affect our inner man which has been created in righteousness and holiness - no going from a sheep back to a goat..etc )

There is a difference between being in the Light ( believer in Christ ) and being in darkness (unbeliever )

There is a difference between being in the flesh ( unbeliever ) and being in the Spirit ( believer in Christ )


There is a difference between walking according to the flesh ( yielding to "sin" in the flesh which is in our body ) and walking according ( yielding to the Spirit within the believer AKA new creation in Christ ) to the Spirit.

We have in our flesh which is in our body the parasite called sin...the body which houses flesh in it....also houses our new nature in Christ..the inner man..the new creation.

The real us only has ONE nature..it';s the nature of God in us because we are in Christ. The flesh in our body is not the real us.

think of it "sin" as a foreign "entity" within us in our flesh in our body.

In genesis 4:7 God says that sin is crouching at the door and "it's" ( the hebrew word here for "its" is masculine ).....as if it is an "entity"...not a person but something that speaks to us..if you will..most likely the nature of our enemy..just a theory...lol

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us..

sin is reigned in Paul's flesh....BUT we are not in the flesh....we are in Christ..so once we have knowledge of us in Christ and no condemnation....we learn to walk by the Spirit..

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us....self-control is a fruit of the Spirit - not the flesh's willpower...different things..one is a product of the flesh..the other is a fruit..

I already said in my post #1327 that the carnal mind is at enmity with God.

Read on to vs.9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His...

The way to 'be one of His' is to have the Spirit of Christ in you.
.

 

[james57]

Yes Dr. ladylynn..Good synopsis....learning about "differences" is helping me to grow in the grace of our Lord...

There is a difference between "sin" which is in the flesh and "sinning". which is an action ..us yielding to the flesh ( this does not affect our inner man which has been created in righteousness and holiness - no going from a sheep back to a goat..etc )

There is a difference between being in the Light ( believer in Christ ) and being in darkness (unbeliever )

There is a difference between being in the flesh ( unbeliever ) and being in the Spirit ( believer in Christ )


There is a difference between walking according to the flesh ( yielding to "sin" in the flesh which is in our body ) and walking according ( yielding to the Spirit within the believer AKA new creation in Christ ) to the Spirit.

We have in our flesh which is in our body the parasite called sin...the body which houses flesh in it....also houses our new nature in Christ..the inner man..the new creation.

The real us only has ONE nature..it';s the nature of God in us because we are in Christ. The flesh in our body is not the real us.

think of it "sin" as a foreign "entity" within us in our flesh in our body.

In genesis 4:7 God says that sin is crouching at the door and "it's" ( the hebrew word here for "its" is masculine ).....as if it is an "entity"...not a person but something that speaks to us..if you will..most likely the nature of our enemy..just a theory...lol

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us..

sin is reigned in Paul's flesh....BUT we are not in the flesh....we are in Christ..so once we have knowledge of us in Christ and no condemnation....we learn to walk by the Spirit..

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us....self-control is a fruit of the Spirit - not the flesh's willpower...different things..one is a product of the flesh..the other is a fruit..

With the greatest of respect I really cannot understand your viewpoint on this and i mean that sincerely.
you agree, a christian cannot sin in their new nature only in the flesh. So on that we agree. So when Paul speaks of the christian living a holy life, when he speaks of sin not being our master, when he stresses Godly living he must obviously mean sin in the flesh being dealt with. He cannot mean the new man spirit in us, for i repeat you and I both believe the new nature cannot sin.
But you accept sin reigned in the flesh of paul.
I will repeat yet again. When Paul speaks of living pure and holy lives, following after the spirit he has to mean dealing with sin in the flesh. There is no impurity in the new nature to deal with.
So if Paul is in his flesh sold as a slave to sin, if in his flesh he cannot do good but only evil, that which he hates, if sin reigns in his flesh, how is Paul living out his gospel message in his own life.

You see what I am saying dont you? Perhaps you could explain exactly your belief on this in simple terms
Thank you

 

[Grace777x70]

by yielding to the spirit instead of yielding to the flesh

With the greatest of respect I really cannot understand your viewpoint on this and i mean that sincerely.
you agree, a christian cannot sin in their new nature only in the flesh. So on that we agree. So when Paul speaks of the christian living a holy life, when he speaks of sin not being our master, when he stresses Godly living he must obviously mean sin in the flesh being dealt with. He cannot mean the new man spirit in us, for i repeat you and I both believe the new nature cannot sin.
But you accept sin reigned in the flesh of paul.
I will repeat yet again. When Paul speaks of living pure and holy lives, following after the spirit he has to mean dealing with sin in the flesh. There is no impurity in the new nature to deal with.
So if Paul is in his flesh sold as a slave to sin, if in his flesh he cannot do good but only evil, that which he hates, if sin reigns in his flesh, how is Paul living out his gospel message in his own life.

You see what I am saying dont you? Perhaps you could explain exactly your belief on this in simple terms
Thank you

 

[james57]

by yielding to the spirit instead of yielding to the flesh

But you admit Paul did yield to the flesh. You believe sin reigned in Paul's flesh. You believe all Paul's christian life he could not do the good he wanted to do( follow,after the spirit) but the evil, he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did( followed after the flesh.)
So clearly Paul was constantly yielding to the flesh in rom7:14-25

So with the greatest of respect I really cannot understand your position on this

 

[Grace777x70]

"Sin" is different from "sinning"


we all can and do yield to the "sin" ( the entity ) that is in the flesh.....when we act on what the "sin" wants us to do...we are sinning.... committing an act

"sin" ( entity ) is in the flesh.. When Paul is talking in roman 7:14-25 I believe Paul was just describing a condition or situation...the warfare of the "sin" in our flesh against in our minds....he says nothing about the spirit here as he is just describing how "sin" is in his flesh which is in his body and how he can't do what he wants....so, he wants to do good in his mind but the law of sin in his members is overwhelming him..... he is just "setting the scene up"

How does he get free from this flesh/sin stuff?..Chapter 8..tells how..through knowing there is no condemnation in Christ..and then verses later talks about walking according to the spirit and not the flesh..in Christ..in who we are in the inner man

But you admit Paul did yield to the flesh. You believe sin reigned in Paul's flesh. You believe all Paul's christian life he could not do the good he wanted to do( follow,after the spirit) but the evil, he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did( followed after the flesh.)
So clearly Paul was constantly yielding to the flesh in rom7:14-25

So with the greatest of respect I really cannot understand your position on this

 

[james57]

UT

"Sin" is different from "sinning"


we all can and do yield to the "sin" ( the entity ) that is in the flesh.....when we act on what the "sin" wants us to do...we are sinning.... committing an act

"sin" ( entity ) is in the flesh.. When Paul is talking in roman 7:14-25 I believe Paul was just describing a condition or situation...the warfare of the "sin" in our flesh against in our minds....he says nothing about the spirit here as he is just describing how "sin" is in his flesh which is in his body and how he can't do what he wants....so, he wants to do good in his mind but the law of sin in his members is overwhelming him..... he is just "setting the scene up"

How does he get free from this flesh/sin stuff?..Chapter 8..tells how..through knowing there is no condemnation in Christ..and then verses later talks about walking according to the spirit and not the flesh..in Christ..in who we are in the inner man

Yes he doesn't mention the holy spirit in chapter seven after verse 6, nor does he mention victory over the flesh in that chapter either, only defeat.

So it comes back to the same thing. If Paul is speaking as a mature christian in ch7:14-25 he was a slave to his flesh, it mastered him. He constantly yielded to the flesh rather than yielding to the spirit. He is speaking of the condition in those verses of sin being his master, and him being sins slave

 

[Grace777x70]

he was merely describing a situation ...like...I have this thing wrong inside of with me ...this is the condition.. he is not talking about how to overcome it....he is just describing it...(. in Chaper 8..he talks about how to walk in Christ)....in other words he could care less about talking about how to overcome this problem...because he is just talking about the problem to set us up for Chapter 8.....So..this has nothing to do with walking after the Spirit

UT

Yes he doesn't mention the holy spirit in chapter seven after verse 6, nor does he mention victory over the flesh in that chapter either, only defeat.

So it comes back to the same thing. If Paul is speaking as a mature christian in ch7:14-25 he was a slave to his flesh, it mastered him. He constantly yielded to the flesh rather than yielding to the spirit. He is speaking of the condition in those verses of sin being his master, and him being sins slave

 

[james57]

he was merely describing a situation ...like...I have this thing wrong inside of with me ...this is the condition.. he is not talking about how to overcome it....he is just describing it...(. in Chaper 8..he talks about how to walk in Christ)....in other words he could care less about talking about how to overcome this problem...because he is just talking about the problem to set us up for Chapter 8.....So..this has nothing to do with walking after the Spirit

Absolutely, ch 7:14-25 has nothing at all to do with walking after the spirit. Paul the christian walked after the spirit, Paul the Pharisee did not.
Sin was the master of Paul the Pharisee, Paul preached sin would be your master if you were under law, not if you were under grace
Paul the Pharisee was under law, therefore sin was his master and he was sins slave.
Therefore the condition of Paul the Pharisee is perfectly summed up in ch7:14-25.

Anyway, we will have to let the unbiased observer decide which of our views they think more likely to be the correct one ( if unbiased observers are on cc lol)

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..unbias?..do they exist?..lol..

I think Paul is talking about himself as a Christian without thinking as a Christian ( because he does know what the answer is but he doesn't want to talk about it yet because he wants to describe the condition first )..if that makes sense..lol

Kinda like a coin....the coin has 2 sides....but Paul is only describing one side of the coin without reference to the other side....but he does know the other side of the coin is wonderful!..lol

Absolutely, ch 7:14-25 has nothing at all to do with walking after the spirit. Paul the christian walked after the spirit, Paul the Pharisee did not.
Sin was the master of Paul the Pharisee, Paul preached sin would be your master if you were under law, not if you were under grace
Paul the Pharisee was under law, therefore sin was his master and he was sins slave.
Therefore the condition of Paul the Pharisee is perfectly summed up in ch7:14-25.

Anyway, we will have to let the unbiased observer decide which of our views they think more likely to be the correct one ( if unbiased observers are on cc lol)

 

[james57]

LOL..unbias?..do they exist?..lol..

I think Paul is talking about himself as a Christian without thinking as a Christian ( because he does know what the answer is but he doesn't want to talk about it yet because he wants to describe the condition first )..if that makes sense..lol

Kinda like a coin....the coin has 2 sides....but Paul is only describing one side of the coin without reference to the other side....but he does know the other side of the coin is wonderful!..lol

Well I will give you ten out of ten for effort!

However, if Paul is speaking as a christian in those verses it doesn't matter how much exegesis a person tries to do, it would mean:
Paul the christian didn't follow after the spirit
Sin was Paul the christians master and ge was sins slave

Now if the above is true, Paul's gospel message collapses.

For his whole message revolves around sin NOT being the christians master for they are not under law but under grace.

But I tend to think, if you want to preach the Gospel you believe correct to help others, websites like this are the last place to do it. For admitting we( and I do mean WE) could be wrong I a bridge too far, and not something to be contemplated

 

[Grace777x70]

Lol..It's difficult sometimes to articulate things...

I think Paul in Rom 7:14-25 could care less about talking about following after the spirit....as he wasn't interested in the spirit....he was just describing the sin in his flesh situation...without any reference to walking after the spirit.

Sin does not have dominion over us in our inner man.... the new creation....that we know for sure!!!

It can be confusing to try to type things out. One on one makes for a MUCH better way to discuss things! We are all learning new things too! We are constantly repenting!

I'm off to watch an old re-run of 24..have a good night buddy!

Well I will give you ten out of ten for effort!

However, if Paul is speaking as a christian in those verses it doesn't matter how much exegesis a person tries to do, it would mean:
Paul the christian didn't follow after the spirit
Sin was Paul the christians master and ge was sins slave

Now if the above is true, Paul's gospel message collapses.

For his whole message revolves around sin NOT being the christians master for they are not under law but under grace.

But I tend to think, if you want to preach the Gospel you believe correct to help others, websites like this are the last place to do it. For admitting we( and I do mean WE) could be wrong I a bridge too far, and not something to be contemplated

 

[james57]

Lol..It's difficult sometimes to articulate things...

I think Paul in Rom 7:14-25 could care less about talking about following after the spirit....as he wasn't interested in the spirit....he was just describing the sin in his flesh situation...without any reference to walking after the spirit.

Sin does not have dominion over us in our inner man.... the new creation....that we know for sure!!!

It can be confusing to try to type things out. One on one makes for a MUCH better way to discuss things! We are all learning new things too! We are constantly repenting!

I'm off to watch an old re-run of 24..have a good night buddy!

I shall leave you with the last word on the subject. If I make another comment you might feel the urge to respond and i don't want to be responsible for you being taken away from the tv lol. Plus it is very late in the uk
Goodnight

 

[PeterJens]

"Sin" is different from "sinning"

In essence you actually admit total defeat over sin. Your argument is to split a human into the flesh and the spirit, and the flesh will always sin, or be a slave to sin.

Jesus walked this earth in the flesh, with all the impulses of a human yet did not sin. His example was in communion with the Lord we can be free from the slavery of sin, walking in the Spirit. But for me this means the whole of me, my body, soul and spirit.

A lot of the argument here is really about models of psychology, loyalty, love. If you truly see Jesus, His nature and desires and our abject failure, righteousness is the obvious road to walk. You call this grace, but want to change your theology rather than accept seeing Jesus fully with a pure heart takes time. It also appears many hated feeling a failure as a sinner, and feel now this sense of failure was not a conviction of the Holy Spirit. The problem with this hypothesis is the Holy Spirit has been sent to convict people about sin.

Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 16:7-11

But the next step is to see Jesus on the cross as the most powerful statement of sacrifice love and commitment, which should renew our souls and empower us on.

But people would rather wallow in self condemnation and not accept love, because love truly means you have to love others, and that for many is just a step too far.

A the twist Joseph Prince puts on it all, is to accuse ordinary faithful people of God as pharisees. The only problem with the pharisees is they sinned and denied their failure. Nothing has changed today, if you deny your sin you do not have the truth within you. But if you walk in love and righteousness, the Lord walks with you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Actually the truth is that because we have a new nature in Christ - "sin" shall not have dominion over us who are under grace. The body is not evil - the flesh is where the "sin" principal lives.

We do not deny sin...we just deny it's domination over us because of what Jesus did for us in His finished work.

The flesh does not have to dominate us because we can choose to walk according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It's all about identity. If we identify with the flesh = death.. but if we identify with our new creation in Christ ( Spirit) we have life and peace.

Romans 8:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

We have a new spirit within us now because of the new birth. It's all about the new creation. We need to "look" to our new nature in Christ.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Graced-based believing says to look to Jesus for everything! See who you are in Christ. When we see who Christ has made us in our inner man ( spirit )..also called new man..we become like Him. We flow wiith His love and compassion for others.

His life is what sets us free from being a slave to sin that is in our flesh.

Romans 8:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Thank God for the Holy Spirit as He does convict/convince the world that they do not believe in Jesus!

He convicts us that we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Praise God!

We walk out in our lives out of our identity in Christ. Our mind gets renewed to who we really are in Christ and then we are transformed outwardly. I have written about this numerous times.

We walk out His life on this earth by walking according to the Spirit. We need to identity with Christ that is in us!

True about those Pharisees...they were self-righteous. Depending on THEIR obedience to scripture but they would not come to Christ. and trust fully in Him. The true Christian life is seeing who you are in Christ because of the new creation in Him.

The Pharisee spirit is always against grace as can be seen vividly in our Lord's dealings with them. Pharisees want to deny what the Lord has done for them and to live their own life not rally depending on the Lord's life.

John 5:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;[SUP]40 [/SUP] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

It's all about identity! Either we choose to live with who we are in Christ now...or the traditions of men and trust in "what we do" in our flesh. We either create an Ishmael by what "we do" or allow God to produce an Isaac ( believing in Christ's finished work. )

Good works will be a fruit of acknowledging our new creation in Christ but it is always Him that is producing the fruit in us. He gets all the glory.
Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Let's agree with the awesome salvation that our Lord Jesus and become who we really are in Him!

In essence you actually admit total defeat over sin. Your argument is to split a human into the flesh and the spirit, and the flesh will always sin, or be a slave to sin.

Jesus walked this earth in the flesh, with all the impulses of a human yet did not sin. His example was in communion with the Lord we can be free from the slavery of sin, walking in the Spirit. But for me this means the whole of me, my body, soul and spirit.

A lot of the argument here is really about models of psychology, loyalty, love. If you truly see Jesus, His nature and desires and our abject failure, righteousness is the obvious road to walk. You call this grace, but want to change your theology rather than accept seeing Jesus fully with a pure heart takes time. It also appears many hated feeling a failure as a sinner, and feel now this sense of failure was not a conviction of the Holy Spirit. The problem with this hypothesis is the Holy Spirit has been sent to convict people about sin.

Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
John 16:7-11

But the next step is to see Jesus on the cross as the most powerful statement of sacrifice love and commitment, which should renew our souls and empower us on.

But people would rather wallow in self condemnation and not accept love, because love truly means you have to love others, and that for many is just a step too far.

A the twist Joseph Prince puts on it all, is to accuse ordinary faithful people of God as pharisees. The only problem with the pharisees is they sinned and denied their failure. Nothing has changed today, if you deny your sin you do not have the truth within you. But if you walk in love and righteousness, the Lord walks with you.

 

[PeterJens]

Actually the truth is that because we have a new nature in Christ - "sin" shall not have dominion over us who are under grace. The body is not evil - the flesh is where the "sin" principal lives.

You make things too complicated. Sinful deeds are just that deeds.
They are a sign of spiritual blindness, not understanding the basic principles of life and love.

Jesus talks about walking in the light for a reason. People know money by itself is pointless, or that flash car or enormous house, but they still gain great pleasure making others envy. It is the joy each moment brings, the knowing love and acceptance by the creator that makes me sing. But if inside you are a mess, things wired up all wrong, it is easier to do the act and make people believe you have something of value. But pull away the veil and too often there is nothing behind.

Jesus was making this point all the time. If you sell your integrity you loose everything, but if you buy righteousness of the Kingdom through faith in Jesus you have eternity and real life in the here and now.

Sin is always about selling this reality short. The poor who desire wealth so much and gain a little are so bigotted their answer to this expression of life is "They only say that because they know they will never be rich and have just given up, losers."

Now in this discussion it is like discussing about an incurable disease. If you can see the nature of sin, because you know what love is, it looses its power, because it gives you nothing, it is that simple.