“Live in the Spirit, Walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N

NetChaplain

Guest
#1
One of the most significant lessons to learn in the first flush of our rebirth is that though we possess the Spirit of God we will not be readily equipped with the necessary knowledge to receive mature direction from Him until there is an ample amount of time in Word-study. One can possess knowledge of the Scriptures without God’s assistance—but not understanding and application—which comes only by His Spirit (1Cor 2:13; Gal 5:17). It was by the written Word of God that we became knowledgeable concerning the Father’s “drawing” to His Son (John 6:44; 14:6), thus it will be by His Word through the Spirit that we will progress unto maturity regarding “the image of His Son.”

The prior (live in the Spirit) is established at the redemption of our spirit (Rom 8:9); the latter is progressively learned until the redemption of our body (Rom 8:23). The one and all important thing to remember is that saints will traverse and conclude their journey according to the like manner in which it began—by the Spirit of God (John 3:5; Rom 8:16)! Thus the reason for Paul’s question to the immature Galatians, “Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh” (Gal 3:3)?

Gill (1697–1771) comments that, “Whereas they began their Christian race depending upon the Spirit and grace of God, now they seemed to be taking a step as if they thought to finish it in the mere strength of nature; and whereas they set out with the clear Gospel of Christ, and sought for justification only by His righteousness, they were now verging to the law, and seeking to make their justifying righteousness perfect, by joining the works of the law unto it, which needed them not, but was perfect without them.”

I believe one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today is Pharisee-ism, which is “legalism”, e.g. man attempting to be right with God under his own power. The modern concept of “Judeo-Christian” (originating only in America circa 1950s) only adds distraction to one desiring to understand Paul’s most frequent conflicts during his missionary work, which was teaching the differences between the two dispensations (Col 1:25).

Initially the term intended to define one who was converting to Christianity from Judaism, but the concept soon came to be understood as the attempt in unification of Judaism and Christianity, which is an impossibility when considering that Judaism will always be defined as “the monotheistic religion of the Jews, having its ethical, ceremonial, and legal foundation in the precepts of the Old Testament and in the teachings and commentaries of the rabbis as found chiefly in the Talmud” (Dictionary.com). This concept (Judeo-Christian) evinces not only the misunderstanding within contemporary Christendom concerning the present and prior dispensations, but the ramifications of such (if we possible) would obviously detract from both. Presently, one would be hard-pressed to find an orthodox Jew who would even conceive of such an admixture.

Ever since the fall, man has attempted to correct his mistake by self-effort (i.e. Gen 3:7). Most if not all, if we were to own up to it, have discovered this same scenario in the outset of our conversion. It is thought that the way to retain a right standing (stay saved) with God after coming to His Son is to do all we can to obey Him, which is commendable in the proper understanding (obedience evinces but not effects salvation), but nonetheless falls short of being totally God-dependent.

Remember, what we do must be in the proper accordance to how we are doing it, otherwise we will not move forward; maybe upward, downward, sideward or backward but not forward. The more we are taught to make our dependence upon God in everything, the more “fruit” we will “bear” that is of His produce and not our own, thus “glorifying” Him in ever increasing abundance (John 15:8).

Let us remember what the visiting angel said to Zerubbabel concerning the construction of the temple: “Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts” (Zec 4:6): “That is, that as the candlestick was supplied with oil, from the two olive trees by the side of it, without the help of any man, to pour in the oil, and trim the lamps, so the temple should be built by Zerubbabel, not through the multitude and strength of men, but through the Spirit of God, animating, exciting, encouraging, and strengthening them to go through the work.” Gill
httpshttp://www.christianity.com/bible/comments/zechariah/gill/zechariah4.htm
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#2
I believe one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today is Pharisee-ism, which is “legalism”, e.g. man attempting to be right with God under his own power. <<<----Okay...:rolleyes:...I don't know ANYONE who has ever told me they're "getting right with God under they OWN power
Why can't I find someone who actually talks like or tells me directly that they're "getting right with God under their own power"?

People talk as if this is something going on all the time. I've been to lots of different churches over the years. It's NOT being said. They're all talking about grace and I don't believe I've just gotten lucky. I live in Orange County CA, densely populated, tons of churches all over the place, all the way across the spectrum, lib-Christian to con-Christian, political and non political, none of them teach this and nobody in the congregation is talking this way.

I am sure I can find someone someplace that will talk that way but I already know it's going to take some serious time and effort.

Are you just creating this make believe problem to act like your fighting some noble fight against "one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today"?

Where will I actually find a real person telling me what you accuse so many Christians of believing?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#3
Why can't I find someone who actually talks like or tells me directly that they're "getting right with God under their own power"?

People talk as if this is something going on all the time. I've been to lots of different churches over the years. It's NOT being said. They're all talking about grace and I don't believe I've just gotten lucky. I live in Orange County CA, densely populated, tons of churches all over the place, all the way across the spectrum, lib-Christian to con-Christian, political and non political, none of them teach this and nobody in the congregation is talking this way.

I am sure I can find someone someplace that will talk that way but I already know it's going to take some serious time and effort.

Are you just creating this make believe problem to act like your fighting some noble fight against "one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today"?

Where will I actually find a real person telling me what you accuse so many Christians of believing?
I can only assume churches in the UK are not as advanced as churches in the US. From my experience in churches in the UK, in over forty years of going to church, most are trying to attain heaven by human effort, in effect under a law of righteousness
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#4
I can only assume churches in the UK are not as advanced as churches in the US. From my experience in churches in the UK, in over forty years of going to church, most are trying to attain heaven by human effort, in effect under a law of righteousness
Whats the name of the Church?
Where's the website link?
Maybe you're right but I want to see it.
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#5
Whats the name of the Church?
Where's the website link?
Maybe you're right but I want to see it.
Loads of churches, not just one.

You'll have to google churches in the UK, I don't have their web addresses to hand.
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#6
Loads of churches, not just one.

You'll have to google churches in the UK, I don't have their web addresses to hand.
Really...:rolleyes:
I don't need a list. Just one will do for a start.
You've been to them right?
40 years of going to church there and "most are trying to attain heaven by human effort"?
You MUST know a couple at least right?
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#7
Really...:rolleyes:
I don't need a list. Just one will do for a start.
You've been to them right?
40 years of going to church there and "most are trying to attain heaven by human effort"?
You MUST know a couple at least right?
I don't know web addresses of any of them no
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#8
I think what is happening is that no one actually comes out and says "..You have to get right by your own power "..everyone knows that we are saved by grace.

The real question is..how does that play out in real life? Many have mixed the covenants up and diluted the New Covenant in the mean time...I think that's what they are talking about.

It's in the mindset...
In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..so they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

This old covenant mindset makes it a work for you "to achieve"

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ . they would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments because I love Him"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

We love, because He first loved us.
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#9
I don't know web addresses of any of them no
What are the names of them?
You accused over half the churches over there over of "trying to attain heaven by human effort".
That's a LOT, you should be able to back it up. Especially if it's based on over 40 years experience.
By the way, we already know you could have done the googling yourself since it's your accusation. And since you know about these churches you should at least know the names and cities of them. It's a lot easier for you to use that info in your searches than someone who's never even been to your country. Especially since your bearing UN-false witness against them, right.:)
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#11
What are the names of them?
You accused over half the churches over there over of "trying to attain heaven by human effort".
That's a LOT, you should be able to back it up. Especially if it's based on over 40 years experience.
By the way, we already know you could have done the googling yourself since it's your accusation. And since you know about these churches you should at least know the names and cities of them. It's a lot easier for you to use that info in your searches than someone who's never even been to your country. Especially since your bearing UN-false witness against them, right.:)

Tell you what.
You google churches in the Uk
Listen to some sermons, and then tell me how many you listen to that state Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Then the christian is not to follow the literal letter of commandments toblive a holy life, but the holy spirit in order that the fruit of the spirit might be seen in them. Against such things there is no law.

As you are getting extremely animated about this, go ahead. Let me know if you find that over half the sermons you listen to state what i have mentioned. If you do, I will admit I have borne false witness
 
Last edited:
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#13
I think what is happening is that no one actually comes out and says "..You have to get right by your own power "<<Then we can assume they don't believe it.everyone knows that we are saved by grace.<<<That was my point all along

The real question is..how does that play out in real life? Many have mixed the covenants up and diluted the New Covenant in the mean time...I think that's what they are talking about.

It's in the mindset...
In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..so they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

This old covenant mindset makes it a work for you "to achieve"

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ . they would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments because I love Him"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

We love, because He first loved us.
I've been hearing about this supposed problem way too long and see evidence of it way too little.
It's way past time to actually show those churches and people.
Real world examples...not finger pointing accusations
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#14
Tell you what.
You google churches in the Uk
Listen to some sermons, and then tell me how many you listen to that state Jesus died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Then the christian is not to follow the literal letter of commandments toblive a holy life, but the holy spirit in order that the fruit of the spirit might be seen in them. Against such things there is no law.

As you are getting extremely animated about this, go ahead. Let me know if you find that over half the sermons you listen to state what i have mentioned. If you do, I will admit I have borne false witness
NO...it's your accusation. You do it.
Until then, your down as one making an accusation that cannot be backed up.
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#15
NO...it's your accusation. You do it.
Until then, your down as one making an accusation that cannot be backed up.
Lol, I don't have to do it at all. You are the one inferring I am bearing false witness. Prove it. Google churches in the UK and see I over half of them preach what I stated.

If you don't, you have no evidence to infer I am bearing false witness do you.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#16
I don't know ANYONE who has ever told me they're "getting right with God under they OWN power

I have never heard that actual term used before..I was trying to figure out what that meant in terms of churches.

Maybe it has something to do with starting out by the hearing of faith and then trying to maintain the Christian walk by the flesh..doing "works"

Perhaps they were alluding to what the Galatians had fallen back into..??

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I didn't see anything about a real church that can be contacted where a REAL person will say yes we believe in trying to attain heaven by human effort.

There must be one right?
 
Oct 21, 2015
2,420
12
0
#17
I don't know ANYONE who has ever told me they're "getting right with God under they OWN power

I have never heard that actual term used before..I was trying to figure out what that meant in terms of churches.

Maybe it has something to do with starting out by the hearing of faith and then trying to maintain the Christian walk by the flesh..doing "works"

Perhaps they were alluding to what the Galatians had fallen back into..??

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
It has everything to do with getting saved by faith and trying to stay saved by works.
Every church I have ever been to will tell you repent and ask Christ into your life as Lord and saviour and you are saved.

It is what happens next that is the problem.
Paul tells us we must cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. In gal 2:15-18 he plainly states Thi takes time and is achieved not by observing the law but by faith in Christ.
How many christians, once made aware of their sin through the law being placed within them look to Christ and away from themselves, trysting him to deal with the sin they are a slave to? And while they are doing this they stand on a sole righteousness of faith in Christ.

And how many, once made aware of their sin, focus on the sin itself, believing they must cease their sin of their own volition or they will lose their salvation( or be in grave danger of losing it.( righteousness by observing the law)

I have asked many people in many different denominations what they believe a person must do once a christian to attain heaven. The vast majority reply.
Obey the ten commandments
 
Last edited:
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#18
It has everything to do with getting saved by faith and trying to stay saved by works.
Every church I have ever been to will tell you repent and ask Christ into your life as Lord and saviour and you are saved.

It is what happens next that is the problem.
Paul tells us we must cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. In gal 2:15-18 he plainly states Thi takes time and is achieved not by observing the law but by faith in Christ.
How many christians, once made aware of their sin through the law being placed within them look to Christ and away from themselves, trysting him to deal with the sin they are a slave to? And while they are doing this they stand on a sole righteousness of faith in Christ.

And how many, once made aware of their sin, focus on the sin itself, believing they must cease their sin of their own volition or they will lose their salvation( or be in grave danger of losing it.( righteousness by observing the law)

I have asked many people in many different denominations what they believe a person must do once a christian to attain heaven. The vast majority reply.
Obey the ten commandments
I don't understand why Christians focus so much on sin and the law, it has nothing to do with the Christian walk or pleasing God.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#19
The number one enemy of Jesus is religion. Religion uses "the word of God" as can be seen with Jesus interacting with the Pharisees, Saducees and lawyers of the law but they will not come to Jesus!

Sin is not the problem anymore if you are in Christ. It's living the Christian life by self-effort which is the whole basis of religion.

John 5:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;[SUP]40 [/SUP] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


I don't understand why Christians focus so much on sin and the law, it has nothing to do with the Christian walk or pleasing God.
 
B

Babylonisfalling

Guest
#20
Lol, I don't have to do it at all. You are the one inferring I am bearing false witness. Prove it. Google churches in the UK and see I over half of them preach what I stated.

If you don't, you have no evidence to infer I am bearing false witness do you.
I thought you'd been going to these churches for over forty years....and you can't tell me the name of even ONE?