Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

I'm not sure what Andrew was getting at there with "deserved life"..perhaps because He lived sinless, He deserved to live eternally? I never really gave it a thought before.

I know that "propitiation" means mercy seat....which I think means "fully Satisfied" which goes along with your God became the answer to His high standard so He Himself gave us the answer.

I think the point that Andrew was getting to was that the law was spiritual....we have flesh. I do know that the word in romans 7:14 is not the same one as in Romans 6:14 translated as slave . To say that we are a "slave" here would be not quite accurate in would appear. "to be sold" is the real term. Now what that means is up for grabs here...lol

Romans 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, "sold into bondage" to sin. This word has been used 9 times and 8 of them just talk about "selling" goods. This is the only place they insert "bondage"..I believe KJV has "sold" here.

I guess now the question is..

Was Paul describing a condition that has already been taken care of through the new birth, ( because he was "just describing the condition" without any reference to how the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free )....or was he saying that even mature Christians are doomed to lives of schizophrenia (i.e., a split mind) where part of us wants to serve God and part of us wants to serve the devil?

I have heard it put this way for Romans 7:14-15 The discovery of the parasite called "sin" which is in our flesh - which shows up when the law comes.".... so here Paul is just describing the "condition" not the solution.

I enjoy A.Wommack's commentary too. Although not sure about this part here about Jesus deserved eternal life as a payment.. Just never thought of Him that way since He is God and the whole 'propitiation' meaning. But just never heard of it put like that before. God is never in a position to deserve anything since that goes without question right?. Since Jesus never sinned and had no sin nature he not only wouldn't sin He couldn't sin. He didn't deserve to die in the first place so he didn't need to deserve eternal life since He IS eternal life. So in that way I don't really know how to take A.Wommacks commentary on this.

From what I remember about the word 'propitiation' is God became the answer to His high standard so He Himself gave us the answer. It was His standard and He met it... isn't that the meaning of propitiation?

 

[james57]

I'm not sure what Andrew was getting at there with "deserved life"..perhaps because He lived sinless, He deserved to live eternally? I never really gave it a thought before.

I know that "propitiation" means mercy seat....which I think means "fully Satisfied" which goes along with your God became the answer to His high standard so He Himself gave us the answer.

I think the point that Andrew was getting to was that the law was spiritual....we have flesh. I do know that the word in romans 7:14 is not the same one as in Romans 6:14 translated as slave . To say that we are a "slave" here would be not quite accurate in would appear. "to be sold" is the real term. Now what that means is up for grabs here...lol

Romans 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, "sold into bondage" to sin. This word has been used 9 times and 8 of them just talk about "selling" goods. This is the only place they insert "bondage"..I believe KJV has "sold" here.

I guess now the question is..

Was Paul describing a condition that has already been taken care of through the new birth, ( because he was "just describing the condition" without any reference to how the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free )....or was he saying that even mature Christians are doomed to lives of schizophrenia (i.e., a split mind) where part of us wants to serve God and part of us wants to serve the devil?

I have heard it put this way for Romans 7:14-15 The discovery of the parasite called "sin" which is in our flesh - which shows up when the law comes.".... so here Paul is just describing the "condition" not the solution.

Paul is describing the condition not the solution in rom 7:14-25?

But you don't believe there was a solution, for you believe that is how Paul lived out his entire christian life

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree ladylynn. When I read romans 7:14-25 - what struck me was this "sin" that dwelled in our flesh...a left over residue from the fall of Adam. This flesh is not the real us. The body is good because Jesus had a body.

That's why there is a difference between "sin" and "sinning" Sin is a noun which is a person, place or things. It's an identity..an "entity" if you will in our flesh. The real us is our new creation in Christ. That's why Paul talks about the circumcision of the flesh and heart.. Also called the circumcision of Christ. We have been separated from our flesh and our new man in Christ.

God "cut away " ( as in natural circumcision ) our flesh from our inner man and sealed with with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The greek structure here is rich in meaning when it says ..you were sealed = ( aorist passive )

It is in the aorist tense = past tense.

It is passive = this means an action is happening to you without your participating in it.

So, when we receive Jesus the Holy Spirit seals us by separating our flesh ( where that pesky "sin" parasite still remains ) from our true real nature which is the new man in Christ...created in righteousness and holiness.

We are still responsible to choose to walk according to the Spirit in us and not according to the flesh. We are to tell our body ( which houses the flesh with the "sin" in it ) what to do and as we follow " the life of Christ " in us..His fruit is produced in and through us which manifests as "good fruits of righteousness "...but it is His fruit....not something we manufacture ourselves.

Knowing this...then the considering yourself to be dead to sin becomes takes on new fresh meaning...I hope I am articulating what I'm seeing here...lol

Wow., totally agree with that amazing post Grace777!!! Those words just ring through to my heart!!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I enjoy your long posts. .sometimes it takes more words to describe "things". .of course I identify with that because I write loooong ones sometimes too..lol

I'm sorry James57, you are right, my posts do tend to get long. I get an idea and start running with it and let my fingers do the running on the keyboard. Thankfully typing is fun. But I will try and shorten my posts. Thanks.

 

[Grace777x70]

( because he was "just describing the condition" without any reference to how the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free )....

Yes....there definitely is a solution and it is "No condemnation in Christ...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.

Paul and all of us still have "sin" in our flesh..it dwells there until we die physically because it is attached to our body. ( which is why we are to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh with it's lusts/desires
Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, if we walk by the spirit we will not give in to the flesh.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.




I think Paul's whole point was his discovery of the parasite "sin" in his flesh that was warring against his mind.

Paul is describing the condition not the solution in rom 7:14-25?

But you don't believe there was a solution, for you believe that is how Paul lived out his entire christian life

 

[james57]

( because he was "just describing the condition" without any reference to how the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free )....

Yes....there definitely is a solution and it is "No condemnation in Christ...the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.

Paul and all of us still have "sin" in our flesh..it dwells there until we die physically because it is attached to our body. ( which is why we are to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh with it's lusts/desires
Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

So, if we walk by the spirit we will not give in to the flesh.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.




I think Paul's whole point was his discovery of the parasite "sin" in his flesh that was warring against his mind.

But if you believe as you do, that Paul lived his whole life as described I rom7:14-25 there was obviously no solution, for nothing changed.
Yet you say we are to follow after the holy spirit therefore change comes. Yet you admit in those verses Paul fid not follow after the spirit. Therefore you must believe he never followed after the spirit as you say he was talking of his whole christian life.
It is a muddle isn't it

Yet you also agreed with a post of mine where I stated grace does not leave us unable to do the good we want to do, only leave us doing the evil we do not want to do.

I did advise you to give this subject up didn't i

 

[Grace777x70]

It's obvious that we not either using the right words to describe what is going on there or you are missing the entire message...please have a look at the videos that were given to you. These men are grace-based teachers sent to the Body of Christ to help us. I'm sure they will be able to articulate what we are trying to say much better!..

But if you believe as you do, that Paul lived his whole life as described I rom7:14-25 there was obviously no solution, for nothing changed.
Yet you say we are to follow after the holy spirit therefore change comes. Yet you admit in those verses Paul fid not follow after the spirit. Therefore you must believe he never followed after the spirit as you say he was talking of his whole christian life.
It is a muddle isn't it

Yet you also agreed with a post of mine where I stated grace does not leave us unable to do the good we want to do, only leave us doing the evil we do not want to do.

I did advise you to give this subject up didn't i

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's obvious that we not either using the right words to describe what is going on there or you are missing the entire message...please have a look at the videos that were given to you. These men are grace-based teachers sent to the Body of Christ to help us. I'm sure they will be able to articulate what we are trying to say much better!..

IMO Farley's just the opposite. He sounds like a typical post-modern deconstructionist who is absolutely convinced he knows what he's talking about, and has nary a clue.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree ladylynn. When I read romans 7:14-25 - what struck me was this "sin" that dwelled in our flesh...a left over residue from the fall of Adam. This flesh is not the real us. The body is good because Jesus had a body.

Simplistic thinking. Paul said there was nothing good in the flesh; you say it's good (the body is the flesh btw). Jesus' body was good because it had no sin. Paul said that his flesh was himself.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin. Romans 7:14

For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing [of] the good [is] not. Romans 7:18​

 

[Grace777x70]

Farley and in fact all grace-based teachers will definitely kill some "sacred cows" that we have from our religious traditions...lol and IMO...that is a blessing from our loving Father!

 

[james57]

It's obvious that we not either using the right words to describe what is going on there or you are missing the entire message...please have a look at the videos that were given to you. These men are grace-based teachers sent to the Body of Christ to help us. I'm sure they will be able to articulate what we are trying to say much better!..

There is no confusion over what i am saying. I am not contradicting myself.

I have to say, if you had a well thought out correct biblical view on this I am sure you would not be making contradictory statements.
I have already told you, videos that believe Paul lived the whole of his christian life unable to fo the good he wanted to do, only the evil he did not want to do are not videos I would spend my time watching. As that is what you believe the videos must stats the same thing
Yet once again, you tell me if someone follows the true path of grace they will not be left in the condition Paul was in romans 7

I honestly do wish you felt you could just drop Thi subject, for your sake
God bless

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[/B]So, when we receive Jesus the Holy Spirit seals us by separating our flesh ( where that pesky "sin" parasite still remains ) from our true real nature which is the new man in Christ...created in righteousness and holiness.

Just parroting Farley's words without understanding. Sin is not a parasite dwelling in our bodies; it is the very nature of our carnal being. We are given grace to walk contrary to it. That is the cross.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 7:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is the "sin" that he yields to ..that causes him to follow after the flesh.. we have a new man in Christ...the new creation....this is the real us!..the body is a house..merely a vessel to hold our treasure of Christ in now until He comes back and gives us a new body...that will be a great blessing1

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Simplistic thinking. Paul said there was nothing good in the flesh; you say it's good (the body is the flesh btw). Jesus' body was good because it had no sin. Paul said that his flesh was himself.

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin. Romans 7:14

For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing [of] the good [is] not. Romans 7:18​

 

[james57]

Romans 7:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is the "sin" that he yields to ..that causes him to follow after the flesh.. we have a new man in Christ...the new creation....this is the real us!..the body is a house..merely a vessel to hold our treasure of Christ in now until He comes back and gives us a new body...that will be a great blessing1

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

So it doesn't matter how much you sin in the flesh for you have a new nature and that is all that counts, oh boy

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Farley and in fact all grace-based teachers will definitely kill some "sacred cows" that we have from our religious traditions...lol and IMO...that is a blessing from our loving Father!

That's what all post-modern leaders think and teach. I've never been a part of the religious world, so I'm not one to embrace religious traditions.

 

[Grace777x70]

again we are back to the 2 natures thingy again...I suggest people go to the thread "Who is the real me as a Christian".

...that will give you all the ideas thrown back and forth from various people....and then everyone is free to choose how many true natures we have now in Christ due to the new creation.

Just parroting Farley's words without understanding. Sin is not a parasite dwelling in our bodies; it is the very nature of our carnal being. We are given grace to walk contrary to it. That is the cross.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So it doesn't matter how much you sin in the flesh for you have a new nature and that is all that counts, oh boy

The 'quantity' of sin in the flesh is irrelevant if a person walks contrary to it.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..where in the world did you get that idea from?

So it doesn't matter how much you sin in the flesh for you have a new nature and that is all that counts, oh boy

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 7:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

It is the "sin" that he yields to ..that causes him to follow after the flesh.. we have a new man in Christ...the new creation....this is the real us!..the body is a house..merely a vessel to hold our treasure of Christ in now until He comes back and gives us a new body...that will be a great blessing1

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Which just proves that Paul admitted that he had two natures. He identified himself as both.

 

[james57]

LOL..where in the world did you get that idea from?

Because you stress all Tha matters is the new nature, and you believe for the whole of Paul's life he stayed in the stats described in rom 7:14-25
Yet at the same time you say grace does not leave a person in the state you say Paul remained in all of his christian life.

I really wish you would take my advice and cease discussion of this subject, not for my sake but yours