Grace is the empowerment to overcome sin. To say it doesn't matter if no sin is overcome in your life is wrong, and it promotes a very weak gospel message
Hyper grace
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Grace is the empowerment to overcome sin. To say it doesn't matter if no sin is overcome in your life is wrong, and it promotes a very weak gospel message
Who says that it doesn't matter if no sin is overcome in a believer's life?.. that is ludicrous! ..
..this is getting to be definitely not profitable to continue with this line of discussion so I am bowing out.
..this is getting to be definitely not profitable to continue with this line of discussion so I am bowing out.
You are the one who is adamant Paul spent the whole of his life in the same condition of rom 7:15-25, but you stress as he had a new nature that is all that mattered.
I would advise you to spend Tim going over your posts and reflecting slowly on them
I really don't like the way you take something that was said and turn it totally into something else.
These comments arose from responses to grace770. You responded to what i had posted to him.
If he I happy Paul stayed the whole of his christian life as described in romans 7 if is in my view saying grace is not the empowerment to see much victory over sin, and a very weak gospel is being promoted
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there's a lot of baloney and human rationalization there. Why not take God's word for it that once we have received Jesus Christ, we are no longer guilty of sin, for it has been wiped away---erased forever? We don't live by fear. Perfect love casts out all fear. Instead, you would rather live a life of following after the law, living according to what you think is good behavior, being condemned by sin. Isn't that it? That is not how God has planned it for us.
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Well of course I knew you would have to say something like the above, the alternative would be to admit you didn't answer the question.
You might like to ask yourself why half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to holiness churches.
As for saying I would rather live under the law, Tha is nonsensical. The whole post I reason not to live under the law for it shows what happens by doing so
Well of course I knew you would have to say something like the above, the alternative would be to admit you didn't answer the question.
You might like to ask yourself why half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to holiness churches.
As for saying I would rather live under the law, Tha is nonsensical. The whole post I reason not to live under the law for it shows what happens by doing so
You have no clue of the background of people who are addicted to sex, and it makes no difference to this discussion. Unbelievers are addicted to sin!
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You can quote scripture, but you do not fully understand Paul's message.
Read rom7:7-11 KJV SLOWLY
OK so in the video the guy says that grace is "exaggerated". Do you think it is possible to exaggerate God's grace? Why or why not?
Also what is God's grace? Can we define it? I think we are having a really hard time talking about this in part because of miscomminication.
I have no problems understanding Paul. I think you do, however, and that is the reason for your argumentativeness.
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It is one thing to quote scripture, but it I good to understand what is being said and why
You are the one who started disagreeing with me.
Have a read of rom 7:7-11kjv contemplate on it. Let me know what conclusions you come to
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GOD's grace: passing over the condemnation rightly due us and dwelling with us in mercy that we may become like him.
Take what Michael Brown says with a grain of salt (he doesn't have the greatest track record IMO). I think his use of the term Hyper-Grace is unfortunate. There can never be too much grace.
Without the law we would not know what sin is, and would not be condemned, for we would not have a measure to line up against.
Romans 7:7-11
God’s Law Reveals Our Sin
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. [SUP]9 [/SUP]At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me.
Galatians 3:21-25
Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.
God’s Children through Faith
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.
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So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me
Rom 7:4-11
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[SUP][a][/SUP] free from the law of sin and death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[SUP][b][/SUP] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[SUP][c][/SUP] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:2-4
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law Gal5:22&23
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I don't think he is saying God gives out too much grace, I think he is saying we as humans exaggerate it. From what I understood he was saying that we have taken grace as a liscence to sin. That as long as we are "covered by grace" we are "free to sin" as opposed to "free from sin". Free from sin means we have to do our best to actively not sin. Free to sin means we accept that we are human and we sin and we make no concious effort not to sin.
He quoted from many hyper-grace teachers and I was shocked and horrified at what they were saying because I had heard some of those same things at some of the churches that were operating near where I live. It is horrible. I never understood it was so bad until I saw the video.
And I do believe we can have too much grace. Think of it like this. Lets say I murder someone but I'm covered by grace so it's ok. What about the family of the murder victim? Murder is an extreme example so lets go with social exsclusion. Let's say I am at a church and there is an autistic girl who is hard to handle. I decide I would rather not deal with her because I am only human and can only take so much. Besides I am saved by grace so God will forgive me for not loving up on one person.
Wheather we like it or not, all of our actions have eathly consequences and not all of those consequences directly affect us. Some of those consequences affect other people. Sometimes we hurt other people but "its ok because we're only human and we are saved by grace". Is that really how God opperates?
I have posted scripture after scripture and I can say that no one has posted back why those verses I posted are invalid. They just post verses of their own expecting their verses to be more valid than mine. So I'm leaing scripture out of this because of that. But I will say this, grace is good and it is a huge part of the Bible and Christianity but that is not all there is and we can't throw out other parts of the Bible because we want to focus on grace and grace alone.
Romans 5:18 - Romans 6:11
Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin’s Power Is Broken
6 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
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Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin’s Power Is Broken
6 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
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