“Live in the Spirit, Walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25)

[james57]

I thought you'd been going to these churches for over forty years....and you can't tell me the name of even ONE?

Kci international Windsor

Now produce a sermon of there's that states Jesus died for all your sins at calvary, past, present and future.
The christian is not to look to the letter of commandments and try to obey them for obedience but follow after the holy spirit. That is the way to obedience for against the fruits of the spirit there is no law.


When you have found such a sermon, give me the link, I will listen to it and then admit i have borne false witness

Now off you go!

 

[james57]

I thought you'd been going to these churches for over forty years....and you can't tell me the name of even ONE?

BTW

I haven't been to that church for years, but am sure you wont find a sermon such as I have described

 

[Babylonisfalling]

The number one enemy of Jesus is religion. Religion uses "the word of God" as can be seen with Jesus interacting with the Pharisees, Saducees and lawyers of the law but they will not come to Jesus!

Sin is not the problem anymore if you are in Christ. It's living the Christian life by self-effort which is the whole basis of religion.

John 5:39-40 (NASB)
[SUP]39 [/SUP] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;[SUP]40 [/SUP] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Christ never preached against religion.
And the Bible didn't condemn it either.

Religion itself is neutral, it can be overpracticed, it can be practiced in a good or bad way.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.


James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

One verse defines bad religion and one defines good religion.
Religion is not bad per say, it's but we can screw it up very easily.

 

[Grace777x70]

Perhaps a better term would be self-righteous, self-performance religion. Jesus is against the religious people's beliefs.

The "religious" used here in James is the word for "pious" in verse 26 The word in verse 27 = "Worship"

By religion I mean the universal quest for self-improvement.

Religion, on the other hand, keeps you bound with half-truths, bent-truths, and damnable lies. I am talking about the religion of the snake who said, “Do this and you will be like God.”

There are a bunch of lies told to us believers by "religious" people.

1. God is keeping score 2. God is mad at you 3. God is punishing you 4. God makes you sick to teach you things
5. God gives and takes away 6. God might reject you 7. God can be bought 8. God can’t be trusted

9. God doesn’t really love you

If you want explanations on these..check out this article..

The 9 Lies of Religion – Escape to Reality

Have a great day!!

Christ never preached against religion.
And the Bible didn't condemn it either.

Religion itself is neutral, it can be overpracticed, it can be practiced in a good or bad way.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.


James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

One verse defines bad religion and one defines good religion.
Religion is not bad per say, it's but we can screw it up very easily.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

BTW

I haven't been to that church for years, but am sure you wont find a sermon such as I have described

I'm not searching sermons, I sent them an email telling them that someone who once attended their church says they preach trying to attain heaven by human effort,
I asked them if this were true.
As I said before, it could be but it time people making those accusations finally started showing the churches that do it.
And for the sake of perspective, you've been claiming that "most" churches over there preach "trying to attain heaven by human effort."

Most means over half and now, after a huge hissy fit we have only one that you can name, out of all that you've attended in over forty years. And that church has yet to respond to your accusation.

 

[james57]

I'm not searching sermons, I sent them an email telling them that someone who once attended their church says they preach trying to attain heaven by human effort,
I asked them if this were true.
As I said before, it could be but it time people making those accusations finally started showing the churches that do it.
And for the sake of perspective, you've been claiming that "most" churches over there preach "trying to attain heaven by human effort."

Most means over half and now, after a huge hissy fit we have only one that you can name, out of all that you've attended in over forty years. And that church has yet to respond to your accusation.

Your the one whos been talking in a hissy fit. And you haven't been able to repudiate what I said have you. You just infer I am bearing false witness. That says a lot. Now if they reply to you, just what do you think they are going to say? sigh sigh!

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Perhaps a better term would be self-righteous, self-performance religion. Jesus is against the religious people's beliefs.

The "religious" used here in James is the word for "pious" in verse 26 The word in verse 27 = "Worship"

By religion I mean the universal quest for self-improvement.

Religion, on the other hand, keeps you bound with half-truths, bent-truths, and damnable lies. I am talking about the religion of the snake who said, “Do this and you will be like God.”

There are a bunch of lies told to us believers by "religious" people.

1. God is keeping score 2. God is mad at you 3. God is punishing you 4. God makes you sick to teach you things
5. God gives and takes away 6. God might reject you 7. God can be bought 8. God can’t be trusted

9. God doesn’t really love you

If you want explanations on these..check out this article..

The 9 Lies of Religion – Escape to Reality

Have a great day!!

Well if you want to go on about bad religion, that's one thing.
But all religion is not bad. The Bible defines good religion so it exists. It also defines bad religion.

As far as the snake religion, nobody in any church I've been to has told me "do and you will be like God."

And this...

1. God is keeping score 2. God is mad at you 3. God is punishing you 4. God makes you sick to teach you things
5. God gives and takes away 6. God might reject you 7. God can be bought 8. God can’t be trusted

...again, it's time to name the actual church because I don't remember ever being told these things in ANY church. And I presume such a church could exist somewhere. But it's time to name it.

What church says God can't be trusted?

 

[james57]

I'm not searching sermons, I sent them an email telling them that someone who once attended their church says they preach trying to attain heaven by human effort,
I asked them if this were true.
As I said before, it could be but it time people making those accusations finally started showing the churches that do it.
And for the sake of perspective, you've been claiming that "most" churches over there preach "trying to attain heaven by human effort."

Most means over half and now, after a huge hissy fit we have only one that you can name, out of all that you've attended in over forty years. And that church has yet to respond to your accusation.

Ill tell you this as I use a ficticious name on here. I went to that church when I was ten. By the time I was fifteen this was the result:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom 7:7-11

I doubt you will understand what I mean, in fact I am sure you wont!

 

[james57]

Well if you want to go on about bad religion, that's one thing.
But all religion is not bad. The Bible defines good religion so it exists. It also defines bad religion.

As far as the snake religion, nobody in any church I've been to has told me "do and you will be like God."

And this...


...again, it's time to name the actual church because I don't remember ever being told these things in ANY church. And I presume such a church could exist somewhere. But it's time to name it.

What church says God can't be trusted?

A woman in the US told me half the sex addicts in the country had at one time or another been to holiness churches

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Your the one whos been talking in a hissy fit. And you haven't been able to repudiate what I said have you. You just infer I am bearing false witness. That says a lot. Now if they reply to you, just what do you think they are going to say? sigh sigh!

Well I kind of doubt they'll say what you claimed..."trying to attain heaven by human effort"
That's false doctrine. But they could, they get to speak for themselves though, right?

After all, it you that said most church over there teach trying to attain heaven by human effort
So far you provide one that has yet to respond to your accusation and getting even that one was like pulling teeth from a child.
One church is not what you said, remember?
You said most and that means over half but apparently, it's only one and since you weren't honest about the amount, why should I just believe you're now honest about this particular church.

 

[james57]

Well I kind of doubt they'll say what you claimed..."trying to attain heaven by human effort"
That's false doctrine. But they could, they get to speak for themselves though, right?

After all, it you that said most church over there teach trying to attain heaven by human effort
So far you provide one that has yet to respond to your accusation and getting even that one was like pulling teeth from a child.
One church is not what you said, remember?
You said most and that means over half but apparently, it's only one and since you weren't honest about the amount, why should I just believe you're now honest about this particular church.

Absolutely, I have a friend who is a Christian counsellor, he spends a lot of time with people who have gone to churches and feared hell if they didn't perform well enough. The counsellor calls it spiritual abuse.

I know a couple of Christian counsellors in the states too. They try and help mainly young people who have suffered the same, it is tragic.

You know the types who make them end up like this. They preach a high standard of morality, pretend to be holier than they actually are, demand of others what they don't attain to in their own lives, and crush people with their demands, just like the Pharisees did in Jesus day

 

[Babylonisfalling]

A woman in the US told me half the sex addicts in the country had at one time or another been to holiness churches

What?!
First of all what's a "holiness" church?
Second, it sounds like your blaming a church for someone being a sex addict? Is that supposed to be your point here?
Third, I would say with almost near certainty that WAY over half the entire population of the US has at one time been to church and that those folk have all kinds of problems, ranging from sex addiction to all kinds of other things. Whether or not it's a "holiness" church....I wouldn't know.

What is your point here?
What does this have to do with the fact that religion can be good or bad?

 

[Grace777x70]

It's not about any church..it's about the lies that can and do get taught...have you never heard that God is teaching you something that's why you are sick?

..how about God punish you if you don't give Him 10% of your money?

maybe you never heard any reference to these 9 things outlined above..if so..I want to go where you go!

I do agree with you..that to blatantly say that all churches are saying these things is not showing an accurate representation ...I see the the Lord changing His people's understanding of Him growing all the time..and it's staring with myself!

Well if you want to go on about bad religion, that's one thing.
But all religion is not bad. The Bible defines good religion so it exists. It also defines bad religion.

As far as the snake religion, nobody in any church I've been to has told me "do and you will be like God."

And this...


...again, it's time to name the actual church because I don't remember ever being told these things in ANY church. And I presume such a church could exist somewhere. But it's time to name it.

What church says God can't be trusted?

 

[james57]

What?!
First of all what's a "holiness" church?
Second, it sounds like your blaming a church for someone being a sex addict? Is that supposed to be your point here?
Third, I would say with almost near certainty that WAY over half the entire population of the US has at one time been to church and that those folk have all kinds of problems, ranging from sex addiction to all kinds of other things. Whether or not it's a "holiness" church....I wouldn't know.

What is your point here?
What does this have to do with the fact that religion can be good or bad?

I'm afraid it would be beyond you to understand sadly. Otherwise I would make the effort.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I'm afraid it would be beyond you to understand sadly. Otherwise I would make the effort.

Well that was a convenient cop-out if I ever heard one

 

[NetChaplain]

Why can't I find someone who actually talks like or tells me directly that they're "getting right with God under their own power"?

Hi BIF - My intention concerning the charge is to the group of peoples who are saved but have yet to come to the understanding that what we do has no effect towards producing or retaining salvation.

I agree that there are not many (if any) among the saved that think they can effect salvation by their own works, but the Pharisees and Sadducees did, which I believe is a concept among many believers concerning the idea that works retain salvation. To be accepted by God for what we do is a natural concept of man since the beginning and is something I believe requires attention towards understanding. As it is known, works can manifest (reveal; display) righteousness, but can never produce it.

 

[james57]

Well that was a convenient cop-out if I ever heard one

Not really, I honestly do get the impression you have very limited understanding of these things, so pursuing a conversation with you would be fruitless. But never mind, I'm sure there are some things you grasp

You have a great day

 

[Grace777x70]

Whenever we are basing our life on our own self-effort..our own self-salvation..we are denying the grace of Christ.

..that self-performance based religion has the "appearance" of good..but it has no power to effect change..Jesus said.."without Me you can do nothing!"

2 Timothy 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

 

[NetChaplain]

I think what is happening is that no one actually comes out and says "..You have to get right by your own power "..everyone knows that we are saved by grace.

The real question is..how does that play out in real life? Many have mixed the covenants up and diluted the New Covenant in the mean time...I think that's what they are talking about.

Hi G - Thanks for the reply which I agree with and find to be a good observation.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Hi BIF - My intention concerning the charge is to the group of peoples who are saved but have yet to come to the understanding that what we do has no effect towards producing or retaining salvation.

I agree that there are not many (if any) among the saved that think they can effect salvation by their own works, but the Pharisees and Sadducees did, which I believe is a concept among many believers concerning the idea that works retain salvation. To be accepted by God for what we do is a natural concept of man since the beginning and is something I believe requires attention towards understanding. As it is known, works can manifest (reveal; display) righteousness, but can never produce it.

Then we've gone from this:

one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today is Pharisee-ism, which is “legalism”, e.g. man attempting to be right with God under his own power.

in the first post.
To this:

I agree that there are not many (if any) among the saved that think they can effect salvation by their own works

That's an improvement. But you have three words "among the saved" in that sentence. That phrase could imply that there are a whole lot people calling themselves Christians who are not "among the saved" because they are wrongfully thinking they're saved by their works. It's true that we aren't saved by works but I don't know anyone in any church I've been to that thinks they are. And nobody here has been able to point me to a church that teaches that. Honestly, it's like lecturing that it's wrong to steal.....we already know that.

And I assume you know of no church that actually teaches men to get right with God under their own power.

Regarding the religious authorities of Christ's time, everyone has known for a long LONG time now they were clueless. That's a really old old lesson and it's like beating a dead horse.

Regarding "works retain salvation", different churches places different importance on works but as with men getting right with God under their own power, I've not heard a church teaching that. It truth, I haven't even heard that phrase at all until you said it in this thread. It sounds like a debate which would quickly become an OSAS argument.

Regarding this"

As it is known, works can manifest (reveal; display) righteousness, but can never produce it.

I'm glad you understand that people know works can't produce salvation, but again, it seems to contradict with your first post:

one of the greatest oppositions Christianity has ever encountered since its inception until today is Pharisee-ism, which is “legalism”, e.g. man attempting to be right with God under his own power.