I have just recently started a deeper walk with God myself, and found your answer so enlightening. Like you, I feel that we have to always show grace to everyone, for it is by God's grace that we are where we are today. I have a boss at work who is Jewish, and he is by far the nicest, most kind, loving, generous, helpful person I have known. This man is so kind to everyone, at all times and he amazes me how he never fails daily to do the nicest things for others. Being Jewish, I always worry about him not being a believer in Jesus being the Savior --- which is one of the reasons I asked this question originally. To me, it just seems that some people just don't understand our Bible - and if I understand correctly, they only believe that Jesus is a prophet, right? They don't believe in the New Testament. I just wonder why so many people believe so many different things, yet its SO evident that this man has a heart of gold and "seems" to be such a good, good person that God must be so happy with him -- yet, he is Jewish, so I know that they don't believe in Jesus being our Savior. Its just so baffling to me. I just was curious about that since I know how we are all saved. Thanks for your gracious response!!
Question About Gods Chosen People
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I have just recently started a deeper walk with God myself, and found your answer so enlightening. Like you, I feel that we have to always show grace to everyone, for it is by God's grace that we are where we are today. I have a boss at work who is Jewish, and he is by far the nicest, most kind, loving, generous, helpful person I have known. This man is so kind to everyone, at all times and he amazes me how he never fails daily to do the nicest things for others. Being Jewish, I always worry about him not being a believer in Jesus being the Savior --- which is one of the reasons I asked this question originally. To me, it just seems that some people just don't understand our Bible - and if I understand correctly, they only believe that Jesus is a prophet, right? They don't believe in the New Testament. I just wonder why so many people believe so many different things, yet its SO evident that this man has a heart of gold and "seems" to be such a good, good person that God must be so happy with him -- yet, he is Jewish, so I know that they don't believe in Jesus being our Savior. Its just so baffling to me. I just was curious about that since I know how we are all saved. Thanks for your gracious response!!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
He may be saved, I know many jewish believers, in fact there are a lot in my church.
It is hard for any of us to think God could condemn anyone who is so nice and loving, but we must remember, if we have not received Christs forgiveness based on his work(not our own) then we are left to our own goodness according to the law. (none righteous no not one, for all have sinned and fall short)
All we can do is love them, like any person, jew or gentile. and pray they can see Gods provision to save us from ourselves.
what amazes me is the arrogance of Christians who think that THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO REALLY STUDY GOD'S WORD. I have written scholarly commentaries on all the Old Testament books so I am not lacking in study of them
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Since when can you decide what Paul means by Israel?. He means ISRAEL the Israel of which 7000 had not bowed the knee to Baal (Rom 11.1-9). THAT WAS NORTHERN ISRAEL. What He meant was ALL ISRAEL. You should study your Old Testament!!!
The prophets say nothing of the kind. They say ONLY A REMNANT WILL BE SAVED !!!!!!! Read the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 44 is not about any millennium temple, which is a figment of the imagination. Ezekiel's Temple was observed by him as present in his own day. It was God's heavenly Temple sent down to show that God was still with His people.
that happened after the Exile
The verses do not mention Christ. They were fulfilled after the Exile when the Zadokites became the accepted priests.
There will be no future thousand year reign. That is a fallacy. We are enjoying Christ's 'thousand year (long unidentified period of time) reign NOW
They are certainly NOT IN THE NEW. Neither Christ, nor Paul, nor Peter knew of such a reign. What is found in the Old Testament was mainly fulfilled in the first coming of Christ.
Here we go again. Only you know about such things. Only you study the Old Testament. What ARROGANCE.
I will agree that YOUR Biblical illiteracy is showing through. Just recognise that some of us have been studying the Old Testament before you were born.
If you read the Jewish OT, you will quickly see that it is a veritable clinic on how NOT to worship God.
Thousands upon thousands of verses, from prophet after prophet, proclaim just how the Jews screwed-up time and again, and fell away from proper worship.
If Jews truly understood the scriptures that they were entrusted with, then they would now be called Christians.
Modern day Jews carry the heavy burden of knowingly rejecting God, when He came to them...of which, they will pay for when they are judged at the Second Death.
L
Laodicea
Guest
Matthew 21:43 KJV
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
According to this verse the kingdom was taken from Israel, meaning they are no longer God's Chosen people. It was given to another.
1 Peter 2:9 KJV
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
They will fall by the sword and will be taken away to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled by the gentiles UNTIL the times of the gentiles are fulfilled luke 21:24
In perfect alignment with what Moses and the OT prophets wrote
Romans 11:28-29 KJVS
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Since you began this with your arrogance, I shall settle it using your own arrogance. Writing commentaries doesn't mean one isn't following a set of traditions developed by men. That's exactly what the scribes and Pharisees were guilty of, creating their own traditions outside of God's Word.
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It's not me deciding the obvious portion of Israel that have rejected Christ Jesus as Messiah. Those who know their OT history know only a remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. It was the Jews who rejected Christ Jesus and agreed to have Him crucified. The majority of Israel was not there, as God has already scattered the majority of Israel out of the land by then (2 Kings 17).
Amos 9:9
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV
Rom 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Of course that will be dependent upon their confessing Christ Jesus as their Savior at His return. And that will be easy once that blindness God put upon them is removed then. So who can go against God's and Apostle Paul's own words there but a hater and deceiver of God's people?
Ezekiel 40 through 47 is DEFINITELY about the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus with His elect, the timing of the "thousand years" of Revelation 20. That "house" mentioned there is the temple of Ezekiel that will exist during that time. It is the "house" which Jesus mentioned in John 14 about the "many mansions" promised to His elect. Specific locations like En-gedi in the middle east are mentioned where God's River will flow which has the tree of life on either side of the River. The dimensions given for Ezekiel's temple reveal it has NEVER... been built to this day.
Since you CLAIM to be studied in the OT Books, while trying to deceive others about that establishing on earth per Ezekiel 40 through 47, it reveals you are a DECEIVER of God's people away from His written Word.
The timing of Ezekiel 40 thru 48 is NOT about the time of Judah's return after the 70 years Babylon captivity by the king of Babylon. God's River and the tree of life has never as of yet been established there as written in Ezek.47. And it's certainly not about a time thereafter either, since the Romans destroyed the 2nd temple in 70 A.D.
Once again Ezek.47 with the manifesting of God's River in the middle east with the tree of life SETS the timing of those Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters.
Here is what you are trying to hide from God's people:
Ezek 47:5-12
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV
There WILL be a thousand years Millennial reign by Christ Jesus and His elect, as written in Rev.20 and per those details given in Ezekiel 40 forward. The question is will you be a part of it, since you deny it in favor of your NWO friends who seek to establish a fake kingdom to Lucifer today on earth.
It will be a good thing when Jesus returns and casts out forever the Canaanites that crept into God's House who try to hide these things from His people:
Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV
You clearly do not understand God's ways, nor His Power to save.
If God Himself puts blindness upon someone so that they reject Jesus out of ignorance, how can He justly cast them into the lake of fire? We worship a Just God Who is no respecter of persons. Only with that blindness removed, with the soul in full accountability to chose Him and His Son or not, can that judgment be made.
You will be amazed when you see that blindness removed from the deceived of Israel, and they then accept Christ Jesus as Messiah at His coming.
And that was OT prophecy via a mystery, something that many today still refuse to see how God fulfilled it through the ten lost tribes of Israel along with remnants of Judah scattered to the same areas.
Per Genesis 35, God promised that He would make of Jacob "a nation" and "a company of nations". Israel was the new name the Angel of The Lord gave to Jacob, which is the Salvation name, since it means those who overcome with God's help. So that means Israelite nations. Yet history has only known of one nation called Israel. So how did God fulfill that?
Per Genesis 48, God through Jacob said that Ephraim, the younger son of Joseph, would become "a multitude of nations", and that Joseph's elder son Manasseh also would become "great". Per 1 Kings 11 forward, God made one of the tribe of Ephraim king over the northern ten tribes of Israel. Ephraim became the head tribe over the rest of the ten tribes of Israel.
God then scattered the ten tribes under Ephraim to the lands of the Medes, never to return. Per translations in the Assyrian tablets and the Jehu steele, leaders of the ten tribes became known under new names by the Assyrians. Professor Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan, a scholar of oriental languages, translated one of those names to show its link to the Cimmerians. The origin of the Cimmerian peoples from the east has been a great mystery to those in the field of anthropology.
The Cimmerian tribes crossed through the Caucasus Mountains and around the Black Sea from the east into Europe. These became the majority of peoples that migrated into early Europe and founded the western nations. Just so happens, that after the Passion of Christ, these were the majority of peoples where The Gospel was sent to after Christ's rejection in Jerusalem. And these western nations became the western Christian nations of history, and thus the "multitude of nations" that Jacob's seed was promised to become. And many believing Gentiles in those lands became graffed in with them in The Gospel. For the majority, this history is still doubtful, for it is not yet time for God to reveal it to all the world, but He will as He showed through His prophets when He gathers them at Christ's second coming.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
people tell us they want us to stick to the bible. yet here is Paul by inspiration of God saying Israel, who is at the time our enemy, because they are an enemy of the gospel. is also still the elect. chosen by God. Because God does not go back on his words. He keeps them forever.
Israel is not elect or chosen in regard to personal salvation.
Israel is elect among the nations as the nation through which salvation is come to the world.
Israel is chosen among the nations to be the nation through which God is revealing His word.
Misuse of the terms chosen and elect are the root of the confusion in these discussions.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Israel is elect among the nations as the nation through which salvation is come to the world.
Israel is chosen among the nations to be the nation through which God is revealing His word.
Misuse of the terms chosen and elect are the root of the confusion in these discussions.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That's not what that verse says. It says the Jews are our enemies but the elect are beloved. A Christ hating Jew is not elect. The verse is talking about Jews like Paul... saved Jews.
L
Laodicea
Guest
Does that mean they are beloved and others are not? Of course God loves them and wants them saved but, they are not His chosen according to the Bible.
Romans 11:23 KJV
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
The Jews could not believe that someone like Jesus could be the Messiah,seeing He was a humble man,and did not put down Roman authority.Even the disciples asked if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom back to Israel,but Jesus said the Father will do it in due time,but go preach the Gospel,and be concerned with that.
Some did not believe for fear of the Romans.
Some did not believe because He grew up with a mother and father,and brothers,and sisters,like an ordinary person.
Some were afraid of the religious leaders,that they would be put out of the synagogue,and lose their position.
But although the Jews as a nation did not accept Jesus,God always has a remnant of Jews that are in the truth.
But Israel as a nation must come to the truth that Jesus is the Messiah,or there is salvation for nobody,because God cannot continue on with His plan until that happens,which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.
In Daniel 9,God gave the Jews 70 weeks,or 490 years,to get right with God,and acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah,which 69 weeks has passed.The last week will be the time that God will bring Israel to the truth,and cause all who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.
Then God can continue on with His plan to put the world down,rule the world with the saints over one sixth of the world that fought against Israel,and get to the New Jerusalem.
Without Israel as a nation coming to the truth,nobody is going anywhere.
Some did not believe for fear of the Romans.
Some did not believe because He grew up with a mother and father,and brothers,and sisters,like an ordinary person.
Some were afraid of the religious leaders,that they would be put out of the synagogue,and lose their position.
But although the Jews as a nation did not accept Jesus,God always has a remnant of Jews that are in the truth.
But Israel as a nation must come to the truth that Jesus is the Messiah,or there is salvation for nobody,because God cannot continue on with His plan until that happens,which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.
In Daniel 9,God gave the Jews 70 weeks,or 490 years,to get right with God,and acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah,which 69 weeks has passed.The last week will be the time that God will bring Israel to the truth,and cause all who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.
Then God can continue on with His plan to put the world down,rule the world with the saints over one sixth of the world that fought against Israel,and get to the New Jerusalem.
Without Israel as a nation coming to the truth,nobody is going anywhere.
about Israel being saved -- Romans 11, of course, and also look at Zechariah 12 - 14
On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
(Zechariah 13:1)
to cleanse them from sin and impurity.
(Zechariah 13:1)
the Lord will not completely forsake His people.
as to why today as a nation, Israel rejects Him - it is also fulfilling what He said through His prophets - that they should be blinded and made deaf (Isaiah 6) until the fullness of the gentiles has been brought in (Romans 11:25), so that through the gentiles, they will receive mercy - and without that they rejected Him, His mercy would not have gone out to the gentiles.
this is the love of God played out through time with Israel like a courtship between a man and a woman - He found her, and made her as His wife, but she spurned Him, and sought a divorce (Jeremiah 3) - so He showed His love to another, us gentiles, and she will turn in jealousy (Deuteronomy 32:21, Romans 10:19) and He will take her back again, and all who have come to Christ, to Him through Christ, will be one, and will be with Him as one.
and you are Jewish? that is wonderful!!
i wish every Jew would turn, and hear, and believe! ♥
eternally-gratefull is spot on. It's you that misinterpret what Paul said there in Rom.11 about the part of unbelieving Israel that was blinded by God so The Gospel could go also to the Gentiles.
Well, yes they are... His chosen, which is why Paul said about them that God's gifts of calling are without repentance, meaning He won't take them back.
When Paul begins speaking in the Rom.11:25 verse, he is talking about the portion of Israel that God blinded so The Gospel could also go to the Gentiles. That is also who he was speaking about concerning God's gifts of election won't be taken back from them because of their rejecting Christ by that blindness He put upon those:
Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Paul is NOT changing the subject to another group in that last phrase of Rom.11:28. He is still talking about those whom God put blindness upon.
More specifically, when Christ's disciples asked Him in Matt.13 why He spoke to the multitudes in parables, He brought up this matter of those in Judea having been blinded, while the eyes and ears of His disciples had been opened:
Matt 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"
11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."
KJV
Apostle Paul also showed this in Rom.11 quoting from OT Scripture about it...
Rom 11:8
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.KJV
That prophecy came from here:
Isa 29:9-14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
KJV
Same subject here by Paul:
2 Cor 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
KJV
Back in the previous Isaiah 28 chapter, God revealed another thing that caused their stumbling, with His Word becoming a stumbling and rock of offense to them. God made His Holy Writ to be understood line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little, so that they would stumble, because they mocked that method:
Isa 28:13-14
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
KJV
For those in Christ Jesus who go back into the OT and thoroughly study, it becomes obvious that prophecy of our Lord Jesus' coming as The Savior has always been there, even the details of His crucifixion given through David as a prophet which should have been easy for the Jews to recognize when it happened a thousand years later (Ps.22).
Yet because their leaders and priests were blinded to that, and because of false ones that crept into their stay which they allowed, God's Word instead became a stumbling block to the majority of them. Only a remnant which God gave to understand which did not go astray from Him knew about these things in His OT Word, and looked for Christ's coming. To this day, the teachers of orthodox Jews hide many of these things about Christ Jesus prophesied from the OT Books from their people (this I understood from Jewish witnesses that had come to believe on Jesus).