Truth

[Nuhen]

Got to disagree with you on this one. Our God is a God of justice. He cannot deny His own character or He would cease to be God. His justice demanded that a sacrifice be made for sin. God did not cause Jesus to be tortured and humiliated on the cross. WE did. If God allowed His laws and statutes to be violated, without just recompense, then how would He be a just God?

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense to me. You start by saying He demanded a sacrifice for sin, and then you say He did not cause Yeshua to be tortured and humiliated on the cross (which He did, actually).

I'm not trying to be picky, I'm just making sure we don't misunderstand each other. Would you mind explaining, please?

 

[VW]

While you're right, you're also wrong. We all killed Yeshua because of our sin, every person who has ever lived and will ever live, but the Romans and the Jewish leaders of the time definitely tortured him, put him on the cross, and ultimately killed him.

They put Him on the cross, but even then, He gave up His life, on His own. He did not die because of the crucifixion.

 

[Nuhen]

They put Him on the cross, but even then, He gave up His life, on His own. He did not die because of the crucifixion.

Er...yes he did. It's not like he hopped up on the cross and pretended to die until he could be killed by something else. He died because he was crucified. That's pretty much the whole point. They didn't put him on the cross to see if he'd make a nice little hood ornament.

 

[VW]

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense to me. You start by saying He demanded a sacrifice for sin, and then you say He did not cause Yeshua to be tortured and humiliated on the cross (which He did, actually).

I'm not trying to be picky, I'm just making sure we don't misunderstand each other. Would you mind explaining, please?

I am the good shepherd, and I know know My own, and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I shall bring them also, and they shall hear My voice, and they shall become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I amy take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again, This commandment I have from My Father.

How does Christ know us? How do we know Him? I mean, even as He knows the Father and the Father knows Him? By the cross. It, the cross, is an ongoing thing with every sheep who belongs to Jesus. We are perfected by His sufferings, with Him, and in Him. If we are His, then the cross is working in us, the cross of Jesus Christ, to perfect us in Him. The cross is eternal, because it has existed since before the foundations of the world were laid. When I am confronted with my sin, it is on the cross that it must go, and He is there to pay the price. And I know that I am responsible for His suffering. This is the eternal truth of the cross, that it is an act of the Father's love, and the Son's love, and we suffer with Him, if we are in Him. I know that the Father suffered also with the Son, and if I do not have the proper understanding of His payment, His cost, His suffering, then I am not on good footing with the Father.

Our ruin was so awful, so disastrous, so horrible, that the cost of our redemption was the most unimaginable thing in the heavenly kingdom. The Son gave up His life for us. He laid it down for us, and took upon Himself what we deserved, and more. The first judgment was death. The last judgment is everlasting fire. Why? Because those who denied Jesus on the cross deserve that, and this is the Father's judgment.

 

[Nuhen]

Much appreciated, VW, but I'd prefer it if Dave explained what he was saying rather than you.

 

[VW]

Much appreciated, VW, but I'd prefer it if Dave explained what he was saying rather than you.

I would answer this, but i don't think so.

I am sorry that you see Jesus in the way that you do.

It is disturbing.

 

[Nuhen]

I would answer this, but i don't think so.

I am sorry that you see Jesus in the way that you do.

It is disturbing.

Dude, seriously? Now you're judging me for preferring to hear someone explain their own words?

Get off your high horse, man.

 

[VW]

Er...yes he did. It's not like he hopped up on the cross and pretended to die until he could be killed by something else. He died because he was crucified. That's pretty much the whole point. They didn't put him on the cross to see if he'd make a nice little hood ornament.

Read John 19:30. Your irreverence is stunning to me.

 

[Nuhen]

Read John 19:30. Your irreverence is stunning to me.

I've read that verse many times. All it means is that Yeshua allowed himself to die. It happens with everyone. People dying in the hospital who sometimes wait to see certain loved ones before letting themselves slip.

Your interpretation is basically equivalent to Yeshua committing suicide.

 

[VW]

I've read that verse many times. All it means is that Yeshua allowed himself to die. It happens with everyone. People dying in the hospital who sometimes wait to see certain loved ones before letting themselves slip.

Your interpretation is basically equivalent to Yeshua committing suicide.

Why do you not hear His words? He gave up His spirit. Greater love has no man than he give up his life for another. And you call this suicide?

"Father, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last.

And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God."

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Four accounts, all saying that He gave up His spirit. That he breathed His last. The other two men who were crucified that day, they still lived, and had their legs broken, so that they would die sooner. The Romans were stunned that Jesus was dead already, and could not understand it. This is why the spear was thrust into His side, to make sure He was dead. But this was so prophecy would be fulfilled.

Jesus gave up His life for you, in His great love for you. This is the message of the cross. Not some legal fulfillment, (although His death did meet some legalities,) but simple love. Some say that it is a substitution, His death for ours, but in truth, we were already dead, and unless we are joined with Him in His death and resurrection, we are not alive, and never truly were. And even worse, we were His enemies when He gave Himself for us. Just as bad or worse than those priest who thought they were putting Him on the cross.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Actually, Yeshua didn't want to die. He went into the Garden and prayed for G-d to take the cup of his torment and death from his hands, but was in ultimate submission to the will of G-d and said, "Not my will, but Yours be done."

He died because it was the will of G-d his Father that he die as the sacrifice for sins, and it was his ultimate desire to do the will of his Father.

well the Bible doesn't actually say why Jesus prayed Father let this cup pass from me, but I tend to believe that the cup was not death but that the Holy One of God, the unspotted lamb of God was about to take on the sins of the world, Him being God He could not even look at sin and The cup was the sins of the world that was about to be put on Him. But through obedience to the Father, he said Thy will be done, not mine. so He willingly layed His life down, so it couldn't Be that He didn't want to die.

 

[VW]

well the Bible doesn't actually say why Jesus prayed Father let this cup pass from me, but I tend to believe that the cup was not death but that the Holy One of God, the unspotted lamb of God was about to take on the sins of the world, Him being God He could not even look at sin and The cup was the sins of the world that was about to be put on Him. But through obedience to the Father, he said Thy will be done, not mine.

And as He took upon Himself our sins, the sins of the world, He must suffer separation from the Father until the price be paid. And the Father had to suffer the separation from His Son, and in truth God paid a price for us which we barely understand now, and will see in full when we see Him.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Something Ive wondered about from time to time about Jesus being crucified for us.
Was it more important for God Our Father to have the sacrifice of Jesus so that we are saved.
Or, was it more about us having to have Jesus sacrificed in order for us to believe that we are saved?
Just a thought.
Im just very greatful that God Our Father sent Our Lord Jesus to be sacrificed for our salvation.
God bless, pickles

no it would have to be the first :

[QUOTE] it more important for God Our Father to have the sacrifice of Jesus so that we are saved.[/QUOTE]

Heb 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is NO REMISSION.

 

[Thaddaeus]

That's a good thought, Pickles. God is all powerful and he could have just said, hey, you guys are saved, but I doubt any of us would believe it. Instead He said, LOOK HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU! I will SACRIFICE my SON, my ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, for you, for all of you, don't you believe me now???? I think seeing Jesus tortured, humilitated, shamed, and killed stuck in the minds of so many people as physical proof of God's love for us and really helped seat the idea that they are saved deep in their hearts.

No He could not have said that for He would had been changing the rules in the middle of the game, It has always been said that there is life in the Blood, and to cover sin there had to be a sacrifice, But the power of the Blood From Jesus was far greater than any sacrifice ever, so not only was it to cover sin but to take it away also. "go and sin no more" this is painted in the adam and eve god made Them a covering of skins, something died that the coats of skins was provided, and this was before the law!

 

[Thaddaeus]

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense to me. You start by saying He demanded a sacrifice for sin, and then you say He did not cause Yeshua to be tortured and humiliated on the cross (which He did, actually).

I'm not trying to be picky, I'm just making sure we don't misunderstand each other. Would you mind explaining, please?

how about if we word what you said a little different, then maybe you two could come a little closer in agreement , how about instead that God caused Yeshua to be tortured , let's say that He allowed Yeshua to be tortured.. not trying to be picky with words here , but God didn't cause Job to go through what he went hrough But allowed satan to do it,

 

[Thaddaeus]

Er...yes he did. It's not like he hopped up on the cross and pretended to die until he could be killed by something else. He died because he was crucified. That's pretty much the whole point. They didn't put him on the cross to see if he'd make a nice little hood ornament.

but the sin of the world yours and mine and everybody elses in here are what held him on the cross, remember that at any time he could have called and thousand of angel would had came. His love for good and His hatred for evil was a driving force also,

 

[VW]

The forgiveness of sins is not salvation. Why? Jesus died for the sins of the world. Jesus died to sin, for all and for all time. But it is obvious that not everyone is saved. I mean, we do know this, that not everyone will receive life from above.

Salvation is by grace, and that of faith. Grace is drawing near to God, but how can we draw near unless we believe? And we could not truly believe because we were dead in our sins. Sin cannot be in God's presence. He will not look on sin. He will not tolerate sin. But we were dead in our sins. Jesus died to death for us also. For us who are saved, or, who are being saved, we are joined with Him in His death for us, to be raised to newness of life in His resurrection. And this resurrection is to God, to have fellowship with God, to draw near to Him in Christ Jesus. This is salvation.

 

[Thaddaeus]

And as He took upon Himself our sins, the sins of the world, He must suffer separation from the Father until the price be paid. And the Father had to suffer the separation from His Son, and in truth God paid a price for us which we barely understand now, and will see in full when we see Him.

*** Amen ***

 

[VW]

And just so we know what we have in His loving sacrifice for us on the cross, He sent His Spirit to give us this new life, this life from above, this seed from the Father, so that we would be children of God. And this seed, this new life, it is perfect, pure, holy, without sin, because it is born of God. This is what we have from the Father through the sacrifice, the willing sacrifice of love that Jesus gave for us. Who is able to endure these things with a cold heart? If the Spirit lives in us, we will be moved every time we look to the cross, by His love for us and in us.

 

[MahogonySnail]

God really did send Jesus to die knowing full well what would happen. I believe even if the Jews and Romans did not touch Him God would have found a way to kill Him.