Hyper grace

[eternally-gratefull]

But what is parental love? Is it to forgive again and again and again? Or is it to set rules in place so the kid doesn't hurt themselves and possibly die or rules that help the kid lead a healthy and productive life? When the kid breaks the rules of course there is no condemnation but is the parent going to just let it slide. I assume the parent will expect the kid not to do it again...and again and again and again. And if the kid needs help avoiding a certian behavior the parent helps them. But they are not going to allow the kid to keep doing the same thing over and over and over.

A child who trusts his parents does not need rules. They need guidance. It is the child who wants to have things his way who needs rules. To prove to them they are in error (this is where the law comes in)

How one disciplines a child is not the question. the question is, Is the discipline helpful.. God disciplines those who are his kids.

Also are you saying that Gods love keeps us from sinning?

I believe Gods love makes us not want to sin, to change our heart attitude toward sin. A dictator will get people to obey our of fear. A loving father has people follow them out of trust.

How can you not have faith in someone who never lets you down, even though you continually let them down?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But even under grace God gives us a choice to listen or to not listen. What happens when we choose to not listen?

We suffer the consequences.. plus (if we are true children of God) We are chastened.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So I ask again, why do so many Christians continue to do wrong? Do you need to turn from your sin to be saved?

Can you be perfect?

If you can, then there is no question.

If you can not. Then have you truly turned from you sin? Or are you just deceiving yourself that your a righteous person now.

 

[ladylynn]

If you believe that chapter 7 pertains to Paul's pre-Christian life and chapter 8 to his Christian life (as you have indicated to me that you do) then you have been misled by cardinal Langton's decision that was influenced by his theological view.

Ohhhh, So it's cardinal Langton's decision that is causing all this confusion??!! (who is cardinal Langton)
never heard of the man.

 

[ladylynn]

If you believe that chapter 7 pertains to Paul's pre-Christian life and chapter 8 to his Christian life (as you have indicated to me that you do) then you have been misled by cardinal Langton's decision that was influenced by his theological view.

That cardinal Langton guy was waaaaaay off in his theology.

 

[james57]

Ohhhh, So it's cardinal Langton's decision that is causing all this confusion??!! (who is cardinal Langton)
never heard of the man.

I think you may be blessed never to have heard of him!

 

[ladylynn]

But even under grace God gives us a choice to listen or to not listen. What happens when we choose to not listen?

Why anticipate you will 'want' to sin under grace? As we learn to walk in Christ by grace, the Bible says that 'grace will teach us' how to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts.,how to live soberly,righteously and godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.

What we should be anticipating and believing (and we will when we understand about there being no condemnation now that we are IN Christ) is the Bible when it says what we will learn to do under grace when we know who we are in Christ..sons and daughter who want to follow Him., not what we could or might do in-spite of grace. It seems people go about this thing all wrong.

If you were given unconditional love and acceptance and were adopted into the best family and given great and precious promises., why would you want to sin? But when we do as we are learning to put off the old ways of our flesh like when we 'used to get' extremely angry first off when someone insulted us... we instead are admonished by the HolySpirit to love them as Christ is demonstrating His love for us each day., and we are "constrained by the love of God" to do what is good and right and just. We want to please God now that we are sons with a NEW nature so it's in our DNA now.

And so when we do miss the mark and for instance when our habit of being angry comes into play, we have an Advocate with the Father now., Jesus Christ who has actively already forgiven all our sins and paid for each one of them on the cross. Who will show us how to let anger go and walk in newness of life as sons of God., not like our former unsaved selves when we didn't know any other way.

For sure this takes time but we are willing students of the Bible and of the One who loved us so much. Our relationship went from enemies of the cross to sons of the Father. We are learning daily to walk as sons and He gives us the 'grace' to do that.

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia
Do you believe Paul is speaking solely of his life as a Pharisee in rom 7:7-11 or of the whole of his christian life

I appreciate you asking me!

No. He was speaking of his flesh, and the battle inherent in it, which we all have to deal with as Christians.

Romans 8:6-8
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.[SUP]8 [/SUP]That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.


Romans 8:12-14
Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ohhhh, So it's cardinal Langton's decision that is causing all this confusion??!! (who is cardinal Langton)
never heard of the man.

He's the Roman Catholic cardinal who in 1205 AD created the chapter/verse arrangement in our bibles. The original manuscripts had none of that.

 

[james57]

I appreciate you asking me!

No. He was speaking of his flesh, and the battle inherent in it, which we all have to deal with as Christians.

Romans 8:6-8
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.[SUP]8 [/SUP]That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.


Romans 8:12-14
Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
.

Was Paul in your view speaking of his flesh when he was a Pharisee, a Christian, or both in rom7:7-11?

Just seeking clarification as you didn't say

 

[Euphemia]

Was Paul in your view speaking of his flesh when he was a Pharisee, a Christian, or both in rom7:7-11?

Just seeking clarification as you didn't say

Paul was talking about the flesh always warring with one's born again spirit. As a Pharisee, he had no experience with the new birth.

 

[james57]

Paul was talking about the flesh always warring with one's born again spirit. As a Pharisee, he had no experience with the new birth.

So could you please specify so I make no mistake in understanding you.
In romans 7:7-11 is Paul speaking of the flesh as a pharisee only, as a Pharisee and a christian, or solely as a christian.

Please clarify that
Thank you

I think you are saying the verses solely relate to Paul the christian, just want to be sure

 

[james57]

Ohhhh, So it's cardinal Langton's decision that is causing all this confusion??!! (who is cardinal Langton)
never heard of the man.

Blaming a roman catholic cardinal seems good to me!

 

[james57]

Paul was talking about the flesh always warring with one's born again spirit. As a Pharisee, he had no experience with the new birth.

You never did explain on the other thread why you believed Paul was an overcomer in rom7:7-11

Could you explain here

Thank you

 

[james57]

Paul was talking about the flesh always warring with one's born again spirit. As a Pharisee, he had no experience with the new birth.

Well as you have not clarified your position I will just take it that as you believe Paul had a born again spirit in rom 7:7-11 he is speaking solely as a christian in those verses.

That would mean of course Paul the Pharisee didn't know what lust was, only Paul the christian did

The ten commandments only came to Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

Sin through the law aroused all manner of concupiscence in Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

And sin through the law condemned/slew Paul the christian not Paul the Pharisee

They are interesting ideas, which at least four others appear to agree with you on

 

[PeterJens]

Here is a great teaching on "Why do we still sin"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA

The fundamental failure in this description is was are born sinners. This is clearly wrong. You are only a sinner when you sin.

We are born with the inclination to sin.

Now the difference maybe subtle but it has to do with motivation, and choice. If we are born sinners no matter what we do, then it is not our fault. We are not guilty, we had no choice.

Now the concept of choice is fundamental to the gospel, because it links back to the idea of free will, or even the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge only can be useful if you can put it into action.

If we have a new heart, then we now have motivation in Jesus to walk righteously. It is not inevitable but it is possible.

If you hold you are righteous because you are born again, then again it is not a choice, it is not free will.

Now to stop confusion, think about crossing a road as a blind person or one who can see.
The blind will be killed, those who see can choose when it is safe to cross. So sight makes the choice obvious. It may appear they have no choice, ie they walk righteously by themselves, but it is a product of sight.

So in Jesus righteousness becomes obvious.

But if you build your models on theory and not real life you end up with weird unreal theology that does not work, which is where hyper grace goes wrong.

Now those who say why do christians continue to sin, the answer is, they have not yet learned to apply their sight. It comes through obedience, through seeing consequences, what gives birth to what.

 

[Grace777x70]

That is a whole lot of philosophy.... either we are sinners ( unbeliever) or saints ( believer ) now because of our new birth. We are born of God. we "were" sinners but now we are "different" because of Jesus!..He changes stuff.....

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

The fundamental failure in this description is was are born sinners. This is clearly wrong. You are only a sinner when you sin.

We are born with the inclination to sin.

Now the difference maybe subtle but it has to do with motivation, and choice. If we are born sinners no matter what we do, then it is not our fault. We are not guilty, we had no choice.

Now the concept of choice is fundamental to the gospel, because it links back to the idea of free will, or even the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge only can be useful if you can put it into action.

If we have a new heart, then we now have motivation in Jesus to walk righteously. It is not inevitable but it is possible.

If you hold you are righteous because you are born again, then again it is not a choice, it is not free will.

Now to stop confusion, think about crossing a road as a blind person or one who can see.
The blind will be killed, those who see can choose when it is safe to cross. So sight makes the choice obvious. It may appear they have no choice, ie they walk righteously by themselves, but it is a product of sight.

So in Jesus righteousness becomes obvious.

But if you build your models on theory and not real life you end up with weird unreal theology that does not work, which is where hyper grace goes wrong.

Now those who say why do christians continue to sin, the answer is, they have not yet learned to apply their sight. It comes through obedience, through seeing consequences, what gives birth to what.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well as you have not clarified your position I will just take it that as you believe Paul had a born again spirit in rom 7:7-11 he is speaking solely as a christian in those verses.

That would mean of course Paul the Pharisee didn't know what lust was, only Paul the christian did

The ten commandments only came to Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

Sin through the law aroused all manner of concupiscence in Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

And sin through the law condemned/slew Paul the christian not Paul the Pharisee

They are interesting ideas, which at least four others appear to agree with you on

if you understood the word, and what it says about pharisees, you would understand that all you just aid was true.

But for some reason, you want to think a pharisee who probably had a hand in killing Christ, we know had a hand in killing Christians, knew he was a sinner, and was condemned by the law (rolls eyes)

Of course you have me on ignore.. but thats ok. The truth is still there for everyone to see.. I know you do not like to be confronted. oh well.. Thats your loss

 

[james57]

That is a whole lot of philosophy.... either we are sinners ( unbeliever) or saints ( believer ) .

Christians are sinners AND saints!

 

[Grace777x70]

Christians are saints that sometimes sin.

It's all in the identity. We as Christians only have one identity. We have a new nature .a new man..the inner man...born of God..we are a new creation in Christ... created in righteousness and holiness

Ephesians 4:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


God gives us promises through the finished work of Jesus...believe them and receive from Him.

2 Peter 1:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Christians are sinners AND saints!