The Immaculate Conception Error

[Cassian]

willfollowsGod,

Cassian, the only thing that makes Jesus different from us is he was not born with a fallen nature and he did not sin.

Only half right. You have created an entity whether He was God but also had somekind of human nature, that cannot save us. Here is an analogy. You have two persons in a hospital. You are treating one with the asumption that the second will also get well, just because you are treating the other.
If Christ does not have our exact, precise nature He cannot raise that nature to life. Whatever nature you are trying to create is the one that will be raised to life. Unfortunately there are no humans that had the nature you are trying to describe.

He was brought into the world through the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive Him and not through sinful man. Jesus got tired, he sweated when he worked as a carpenter until 30, he went to a lonely place to re-energize after being around people, etc. Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Your idea of who he is is not biblical and is not supported by the Bible. Read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and for the amount of time you read it throw your presuppositions out the window. We have lovingly throughout this thread pointed out that you are wrong, using the Bible to support our arguments. You have used the Bible incorrectly and have put human reasoning into who Jesus is. Please stop it and ask God to reveal this important truth to you. Jesus can relate to us because he was tempted but did not have a sinful nature and did not sin, we can relate to him as mentioned in Hebrews. When Jesus was tempted he used Scripture against Satan, so when we are tempted we can use that ammunition against the adversary. Jesus was tempted by hunger but he did not give into Satan's bait. Just because Jesus was not born with a sinful nature and could not sin, does not mean he could not be tempted and it also does not mean that we cannot relate to him. When Jesus came to Earth he did not come as a superhuman but as a human. God bless.

You are right that it is possible that the creature you created could get tired, be tempted, but He would not be able to save us. You have created a humanity that is not like either Adam's nor ours which is worthless for us. Christ was consubstantial with us. His humanity was the very same essence.
It is very hard to get rid of false theories when you assume they were actually taught in scripture. But what I have explained is the historical, two millennial understanding of the Incarnation. It has been clarified through three Councils and preserved by the Holy Spirit as it was given in the beginning to the Apostles. It is NOT my theory or my idea in the least. I have no preseuppositions. It is Biblical fact and understanding. It also condemns the theory of Original Sin as developed by Augustine. It is throughly scriptural as it was believed from the beginning.

I don't think you even understand the importance of why Christ needed to have our human nature exactly like ours with no exceptions.

 

[Cassian]

willfollowsGod,

The idea of immaculate conception is not based on a falacy. Original sin was passed on that is shown in the Bible. There are verses that says for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. You are taking Ezekiel 18:4 out of context and you are talking Ezekiel 18:20 out of context. If there is no original sin, then why did Jesus come to Earth?

What is out of context here is the text you are using from Rom 6:23 is not even relevant to the discussion. That deals with God's relationship with man as a result of Christ's salvation of the world from death and sin. In other words, Christ corrected the fall, gave life to all men and made it possible for man and God to renew the relationship lost because of the fall.

If there is no original sin, then why did Jesus come to Earth?

To correct the fall, which was the condemnation of Adam's sin, namely death. Christ defeated death and by so doing gave life to all men again. Now man is actually responsible for his sin because it can now condemn each of us based on the choice of each.

No man is condemned through Adam any longer. God is giving to every human being the same free chioce that Adam had. God thought it quite unjust that all men be condemned to death for the one act of sin of one man. Which is why He overlooked our transgressions and out of love for mankind saved us from that condemnation of death and the resultant sinning which is caused by our fallen mortal nature.

If there is no original sin, why did he die on the cross?

You questions show that you do not understand why Christ came and actually what constitutes the fall. You have been so misled by the Augustinian theory of Original Sin for 500 years that most actually assume it is actually scriptural.

How can you save people from sins, if they do not have original sin.

because we all sin on our own. We are responsible for our sins, not the sin of Adam.

Mary was not born without sin,

Not just Mary, but every human being is born without sin Our problem is that we are born with a mortal nature and it is our mortal nature that causes us to sin. Rom 5:21, I Cor 15:56. Augustine had it completely backwards.

I was not born without sin, explain why there is such a thing as murder, rape, incest, lust, premarital sex, etc. All these sins rebel against God. If we were not born in sin, then we would not be able to murder, rape, commit incest, lust, do premarital sex, covet, etc as human beings. The Bible speaks against you and you are wrong. Why in the Old Testament were people commanded to sacrifice an animal on the altar to God for their sins every day until the New Covenant began, as mentioned in Hebrews? Read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and stop taking verses out of context when that only causes confusion. There is no fallacy. When it talking about the iniquity, they are talking about sin in general and not original sin. Read the whole chapter. Sin in general we are all accountable for it, in fact we are going to have give an account to God and since we have Jesus we will pass with flying colors because we have accepted his sacrifice on the cross for our sins and God has imputed his righteousness to us. God bless.

You are quite confused by the theory of Original Sin. We do not have Adam's sin or guilt. However we do have the nature, namely a mortal nature which was due to the condemnation of that one sin of Adam.

 

[RememberTheSabbathDay]

I have made a little mention of infants in post #171. Will elaborate later.
And hold your horses! Don't be so quick to condemn.
Please give me scriptural proof that babies are born with Original Sin. I hope you will do better than giving me a few OT verses which are poetic and figurative in nature.
Peace!

Was Lucifer created to sin? God says iniquity was found in him. Its called the mystery of iniquity. So children are not born to sin but are born in iniquity with is a nature of sin because the sinful nature is part of humanity even though all of humanity did not commit the original sin of Adam and Eve. But God said that all have sinned and come short of His glory and this includes infants. No the child has not committed a sin but has a sinful nature bent on sin. What child that you know is not naturally selfish unless taught differently. Children are a blank slate. Its God's word that He writes on our hearts that we may not sin against Him...May not..but we have a choice.

 

[BradC]

willfollowsGod,

What is out of context here is the text you are using from Rom 6:23 is not even relevant to the discussion. That deals with God's relationship with man as a result of Christ's salvation of the world from death and sin. In other words, Christ corrected the fall, gave life to all men and made it possible for man and God to renew the relationship lost because of the fall.

To correct the fall, which was the condemnation of Adam's sin, namely death. Christ defeated death and by so doing gave life to all men again. Now man is actually responsible for his sin because it can now condemn each of us based on the choice of each.

No man is condemned through Adam any longer. God is giving to every human being the same free chioce that Adam had. God thought it quite unjust that all men be condemned to death for the one act of sin of one man. Which is why He overlooked our transgressions and out of love for mankind saved us from that condemnation of death and the resultant sinning which is caused by our fallen mortal nature.

You questions show that you do not understand why Christ came and actually what constitutes the fall. You have been so misled by the Augustinian theory of Original Sin for 500 years that most actually assume it is actually scriptural.

because we all sin on our own. We are responsible for our sins, not the sin of Adam.

Not just Mary, but every human being is born without sin Our problem is that we are born with a mortal nature and it is our mortal nature that causes us to sin. Rom 5:21, I Cor 15:56. Augustine had it completely backwards.

You are quite confused by the theory of Original Sin. We do not have Adam's sin or guilt. However we do have the nature, namely a mortal nature which was due to the condemnation of that one sin of Adam.

He is extremely confused. Those who came after the fall of Adam do not have the same free will to be exercised without indwelling sin or a perfect environment. The light of the gospel must shine unto man who is depraved and is in darkness. You can't raise a child without sin and there is no scripture to support it in any way. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child and must be taught the way he must go and to refrain from the things of the flesh and learn the grace of God. A child has no ability to distinguish between good and evil and can not discern sin.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Was Lucifer created to sin? God says iniquity was found in him. Its called the mystery of iniquity. So children are not born to sin but are born in iniquity with is a nature of sin because the sinful nature is part of humanity even though all of humanity did not commit the original sin of Adam and Eve. But God said that all have sinned and come short of His glory and this includes infants. No the child has not committed a sin but has a sinful nature bent on sin. What child that you know is not naturally selfish unless taught differently. Children are a blank slate. Its God's word that He writes on our hearts that we may not sin against Him...May not..but we have a choice.

Would appreciate some clarifications, as it seems that you are mixing various concepts.
You are confusing Ezekiel 28 with 2 Thessalonians 2, and then connecting the two passages to babies being born in sin. How does the context of these two passages show that children are born "in iniquity?"

So children are not born to sin but are born in iniquity with is a nature of sin because the sinful nature is part of humanity even though all of humanity did not commit the original sin of Adam and Eve.

What is your definition of iniquity? Where in the bible is "sinful nature" mentioned? I agree that the sin of Adam has affected mankind in some way, but nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly explain how or in what form. Sinful nature or being "born in sin" is just an Augustinian doctrine that has no biblical basis. Before Augustine, the church believed differently.

But God said that all have sinned and come short of His glory and this includes infants.

This sounds like willful sin to me, and not sin (or sinful nature) that was inherited from Adam. It says nothing about being "born in sin."

No the child has not committed a sin but has a sinful nature bent on sin.

What child that you know is not naturally selfish unless taught differently.

Infants do emotionally manipulate and are self focused. How else would they make their needs known in the absence of the ability to articulate? Yes, when they eventually learn to speak, they do display selfish tendencies, and are disobedient. However, they are too young to grasp the gravity of sin and it's consequences. So would God count their willful sins against them?

Children are a blank slate..

That's exactly what I am saying. Children are a blank slate. They aren't born guilty of Adam's sin, although they suffer the consequences of it. They may even suffer the consequences of their earthly parents' sins.

Its God's word that He writes on our hearts that we may not sin against Him...May not..but we have a choice

I'm glad that you believe that man is born with a free will, and is not "totally depraved."

 

[wincam]

Man as he is now does not have a freewill because his will is flawed - see Paul at Rmns. 7:15-25 - wincam

 

[onlinebuddy]

Man as he is now does not have a freewill because his will is flawed - see Paul at Rmns. 7:15-25 - wincam

So he has a will, right? A flawed one! This means that he has the ability to make a choice, and he is not a robot.
So can you tell me who's responsible for his will being flawed?

 

[wincam]

So he has a will, right? A flawed one! This means that he has the ability to make a choice, and he is not a robot.
So can you tell me who's responsible for his will being flawed?

again you are mistaken - we really do not have choice either - a little study and reflection should have revealed this in the major factors in our lives - we did not choose when and where we where born nor to whom - what country what family what religion, skin colour, male or female, handsome or ugly, able or disabled, dull or genius, etc, etc. and yet some will still persist and insist we have choice - wincam

 

[wincam]

again you are mistaken - we really do not have choice either - a little study and reflection should have revealed this in the major factors in our lives - we did not choose when and where we where born nor to whom - what country what family what religion, skin colour, male or female, handsome or ugly, able or disabled, dull or genius, etc, etc. and yet some will still persist and insist we have choice - btw we do not choose we are chosen - even salvation is a gift given to whomsoever for can the pot demand of the potter why has thou made me thus and not so - often referred to in other cultures as the heaven born - wincam

 

[wincam]

again you are mistaken - we really do not have choice either - a little study and reflection should have revealed this in the major factors in our lives - we did not choose when and where we where born nor to whom - what country what family what religion, skin colour, male or female, handsome or ugly, able or disabled, dull or genius, etc, etc. and yet some will still persist and insist we have choice - btw we do not choose we are chosen - even salvation is a gift given to whomsoever for can the pot demand of the potter why has thou made me thus and not so - often referred to in other cultures as the heaven born - wincam

we in fact do nothing not even breathe but we seek ego inflation and try and claim glory that is due to God alone for ourselves whereas in fact it is in Him that we truly move and live and have our being[Acts 17:28] - btw I notice you post under the flag of India so tell me have you read the Indian 'Purana' = old forgotten wisdom/hidden teaching - it seems not many in India have - wincam

 

[Roberth]

Where does it say that He was born spiritually alive. Just what does that actually mean?

Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us (our corporate life) alive together with Christ"....

What does Paul mean by dead in trespasses? See verse 3: "fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind".

Note that in the spiritually dead the mind and flesh are in harmony.

"In Christ" our shared humanity from Adam was made spiritually alive. Christ is the 2nd Adam, therefore He is our corporate man. Hence He was made spiritually alive at the incarnation. If not, He would have sinned as we do....

Also read Col 2:13

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (God) has made (you, the life we share with Adam) alive together with Him (Christ)

 

[Cassian]

Roberth,

Eph 2:5 "even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us (our corporate life) alive together with Christ"....

this is not referring to spiritual life. This is referring to the fact that through Adeam's sin we were condemend to death. Christ by His resurrection gave life to all men, physical life, an eternal existence again. Vs 5 tells us we are saved by grace. Christ's redemptive work the atonement was solely His work, all grace, man had nothing to do with it. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, II Tim 1:10, Col 1:15-20.

If this was actually speaking of spiritual life then you also would need to say that Christ was spiritually dead as well.

"In Christ" our shared humanity from Adam was made spiritually alive. Christ is the 2nd Adam, therefore He is our corporate man. Hence He was made spiritually alive at the incarnation. If not, He would have sinned as we do....

quite the contrary, unless you are a Universalist and they do not even interpret this verse this way.

Christ arose physically not spiritually. He gave life, physical life to our mortal natures. That life takes place at the resurrection but is it physical not spiritual. I Cor 15:52-54. Spiritual only refers to our personal relationship with Christ.

Also read Col 2:13

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (God) has made (you, the life we share with Adam) alive together with Him (Christ)

this is also physical not spiritual. Again you have the same problem, you have Christ being spiritually dead. He was physically dead.
All these references are Incarnational, does not deal with our personal spiritual relationship with Christ.

 

[Roberth]

Roberth,

this is not referring to spiritual life. This is referring to the fact that through Adam's sin we were condemend to death. Christ by His resurrection gave life to all men, physical life, an eternal existence again. .

Wrong! Not even close. That's not what Paul is stating at all..

 

[Cassian]

Roberth,

Wrong! Not even close. That's not what Paul is stating at all..

It is precisely what he is addressing. The only reason you make a negative assertion is because you have no evidence to support your statement.
This understanding of the fall, salvation from the fall, and the Incarnation has been understood this way for 2000 years unchanged.

I want you to explain just what it means that Christ was dead spiritually and that He arose from the grave spiritually. I want you to explain just how the general resurrection will be a spiritual resurrection. when you die, do you die spiritually?

 

[wincam]

People want to believe what they want to believe. A good example are the Mormons, the Muslims, Catholics. They really do not want the Truth from God. All they want is a god they can control.

exactly the opposite is the case where Catholics are concerned unlike Protestants they do not all play at each one individually being Popes and infallible in their own eyes and even play at being God and claiming individual scripture interpretation on inspiration by the HS - They don't want to be controlled but want their warped freewill to prevail and not God's will to done on earth as it is in heaven - wincam

 

[wincam]

we in fact do nothing not even breathe but we seek ego inflation and try and claim glory that is due to God alone for ourselves whereas in fact it is in Him that we truly move and live and have our being[Acts 17:28] - btw I notice you post under the flag of India so tell me have you read the Indian 'Purana' = old forgotten wisdom/hidden teaching - it seems not many in India have - wincam

btw I do not mean the religious Puranas like the Vedas and the Upanisads but the old and ancient nearly lost Indian philosophy now so well researched and restored by Dr.Paul Brunton - wincam

 

[Budman]

‘Yes! We must believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was immaculate in her conception… There is no salvation to those who do not believe this dogma!’

The RCC sure loves to threaten people with the ultimate punishment who won't bend to it's will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Roberth,

It is precisely what he is addressing. The only reason you make a negative assertion is because you have no evidence to support your statement.
This understanding of the fall, salvation from the fall, and the Incarnation has been understood this way for 2000 years unchanged.

You will never convince someone who believes this way, The only thing you can do is pray for them.

If he does not understand that death literally means seperation (physical death is the separation of the human soul from the physical body, spiritual death is the seperation or barrier paced between God and man). then there is no hope. he has religion, and words of men, and not truth.

 

[KenAllan]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Faith is received by believing in Jesus. Grace is received from God.

Salvation is received by Faith and Grace.

To teach that Salvation is received by believing Mary was born without sin proves this person has NEVER accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Roberth]

Roberth,

I want you to explain just what it means that Christ was dead spiritually and that He arose from the grave spiritually.

I don't need to because I never stated the above.