don't you know it was Adam and Eve that were guilty - we had not even been born to even sin etc - wincam
Young Earth creationism
- Thread starter Roberth
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don't you know it was Adam and Eve that were guilty - we had not even been born to even sin etc - wincam
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Tintin
Guest
The Bible is largely a history book played out in a few different genres. But it contains some science. If the main purpose of the Bible is spiritual, why did Jesus bother to come to earth as a man? The Bible is concerned very much with the spiritual realm, but it's written for those who still live in the physical realm. Your idea if taken to its most extreme results in Gnosticism, and there's nothing biblical about that one. Finally, the NT was written roughly 2 millennia ago, but the OT was written much earlier.
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Tintin
Guest
Not true. God's creation was declared good, and with the advent of Adam and Eve, very good. Satan and his ilk would've had to fall between the short time they were created and the time Satan tempted Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. If Satan and his kind fell before the foundation of the world, creation wouldn't be good at all. It would've already been marred by sin and its consequences.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
so you can not say where all that water came from then?
The fountains of the great deep broke open.
you do understand, the Hebrew uses the term which means to split apart. to forcibly open, to break apart due to extreme pressure.
so yes, the bible does talk about the earth splitting open. and these fountains of the deep pouring water into the atmosphere..
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
In adam, all die,, Yes, that means you and I, whether we have sinned or not does not matter.
The Bible do give us the answer
Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
Gen 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
And all in this case means ALL...
This is not true, again the Bible do have the answer
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
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AboundingGrace
Guest
With respect.. after the covering cherub became Satan, he didn't have control or evil influence over everything, what God created would not become cursed, if that were possible as you have stated. That would mean that God was tainted too.
But, it was only according to Adam (having God-given rulership on earth) giving his subjection to Satan that brought about the curse upon the earth.
Satan tried to overcome God but he couldn't, so he made his pitch to Adam and overcame him. A much easier target.
This is interesting points you both make.
On Tintin's point, remember that Satan was not part of the creation (as I understand it). They were already created before the creation event. And also the word tov was translated as good and could also be translated as - functioning according to purpose
AboundingGrace; if we read Isaiah 14 it is clear that Satan wanted to exult himself above God's creation and the question I have is, when did Satan became corrupt? God cursed him in the Garden of Eden but was he already fallen then? I don't know
I see then, you haven't understood who God was pointing to in Ezek.28 and 31.
Nor this...
Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV
That's still not equal to the shaking of the earth that God is going to do in the future. Earthquakes are not necessary for waters to flow out the earth's depths either. Furthermore, the waters on the earth shown at Gen.1:2-9 in part making the firmament (sky) reveals where most of that water came from for Noah's flood.
This is interesting points you both make.
On Tintin's point, remember that Satan was not part of the creation (as I understand it). They were already created before the creation event. And also the word tov was translated as good and could also be translated as - functioning according to purpose
AboundingGrace; if we read Isaiah 14 it is clear that Satan wanted to exult himself above God's creation and the question I have is, when did Satan became corrupt? God cursed him in the Garden of Eden but was he already fallen then? I don't know
The devil has been pretty crafty at hiding when his rebellion of old was. He's got men creating doctrines believing Adam and Eve's sin was responsible for his fall from heaven to the earth.
The following is a parable about that time of old when he first rebelled...
Ezek 31:2-9
2 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; "Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
3 Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
God begins with telling Ezekiel to speak to Pharaoh, and then immediately begins using "the Assyrian" as a type, but for whom? In Isaiah, there are some examples where God uses the king of Assyria as a type example for Satan himself. He did this also with the prince and king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28.
4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field.
5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
What "waters" would those be? Have to keep going to find out. God is using the analogy of a great tree that was exalted above all the other trees, because it was fed by great waters.
6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
The picture God is painting about him is of a great tree with long branches and thick leaves that held the fowls of heaven, and provided shade for all the beasts of the field. The idea still is how this one was exalted. This idea of dwelling under a shadow was used back in Judges 9 in the parable of the bramble bush...
Judg 9:14-15
14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
KJV
Problem with a bramble bush, it doesn't give much of a shadow from shade. The Judges 9 example serves as an opposite condition than the Ezek.31 analogy of the high cedar exalted.
In the situation in Ezek.31, God says about this Assyrian, "under his shadow dwelt all great nations". Is God speaking about the literal flesh king of Assyria with this analogy, or someone else? Have to keep going to find out...
7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him
KJV
Well, we KNOW the flesh kings of Assyria were NEVER in God's Garden of Eden. So who is God speaking about there?
He is telling us about Satan before he rebelled with that analogy of the high cedar. This is a similar type comparison that God does in the Ezekiel 28 chapter, for we know neither the flesh prince or king of Tyrus were anointed cherubim, nor were they ever in God's Garden of Eden. But Satan was.
Those great waters in the Ezek.31 analogy represent God's River of Gen.2 that flowed out of His Garden of Eden originally, and fed four other rivers upon the earth. Satan is being shown as a high cedar, exalted in God's Garden of Eden in this Ezek.31 analogy.
But when we read Gen.3 about Adam and Eve in association with God's Garden of Eden, Satan was already in his role as "that old serpent" of Rev.12:9, tempting Eve. That means by the time of Adam and Eve, his being exalted as that high cedar in God's Garden was already over, meaning he had already rebelled against God by then, and had drawn a third of the angels to earth with him.
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Tintin
Guest
I see what you're saying, but Satan's very presence on Earth would have tainted creation to some degree. And no, that doesn't mean God would be tainted. He's the Creator, everything else is the created. He's outside of His creation but intimately involved in it.
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Tintin
Guest
This is interesting points you both make.
On Tintin's point, remember that Satan was not part of the creation (as I understand it). They were already created before the creation event. And also the word tov was translated as good and could also be translated as - functioning according to purpose
AboundingGrace; if we read Isaiah 14 it is clear that Satan wanted to exalt himself above God's creation and the question I have is, when did Satan became corrupt? God cursed him in the Garden of Eden but was he already fallen then? I don't know
Actually, we don't know exactly when God's angels were created. We just know that they had to be created during Creation Week (because everything was created then, starting with space, time and matter).
It almost sounds like you think God originally created Satan evil.
In Ezek.28, God showed that He originally created Satan perfect in his ways. Satan served God back then prior to his rebellion. He was even perfect in serving God then, which is what that means. So if you can understand it, when Satan was a good cherub following God, there was no... evil or sin in that time.
In 1 John 3, he said the devil sinned from the beginning. John is referring to the actual FIRST sin ever done, i.e., Satan coveting God's Throne and drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. Since Satan was already in God's Eden as "that old serpent" tempting Eve, then it means he had already sinned, even before Adam and Eve did.
Rev.12:3-4 reveals an old beast kingdom Satan first rebelled with, a beast system that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns. That one is not the one for the end in Rev.13 which has ten crowns. That one with seven crowns in Rev.12:3-4 is given in conjunction with the time of Satan drawing a third of the angels to the earth with him.
So where do you think Satan had that old beast kingdom with seven crowns setup against God? On this old earth is where.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
lol.. Now who is talking silly. I already asked how all that water in the atmosphere could possibly cover the earth in a worldwide flood. Where ALL dry land is covered? which by the way, we know there is not enough water in the autmosphere to do this, let alone maintain rain across thr whole planet for 40 days and nights.
Again, if you just open you mind you may see, how the subteranian water column burst through the earth after a major catastrophic upheaval of the land (which started the continental drift I may add)
there is proof that this happened, but sadly I do not think you have any desire to discuss this your mind is made up.. so why are we even bothering?
I assume that Angels etc were already in existence prior to Genesis. Reason being is that Genesis refers to the creation of OUR Universe and world, not spiritual, we do not know what already existed in other dimensions.
This dimension we live in was at one point the empty void, if you look at string theory and so on, you will see that science is now coming to terms that numerous dimensions can exist, albeit an empty nothingness.
Therefore angels may have been around for some time prior to Genesis. For all we know Genesis creation could have been the final straw that made Satan rebel.
This dimension we live in was at one point the empty void, if you look at string theory and so on, you will see that science is now coming to terms that numerous dimensions can exist, albeit an empty nothingness.
Therefore angels may have been around for some time prior to Genesis. For all we know Genesis creation could have been the final straw that made Satan rebel.
That's where you would be very wrong.
The number of crowns of that Rev.12 beast had only seven. The one for the end in Rev.13 is to have ten crowns. Those two verses are given together in conjunction with each other.
You simply don't want to admit what the Gen.1:2-9 show about the location of those waters upon the earth, with God moving part of them up above the earth to form today's cloud atmosphere. The rest of those waters of Gen.1:2 He left upon the earth. And then He still had to move the waters left on the earth to make the dry land appear, again. So either way during Noah's flood, the waters just in the sky would have been enough to flood the earth.