the rapture

ATH1 · Dec 17, 2015

You got me puzzled there, right in your last statement about the woe. I have to study up on this to give you an answer.

I do know, that as long as we are in our human body, Jesus has not come back yet. I do know he does not do things in secret. I am guilty of not studying the woes. I'll get back.

a friend...allan

popeye · Dec 18, 2015

PlainWord said:

THIS IS A LONG POST BUT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WILL HAPPEN SOON, PLEASE READ!!

DP has it right. "Where the Eagles are Gathered" is absolutely a place where the "tares" are taken.

Luke 17:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

The ONE TAKEN is the Wicked. The Condemned. The Tare. Jesus uses the IDENTICAL analogy in Mat 13 concerning the wheat and tare in the field and that it is the wicked one to be taken:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
[SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

The disciples asked: "Where (will the taken one be taken) Lord?
The Lord answered" (To the) body, (where the) eagles will be gathered.

As to where the WICKED are taken, we have the answer in Rev 19:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, [SUP]18[/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[SUP][/SUP] and slave, both small and great.”

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Thus the wicked are literally taken to Armageddon or the Battle of Gog and Magog. It is the same battle which takes place in the Plains of Megiddo north of Jerusalem. The nations mentioned in Ezek 38 are all Muslim nations. They are being discussed here:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely. [SUP]9 [/SUP]You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.”

Obviously those "Brought back from the sword gathered from many people" is the Jewish Nation. The fulfillment of this prophesy began 67 years ago.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws...

Please pay close attention to the countries mentioned because you will see them again:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them...

They are being forcefully taken to the fight. They enter Israel and they also enter Saudi Arabia as we see here. Sheba and Dedan are in Saudi Arabia.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all their young lions will say to you, ‘Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your army to take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder?’”’

Sheba and Dedan to the United States is ...">

If there was any doubt, it is cleared up here:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes.”

So we have a massive army from the north, attacking the south and also entering Israel in the latter days. Sound familiar? It comes right out of Dan 11:

[SUP]41 [/SUP]He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. [SUP]42 [/SUP]He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. [SUP]43 [/SUP]He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. [SUP]44 [/SUP]But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many.

The "HE" is the King of the NORTH, AKA, the Man of Sin, AKA the Beast from the EARTH, AKA the AntiChrist. This HE is spoken of in Rev 13 and He directs all Muslims to follow and serve the Beast from the Sea which is from the area north of Israel.

All of this deals with Muslim nations. They all follow ISLAM (in various ways). They all have been following the wrong God (Allah) and the wrong prophet (Muhammad). Again, who is captured in Rev 19?

the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet

And what becomes of those who have been serving the Beast, have taken his mark, or his name, or the number of his name? Back to Ezek 38:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, [SUP]20 [/SUP]so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence.

Notice the same reference to the birds of heaven again that we saw in Rev 19 and also Luke 17. All of this deals with the same events. We also have a great earthquake. What else do we have?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.”’

So we have:

Great Earthquake
Pestilence and bloodshed (war)
Flooding rains
Great Hailstones
Fire and Brimstone

There are a lot of plagues mentioned in the bowls then we come to this in Rev 16:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.

All of this is targeted wrath against a specific people (MUSLIMS) in a specific part of the world - The MIDDLE EAST. The same Middle East where there has been trouble for thousands of years. Thus the WRATH OF GOD is not global and we need not be Raptured to be spared HIS wrath. We simply need to follow his instructions (Rev 18) and get out!!! of this area!!

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

GET OUT OF BABYLON before the judgment begins.

Jer 51:

[SUP]33 [/SUP]For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
“The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor
When it is time to thresh her;
Yet a little while
And the time of her harvest will come.”

HARVEST? JUDGMENT? DAUGHTER of BABYLON?

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Let the violence done to me and my flesh be upon Babylon,”
The inhabitant of Zion will say;
“And my blood be upon the inhabitants of Chaldea!”
Jerusalem will say.

Where is Chaldea?

Same place as ISIS.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]“I will bring them down Like lambs to the slaughter, Like rams with male goats.

Bring down from the north to be slaughtered in Meggido. Here is the command to GET OUT again in Jer 51. It matches perfectly Rev 18.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord.

Getting out of an area and flying off to heaven are completely different concepts. Here's why Babylon is NOT Jerusalem:

[SUP]47 [/SUP]Therefore behold, the days are coming That I will bring judgment on the carved images of Babylon; Her whole land shall be ashamed, And all her slain shall fall in her midst. [SUP]48 [/SUP]Then the heavens and the earth and all that is in them Shall sing joyously over Babylon; For the plunderers shall come to her from the north,” says the Lord.[SUP]49 [/SUP]As Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall, So at Babylon the slain of all the earth shall fall. [SUP]50 [/SUP]You who have escaped the sword, Get away! Do not stand still! Remember the Lord afar off, And let Jerusalem come to your mind.

Get away? Do not stand still? Sounds a lot like this.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

Doesn't it?

[SUP]54 [/SUP]The sound of a cry comes from Babylon, And great destruction from the land of the Chaldeans, [SUP]55 [/SUP]Because the Lord is plundering Babylon And silencing her loud voice..

Notice the destruction of Babylon comes from the North, from the area of the ancient Chaldeans. It is against the south (MECCA) Saudi Arabia and Israel.

So what is Babylon? Back to Jer 51:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

A burnt mountain? Like this one?

Rev 8:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The Burning Mountain is ISLAM. The sea are Muslims as in "BEAST of the SEA!"

Back to Jer 51:

Prepare the nations against her, Call the kingdoms together against her: Ararat, Minni, and Ashkenaz. Appoint a general against her; Cause the horses to come up like the bristling locusts.

We all know where Ararat is. Horses like locusts? John gets a lot of imagry from Jeremiah.

Rev 9: [SUP]7 [/SUP]The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

Again, here's what the Lord does.[SUP]

33 [/SUP]And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground. We know where this happens.

Ezekiel 39:15

The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man’s bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog.

He kills all of the Muslims, 100% of them. The KINGS of the EARTH (who have been following ISLAM) are identified here:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]all the mixed multitude, all the kings of the land of Uz, all the kings of the land of the Philistines (namely, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod); [SUP]21 [/SUP]Edom, Moab, and the people of Ammon; [SUP]22 [/SUP]all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastlands which are across the sea; [SUP]23 [/SUP]Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who are in the farthest corners; [SUP]24 [/SUP]all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed multitude (ARABS by definition) who dwell in the desert; [SUP]25 [/SUP]all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes; [SUP]26 [/SUP]all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another..

They have one thing in common, they are all Muslims. Stop looking of an European AntiChrist.

You are telling postrib s there is a rapture of the wicked at Jesus 2nd coming postrib.

That'll get em.

They already agree with you,but don't realize they believe SAINTS are raptured at that same time!!!LOL!!

You try to cover all the bases but your post mil rapture deal is a product of your mind sir.

That is WHY I asked you to produce a website that has your doctrine . You are privately spinning verses w/o the safety of witnesses.

popeye · Dec 18, 2015

DP said:

Uh,you just called me a liar. So,if you had a point,I think you might of cancelled it.

I can defend pretrib quite handily .

I am not the one with 50 clichés you guys are.

You take the debate into extra biblical dimensions because you are taught that.

You guys destroy the 10 virgin parable,and no matter what,you are forbidden by your doctrine to inspect the verses where the AC KILLS ALL HUMANOIDS ON THE PLANET.

You don't even realize you have NO POSTIB RAPTURE VERSES.

post just one.
In over 30 years I have NEVER seen you guys PRODUCE ONE

...not a single verse.

My style is abrasive. So I do apologize for that.

AWATAKEE sets a good example.

popeye · Dec 18, 2015

DP said:

You have no case.

Play it out. Play your deal out.

A harvest of wicked right?
Ok,where is it?

GWT JUDGEMENT. That isWHERE WE FIND IT.

NOW,LETS FORCE FIT IT.

You will need to get wild with that one.
Please see plainwords post. You need to get on board with that bible hand grenade . That is all you have left.

Do you see that???

You need a wicked gathered right?
Well plainword found one and ......BINGO....he MADE IT FIT.

I will keep doing what I do.
Let scripture lead and harmonize

popeye · Dec 18, 2015

That one taken,one left has ,as with others,blown up in ya'lls faces.

Another insurmountable debacle of verses.

All due to the fact of a rabbit trail that Doesn't even have to be.

Building on a verse that Jesus left us as a mystery,you guys built all that no mans land on a verse that doesn't serve either side.

To top it off,ya'll can't even see what you did.

popeye · Dec 18, 2015

You cannot build a doctrine on a negative.

"that pretrb lie of Satan"

Ok,go for it. Debunk it,dismantle it,expose it.

Get on your cause and give it a whirl.

When I get done debating you. You will be forced into extra biblical rabbit trails.

IOW,YOU ARE NOT TAKING A BIBLICAL STAND. That is why postrib rapture adherants go extra biblical.

The word destroys that position. Hands down.

DP · Dec 18, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

See Rev.11 about the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses in Jerusalem. That shows he's there within that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.

Then one need only use a little logic to know per Rev.11 that the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the tribulation timing, since the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period coming shows it's all over with all kingdoms becoming those of The Father and His Son. Thus the start of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe back in the Rev.9 chapter with the four angels loosed at the river Euphrates that were prepared for a certain year, month, day, hour, represents the start of the tribulation period.

PlainWord · Dec 19, 2015

popeye said:

Popeye,

Truth is not found in the words of men but from the Word of God. For you, and many others, teach of multiple future returns of Christ and multiple future resurrections, yet the Word teaches of one future resurrection of the just, and one resurrection of the unjust. They happen together at the end of days. You will not find a separate resurrection of the just before the Tribulation, then a double resurrection of both just and unjust after the Tribulation. Likewise, you will not find a Return of Christ before the Tribulation and another after.

The Word teaches us of one resurrection (both just and unjust) at the end of days when the old heaven and earth are to be no more and are replaced by a new heaven and new earth. This event coincides with the Return of the Lord and the changing of the living who remain. The resurrection coincides with the judgment of both wicked and righteous. The righteous inherit the Kingdom as spiritual beings. The wicked inherit eternal shame and contempt and are absent from the Kingdom.

Jesus does not teach in multiple future resurrections. He only teaches one:

Mat 22:[SUP] 29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Notice "the resurrection" is singular as in one event? Whenever the Resurrection is discussed, it is always placed at the end.

Dan 12: And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

How many times do you think the Book of Life is going to be opened? Daniel teaches that both the wicked and righteous are raised together. Daniel understood that he would not rise until the end of days. Daniel was not taught that he would come back to earth before the Tribulation to be resurrected then return back to heaven. Daniel finished telling us about the Tribulation before this passage:

Dan 12: [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

When does Daniel get his inheritance? Before the Tribulation" I don't think so.

Jesus also teaches us about one resurrection and locates it at the end, not once but 4 TIMES!!:

John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

And here:

John 6: [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And here:

John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And here:

John 11 [SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Again, Jesus says, "the resurrection" not the "first resurrection." Jesus doesn't reference the Tribulation at all in any of the above 4 passages. Don't you find that odd? The old world is still here before the tribulation. Corruption still exists.

We see the resurrection tied to the end of the world meaning it cannot happen before the tribulation which is of course before wrath and judgment. The teaching of the resurrection being at the end of the world is found in the oldest and newest books of the Bible as we see from Job. Job understood the same as Daniel and the same as Jesus:

Job 14: [SUP]10 [/SUP]But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]As water disappears from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dries up,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! [SUP]14 [/SUP]If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.

When does Job say man will arise? When does Job think he will arise. AFTER THE WRATH!! TIL THE HEAVENS ARE NO MORE!! The oldest book agrees with the newest book:

Rev 20 [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

You see Popeye, Paul doesn’t teach anything new and different such as a pre-trib resurrection and return of the Lord.

1 Cor 15: [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end.

Paul didn’t say, “Then comes the Tribulation” did he? You see nowhere in the above passage does Paul suggest a separate resurrection of believers before the Tribulation and another resurrection after the Tribulation. He only discusses one resurrection of those who are Christ’s at His coming. The very next thing Paul tells us is the end comes.

Nowhere in Mat 24 or Mark 13 are we told of a Pre-Trib Rapture return of Christ. The only return of Christ mentioned is the one AFTER the Tribulation. Don't you find that odd? Yet you still believe that the below happens before the Tribulation when the Tribulation isn't even discussed or mentioned. This famous "Pre-Trib Rapture" passage you locate before the Tribulation all because of a misguided belief that in order to avoid God's wrath, that we have to be removed from the planet which is unprecedented even during Noah's Flood. NEVER was man ever removed from the planet to avoid God's wrath.

Therefore, see the below passage where it belongs - AT THE END.

1 Thes 4: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Those who remain all the way to the final day of earth are changed, in the twinkling of an eye. Paul teaches this in 1 Cor 15. Peter adds to all of the above and is also in total agreement.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [SUP]12[/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter did not tell us to look forward to the Tribulation now did he? If we were to be resurrected before the Tribulation, shouldn't that be the event we are to look forward to? But no, we are told to look for the COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD WHEN THE HEAVENS WILL BE DISSOLVED.

Sorry Popeye. I'm not going to listen to the fabrications of man. I think I will stick with the Word. You would be well served to do the same.

Wall · Dec 19, 2015

popeye said:

No post trib rapture verses???? How about 1Thes4

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2015

Wall said:

Hi Wall,

You left out the rest of the sequence of 1 Thes.4:13-18:

Resurrection and catching away:
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Wrath of God (day of the Lord):
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The reference to the times and dates would be referring back to the event that Paul was just speaking about which was the resurrection and catching away, which is also referred to as the day of the Lord. After the church has been removed, then Paul says, "While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly and they will not escape" and of said wrath believers are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, the order of events is the resurrection and catching away, followed by sudden destruction, God's wrath.

Wall · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

The two set of scriptures below are not only the same event but are even in the same order. There is only one Second Coming and there is no rapture (as preached). When Jesus meets us in the air you will find no where in scripture that He brings us to heaven. What you do find in scripture is that He brings us to the 1000yr period of rest.

[FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4 and 5
4:15 - coming (Parousia)
4:17 - clouds
4:16 - shout, voice trump
4:17 - caught up together
5:1 – times and seasons
5:2 - a thief
5:3 - sudden destruction
5:6 - watch

Matthew 24
24:27 - coming (Parousia)
24:30 - clouds
24:31 - sound of a trumpet
24:31 - gather together
24:36 - day or hour
24:43 - a thief
24:39 - took them in a flood
24:42 - watch

[/FONT]

Wall · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord
Isaiah26-----------women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Yeah. Verses 20-21. Surely the Day of the Lord

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2015

In 1 Thes.13-18 Paul is outlining the resurrection and catching away, then in 5:1 Paul referring back to what he just wrote about referring to the resurrection and catching away he says,

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

Therefore, the resurrection and catching away is also referred to as "the day of the Lord." To be clear, the day of the Lord begins and includes the resurrection and catching away which is then followed by the wrath of God. The wrath part of the day of the Lord will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. As I pointed out in the previous post, the order is resurrection and catching away followed by the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer. Paul also refers to the resurrection and catching away as being the day of the Lord in 2 Thes.2:1-2 when he says:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

So in the scripture above, Paul begins with the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him, which is the same event he outlined in 1 Thes.4:13-18. Again in the above scripture, he relates the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him referring to that event as "the day of the Lord." My point is that, the scriptures include the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him as being apart of the day of the Lord and what initiates it. Following that, will be the revealing of the antichrist, which is the opening of the first seal, as that rider on the white horse who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest.

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2015

Wall said:

Hi Wall,

The problem with making 1 Thes.4 and 5 with Matt.24 as being the same event is that, this would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Scripture states we are not appointed to suffer. The resurrection and the catching away and Christ's return to the earth are two separate events. The event of the resurrection and catching away will be to resurrect the dead in Christ and to remove the living believers prior to God's wrath being poured out. Where Matt.24 is in reference to Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. In fact, the Church/Bride are those who are seen following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean as seen in Rev.19:6-8,14.

Regarding the above, see John 14:1-3

Wall · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

So your sayin the rapture is during the Day of the Lord. And that it happens before the tribulation period. Cant be!

MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

{verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
{verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

[24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

As found in Joel; found in the book of Acts

There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event. The book of Acts & Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Mark says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. How can anyone claim the great tribulation period to be part of the "day of the Lord" if the "day of the Lord" doesnt begin till AFTER the tribulation?

REVELATION 6[12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON BECAME AS BLOOD; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

The 6th seal = Day of the Lord

Wall · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

We are not appointed to wrath Ahwatukee. Here we see the people of God are not appointed to wrath. You claim we are not appointed to wrath because we will be raptured into heaven during this period. You will not find one scripture that says we are going to heaven when we are changed “in the twinkling of an eye”. Not a one. So lets seee why we are not appointed to wrath.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Yeah, we aint a going nowhere but we will be protected. We will be kept from the evil to come.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

We all should know that the tribulation period comes before the “Day of the Lord”. Gods wrath does not begin until the Day of the Lord which immediatley happens AFTER the tribulation period. Scripture above points out that we should seek the Lord BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” that we shall be hid during the Day of the Lords anger. Not a word about the tribulation period.

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

The desolation of the wicked takes place on the return of Christ. Yup, the Day of the Lord. So can any of you Rapturist explain why we are told not to be afraid at that time IF we have been raptured off to heaven. Yeah. You cant explain that. Its because we will be here on Gods green earth

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Just read the scripture above and believe it. The evildoers will be cut off. When? The Day of the Lord ofcourse. We are to wait patiently for Him till that time. According to the Rapturist we have been with Him for 7 yrs in heaven. Not so uh...cording to scripture

PSALM 37 [34] WAIT ON THE LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen

DP · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Amazing. Well, you admit that Paul was speaking of the 1 Thess.4 caught up event is to occur on the "day of the Lord" that he covered about timing in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

But then you wrongly MOVE that "day of the Lord" backwards, to before the tribulation.

If you study about the "day of the Lord" events per the OT prophets, you will discover THAT is the very DAY of Christ's return to pour out God's cup of wrath upon the wicked. It is not during the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation, actually that cup ends the tribulation time.

This is why Jesus on the 6th Vial in Rev.16:15 warned His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and be careful to keep our garments lest we walk naked and in shame. It's because the "day of the Lord" events occur next, on the 7th Vial.

Rev.11 shows all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son with the coming of the 7th Trumpet. That is the "last trump" Paul was proclaiming in 1 Cor.15 involving the resurrection.

Rev.10 shows that when the 7th trumpet begins to sound, all the things about this world written by God's OT prophets will be finished.

So we have DEFINITE markers of that "day of the Lord" timing on the 7th Vial and 7th Trumpet.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul states that prior to the "day of Christ", which is actually the "day of the Lord" in the Greek, and prior to His gathering His Church, two things must FIRST happen, the great falling away, and the man of sin (Antichrist) revealed. So how can the "day of the Lord" happen PRIOR to that falling away and the Antichrist revealed? It cannot.

An even BIGGER sign was what Peter said in 2 Pet.3:10 about the elements burning up when the "day of the Lord" comes "as a thief". That's about God's consuming fire event on the last day of this world, which is how... His cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked when our Lord Jesus returns on THAT day, and not any other.

The doctrine you follow just has you keying on their idea that the wrath Paul said we are not appointed to is Satan's wrath during the tribulation. That's why they have confused you about the wrath Paul was ACTUALLY speaking of in 1 Thess.5, which is about God's wrath of His consuming fire on the last day of this world upon the wicked, which is what the "day of the Lord" event is actually about. They've tricked you into moving that day backwards in time, just to keep their Pre-trib Rapture tradition of men.

PlainWord · Dec 19, 2015

Ahwatukee,

I think you have the order backwards. Job tells us that the Wrath comes before the resurrection and that the resurrection happens at the end of the world. There is no more heaven and earth when the resurrection occurs.

Job 14:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But man dies and is laid away;
Indeed he breathes his last
And where is he?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
[SUP]12[/SUP]So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep. [SUP]13 [/SUP]“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If a man dies, shall he live again?
All the days of my hard service I will wait,
Till my change comes.

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2015

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. my Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

So in the Scripture above, Jesus tells his disciples and which includes all believers that, he is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for us. The Father's house would be without a doubt referring to heaven. 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, are when Jesus returns to take us back to the Father's house. As I have already pointed out, the church is the group that is seen following Christ out of heaven wearing fine linen, white and clean and riding on white horses, which demonstrates that we have to already be in heaven in order to be following him out of it.

I have seen people try to use this scripture to support their position before, but they don't pay attention to the details. First, Jesus prays himself, then for his immediate disciples and then for all believers. In the scripture that you quoted, Jesus is praying for his immediate disciples, those who were with him, that they not to be taken out of the world. And even if you attempted to associate this prayer with all believers, it would be false because obviously, regardless of timing, Jesus is coming back to gather all believers and take us back to the Father's house.

Let's be clear about the Day of the Lord, according to Paul it begins with the resurrection and catching away, which is followed by the wrath of God, which is carried out via the seal, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the church must be gathered and taken back to the Father's house prior to the first seal being opened, which begins God's wrath.

The problem with what you said above is that, if believers were here on earth to see God's destruction of the wicked, then all believers would also be exposed to God's wrath and that because it will involve the entire earth and there will be no where to hide. Not only that, but the worlds financial system of electronic crediting and debiting will only be accessible for those having the mark of the beast, which would mean that all believers could have no jobs, couldn't not pay their rents, mortgages, buy food or pay any debts of any kind. I think that you need to go back and read up on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to get an understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's wrath. By the time Christ returns to the earth to end the age there will hardly be anyone left on the earth. Regarding this Jesus said, "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

The only people who are going to be here during that last seven years will be Israel, the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne during the middle of the seven years and the great tribulation saints, who are never referred to as the church, but will be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been removed. The church, though mentioned throughout Revelation 1 thru 3, is never mentioned from chapter 4 onward. It is not until Rev.19 that we see the Bride/Church mentioned at the wedding of the Lamb , which will take place in heaven. Then, the church follows Christ out of heaven to the earth to end the age, where he establishes his millennial kingdom.

Chronological order of end-time events:

1.) Jesus is currently building his Church

2.) Once the church is completed, Christ will gather the dead and living believers and take us to the Father's house

3.) First Seal is opened, which is the revealing of that antichrist and initiates the wrath of God

4.) The rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments follow chronologically throughout the seven years

5.) In the middle of the seven the antichrist/beast sets up the abomination in the temple and proclaims himself to be God

6.) Shortly after the seventh bowl judgment is poured out, Christ returns as described in Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21

7.) The beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire

8.) An angel from heaven throws Satan into the Abyss and locks and seals it over him for a thousand years

9.) Judgment of the Goats and sheep

10.) Millennial period

Ahwatukee · Dec 19, 2015

PlainWord said:

And I'm telling you that according to scripture we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Christ already suffered it on our behalf. You and others need to understand the magnitude and severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that these involve the entire earth. There will be no place to go to escape them. The scripture from Job doesn't prove anything in regards to the order of events. If you believe that Christ is going to build his church and then send it through his wrath, then you don't understand the nature of God. Christ's promise to remove the living believers is to keep us out of the time of his wrath, which is unprecedented as it will decimate the population of the earth and bring all human government to an end. The order of events is the Removal of the church, followed by God's wrath, which is then followed by the return of the Lord to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Only Israel and the great tribulation saints will be here during the last 3 1/2 years before Christ returns to end the age.

Therefore, if you want to continue to believe as you do, you are free to do so. But as for me, scripture demonstrates that the church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the wrath of God.

the rapture

ATH1

Guest

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

popeye

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member