the rapture

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Timeline

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17The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. [SUP]46 [/SUP]About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” [SUP]47 [/SUP]And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.” [SUP]48 [/SUP]Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. [SUP]49 [/SUP]But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.” [SUP]50 [/SUP]And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. [SUP]51 [/SUP]And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. [SUP]52 [/SUP]The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

Apocalyptic writing was known for being literal. Revelation, also, is not known for being literal. Toward the beginning of Revelation, the author tells us the meaning of some of the symbolism:
As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

and in Chapter 12:
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan
, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Luke 10:18 - And He said to them, I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.)

No, I don't understand how it all fits together, but given scriptural evidence, I can't deny the overwhelming number of verses suggesting that these things happened in the "first century". The incredibly late date that scholars have assigned to the writing of Revelation is the main reason that Christians can't make this connection. Perhaps I've misapplied some of the scriptures above, but that doesn't change the fact that scripture after scripture points to fulfillment in Jesus Christ and the apostles during the first century.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And this "Hour of Trial" is what? The Great Tribulation? The Wrath of God? Something else?

They are being kept from or "out of" the hour of trial why? Because they persevered, right. You know the word, "persevere" is used only twice in the entire Bible, both in Revelation? Here is the other use.

Revelation 2:3
and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary.

and have patience.

PERSEVERE - PATIENCE - WAIT

Right in the middle of all the chaos of Rev 13 when we are told about the Beast of the Sea, just before the Beast of the earth we are given this:

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

We must we be patient? What is the CHURCH promised it will go through?

2 Corinthians 6:4

But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses...

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure...

James 1:3
knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

James 5:10
My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.

SUFFERING - DISTRESS - TRIBULATIONS

We, as a CHURCH and CHILDREN OF CHRIST are PROMISED THESE THINGS. Therefore when the Great Tribulation comes, it will be more of the same but on steroids.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

We see the results of Mat 24:9 here in Rev 7:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...

We are promised TRIBULATION and even DEATH for our faith. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere are we as a CHURCH body promised a cake walk and certainly nowhere are we promised a flight to heaven to avoid the worst tribulation.

Ask yourself: What is the purpose of the WRATH of GOD??? What has been going on to make God so angry?

ANSWER: The Great Tribulation (Satan's Great Tribulation) has been going on. That's why God is so angry. If GOD doesn't put a stop to it, Satan will kill everyone. So for the ELECT'S sake, God puts a stop to it:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

The above is not God's Wrath!! God does not need to shorten His own days. God is shortening Satan's Wrath, Satan's Tribulation whereby Satan is trying to kill everyone believers and sinners alike. Satan is a murder and the father of all murders.

Rev 12: Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Why do you suppose we have the above warning? What is the devil going to do on the earth in the above passage?

Why do you think the souls of the slain at the 5th seal are calling out for vengeance? Is it because God killed them with His wrath or is it because Satan did? When does God get his vengeance, before or after Satan? Paul tells us in 2 Thes 1:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...

and again by the writer of Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

GOD REPAYS. So the wicked had to be doing something for God to repay, right? And when does the REPAYING happen? The answer is right there in the above. WHEN JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.

Rev 18: “Come out of her, my people... [SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

We aren't told of a fly away to heaven. We are simply told to get out. This command is repeated in Jer 51:

[SUP]44 [/SUP]I will punish Bel in Babylon, And I will bring out of his mouth what he has swallowed; And the nations shall not stream to him anymore. Yes, the wall of Babylon shall fall. [SUP]45 [/SUP]“My people, go out of the midst of her! And let everyone deliver himself from the fierce anger of the Lord.


The RAPTURE has nothing to do with the Tribulation or escaping it. The Tribulation is aimed at us. Satan has deceived so many of my brothers and sisters into complacency telling you, "not to worry, you are going to fly away to heaven and be safe." Satan is coming to kill us - as many of us as he can!!! Jeremiah makes clear we are to deliver ourselves. We are to leave the area of Babylon.
Hi,

There's is something true here that "tribulation" which for the true Christian will undergo but the strange thing here is that the " Great tribulation" is another thing that for a real Christian ca no longer undergo. Question is; When did this "great tribulation" occur?

Thanks,
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Luke 10:18 - And He said to them, I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.)


T
hese are two different issues. Satan and his angels have yet to be cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. When Jesus said "I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning, it was in response to his disciples who were rejoicing because even the demons submitted to them. When Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven for good as seen in Rev.12:7, this still a future event that takes place at the seventh trumpet and is the third woe. This event is not something that will or can go unnoticed and that because once Satan and his angels have been cast out of heaven, they will be able to unleash their full evil and malice against humanity.

Another reason that Satan and his angels could not have yet been cast out of heaven is because, once the fifth trumpet/first woe has been sounded, the following announcement is made:

"The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come"

Like wise, after the sixth trumpet/second woe has been sounded, the following announcement is made:

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon"

The announcements that come after trumpets 5 & 6 demonstrates that the trumpets are in chronological order, meaning that the fifth trumpet/1st woe is sounded, followed by the sixth trumpet/2nd woe, which is then followed by the seventh trumpet/3rd woe.

Prior to the seventh trumpet/3rd woe, which is where Satan and his angels are cast out, the 5th and 6th trumpet must take place first. That being said, the world has not yet seen nor has it be recorded in history where those demonic beings have been let out of the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with stings like that of a scorpion, nor have we seen an army of 200 million kill a third of mankind by fire, sulfur and smoke. Seeing that the world has not yet seen the fulfillment of trumpets 5 & 6, then trumpet 7 could not have yet taken place, as it must take place after them.

After the world sees 200 million demonic mounted troops kill a third of mankind, then you can expect Satan and his angels to be cast out of heaven, but not before.
 
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Timeline

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1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.



1 Corinthians 15:55-57 [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; [SUP]57 [/SUP]but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-15 [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

2 Tim 1:8-11 [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.


I will also point out at this time that the New Jerusalem at the end of Revelation is The Church, the New Kingdom, that anyone can enter if they accept Jesus Christ (that is, to truly accept Jesus - not just recite a phrase(s)).

The whore of Revelation 17 is the old, physical city of Jerusalem. If you don't believe me, read the OT - God constantly refers to Israel and Judah as harlots throughout the last half of the OT.
 
S

sydlit

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Merry Christmas is coming soon. :)
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Forgive me, but you are already on the wrong track. Revelation is not a study of good vs. evil, but is a detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God that was prophesied of by the OT prophets and is quickly coming. All of the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will take place within that last seven years. Again, when people assign the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to historical events, it tells me that they don't understand end-time events nor the magnitude of God's wrath. Jesus said that all of those events would take place in that last generation leading up to his return.
No, forgive me. Show me the passage that tells us that all of the seals, trumps and bowls take place within 7 years. If you can't show me a passage that states this, then it is clear that you are making an assumption. Of the 4 Horsemen, as far as I know you only have a theory about the first one, that it is the A/C. I have not heard you express a theory about the 3 which follow or explain how the A/C can be the first horse when the A/C leads the final war of the Tribulation yet two more war events happen in the 2nd and 4th seal. The war led by the "A/C" is described in Ezek 38, 39, last part of Dan 11, in Jer 51 and Rev 19. So, again, what wars are those of the red and green (pale) horses????

This tells me that you are a student of traditional fundamentalist teaching and that you are unable to adjust your thinking when prophetic world events unfold. Are you one of those who think the A/C will lead the European Union and establish a new world-wide religion and require us all to take a microchip in our hand or forehead??? Meanwhile, the real BEAST is already at work beheading Christians, requiring everyone in its territory to swear allegiance or be killed yet you think nothing of it. HINT: Which religion beheads? Which is the world's largest False Religion which happen to surround Israel and hates her? Common, it isn't that hard.

These judgments of wrath that are coming will not be events that will silently be able to take place in the background of history, but as scripture states they will begin during that last seven years and will decimate the immediate population of that time and will dismantle all human government. Believe me, I know what I am talking about! I'm not just some guy spouting off his personal belief of what I think scripture has to say.
Actually, with respect, you are that some guy.

Granted, there will be many killed during the GT. FYI, the 4th Seal is the Great Tribulation. The 5th seal shows the results of it and the 6th seal is when the wrath starts. Again, turn to Mat 24:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the (1) sun will be darkened, and the (2) moon will not give its light; the (3) stars will fall from heaven, and the (4) powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the (5) sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the (6) tribes of the earth will mourn, and (7) they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Can you see that the passage begins by telling us the Tribulation is over??? Please let me know if you agree that everything stated after the first phrase occurs AFTER the Tribulation. I will list for you the events which occur AFTER the Tribulation:

Tribulation ends - then:
(1) Sun Darkens
(2) Moon Darkens
(3) Stars (Angels) fall from heaven
(4) Powers of Heavens Shaken
(5) The SIGN of the Son of Man (Christ) will appear in Heaven - we can see it from earth
(6) Tribes on earth mourn - they have time to do this, realizing they are in big trouble
(7) They will see the Son of Man coming on the Clouds of heaven

Are you with me? Do you agree all of the above happens AFTER the Tribulation Ends?

Now lets see if we can find the same events told in Revelation 6.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the (1) sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and (2) the moon became like blood. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the (3) stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is (4) shaken by a mighty wind. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, (6) hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the (7) wrath of the Lamb! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

(1) Sun became black (darkens)
(2) Moon turns to blood (= lunar eclipse which is a dark moon cast in red)
(3) Stars fall from heaven
(4) Powers of heaven shaken (#3 and #4 are the same event)
(5) sign of Son of Man not mentioned but clearly those on earth are terrified (Mourn)
(6) they have time to run and hide
(7) Christ is coming, they realize He isn't happy with them

So clearly the Tribulation is over BEFORE the opening of the 6th Seal because this is when the Wrath starts. The order of events are clear and tie perfectly to Mat 24:29-31. You need to put aside these traditions of men that you have been taught, open your eyes and re-read and re-study beliefs you've been holding because they are wrong.

This time of wrath is coming regardless of what you or other's views are and they will bring this age to its end. As Jesus said, unless this time of wrath had been shortened
Jesus doesn't say that!! Jesus states that the Tribulation days will be cut short, not the wrath.

a fourth of the earth's immediate population will be killed by war, famine, disease and by wild beasts of the earth
It doesn't say that a fourth of the world is killed. Not to be nit picky but what does it actually say?

And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

They have power over a fourth of the earth. They have power to kill by: war; starvation; disease and/or chemical and biological weapons and/or nuclear; and by nations which sponsor terror. The number killed is not identified. The 5th seal shows a great many Christians killed during the 4th seal. Since we are not appointed to God's wrath, they could not have been killed by God's wrath meaning the 4th seal cannot be part of God's wrath. You can't have it both ways. We are either appointed to God's wrath or we aren't.

As for the trumpets, they are all symbolic. They are not literal. The two witnesses are also symbolic. If you don't understand that John wrote in Apocalyptic literary style to disguise his message to the churches in case the Roman's found it, and that he used well-known OT symbols that Jewish Christians would understand but nobody else would, to not only protect himself as he was under their control, but to also protect the churches, then you will never understand Revelation and it will continue to be a mystery to you.

Do those events sound like something that could take place behind the scenes of history? As I said, those who try to relate these events of wrath as being past historical events have no idea of what they are talking about. So, when you see a political leader make a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their long awaited temple, then you will know that the last seven years has begun and that these events are to be interpreted literally. And all of the judgments of wrath that I mentioned above will follow in the order listed. When that happens, think back on this post, because it is coming, whether you believe it or not.
LOL. It's happening now, right before your very eyes and you are missing it.

If a literal great mountain burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, there would be no more life left on the planet.

If a tiny star, smaller than our sun even came close to us, the entire planet would fry then the gravitational pull would cause the earth to be pulled into the sun and the earth would be consumed.

If a third of our sun was literally struck and gave off 1/3 less heat, the planet would freeze in mere minutes.

If all the grass was burned up at the 1st trumpet, then I guess the grass grew back by the 5th trumpet? That would be hard to do with freezing temps and 1/3 less daylight.

Do you not know that "grass" represents people?



Job 5:25

You shall also know that your descendants shall be many, And your offspring like the grass of the earth.

Psalm 72:16
There will be an abundance of grain in the earth, On the top of the mountains; Its fruit shall wave like Lebanon; And those of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.

Psalm 92:7
When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.

Isaiah 40:6
The voice said, “Cry out!” And he said, “What shall I cry?” “All flesh is grass, And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field.

Isaiah 40:7
The grass withers, the flower fades, Because the breath of the Lord blows upon it; Surely the people are grass.

1 Peter 1:24
because “All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away,

What does a burning mountain represent?

Jeremiah 51:25

“Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth,” says the Lord. “And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

Revelation 8:8
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.

What was Jeremiah talking about? Same thing as John who uses Jeremiah's symbol which actually goes back to Moses.

"Mountain" is the Law given to Moses. The "Burning Mountain" or "Destroying Mountain" is a false law or doctrine. In this case it is Babylon which is ISLAM thrown into the SEA of Muslims.

Study the OT symbols in use in Revelation my friend. If you don't, you like many others, will think there will be two literal fire-breathing men standing on the Temple literally burning people alive who try to harm them. Then you think a beast will actually crawl up from a pit and kill the two.

Study the OT symbols my friend. I'm here to help if you have any questions.

So, when you see a political leader make a seven year covenant with Israel allowing them to build their long awaited temple, then you will know that the last seven years has begun and that these events are to be interpreted literally
My oh my. Where does it say that a 7 year pact was made with Israel??? Again, it doesn't say that.

Dan 9: And till the end of the war desolations are determined. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

It says the covenant was made with many!! Israel is not named.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Hi,

There's is something true here that "tribulation" which for the true Christian will undergo but the strange thing here is that the " Great tribulation" is another thing that for a real Christian ca no longer undergo. Question is; When did this "great tribulation" occur?

Thanks,
We, as a church, have been enduring Tribulation since the beginning of the church. The GREAT TRIBULATION begins when the Abomination of Desolation is seen. When the Abomination of Desolation is set up, war will immediately break out in Israel as Daniel 11 tells us:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

Zechariah 13 tells us that indeed, 2/3 of Jerusalem will be cut off during this event.

Jesus tells those in specifically in Judea to flee to the surrounding mountains (nations) in Mat 24:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.


To better understand what the Abomination of Desolation is you need to understand who the "desolate" are. The Desolate are the Muslims, the followers of Islam. Paul makes this point abundantly clear in Gal 4. They desolate (they are many) are the Sons of Ishmael, the Son of Hagar, the Egyptian. They are desolate, they are barren, they have no husband and they will be consumed with fire when judgment is passed on them.

Daniel tells us the King from the North places the A of D. Those to the north of Israel are Muslims. Therefore the Abomination is NOT from the Romans and had nothing to do with the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

The Great Tribulation appears to be aimed at Israeli Jews initially then when the WOMAN (Israel) is protected, the Dragon (Satan) makes war with the rest of her offspring - us as we see in Rev 12:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This would be Christians. Only Christians have the testimony of Jesus.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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The announcements that come after trumpets 5 & 6 demonstrates that the trumpets are in chronological order, meaning that the fifth trumpet/1st woe is sounded, followed by the sixth trumpet/2nd woe, which is then followed by the seventh trumpet/3rd woe.
So, Satan's wrath is the same as God's Wrath???
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Show me the passage that tells us that all of the seals, trumps and bowls take place within 7 years.
Here is your proof:

"Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' (Mt.24:29)

"I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind." (Rev.6:12-13)

The two scriptures above, the first being from Mt.24:29 and the second being from Rev.6:12, are referring to the same event. In Matt.24:15 regarding the signs leading up to his coming, Jesus says the following:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak."

As Jesus continues to go through the signs leading up to his return to the earth to end the age, he makes reference to the abomination that causes desolation, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of the seven years. Keeping that in mind, as Jesus continues with the order of events, he then refers to the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling from heaven to the earth. This event in Matt.24:29 is synonymous with the sixth seal described in Rev.6:12-13. All that being said, Jesus' reference to the abomination puts the event in the middle of the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy, which is followed by his mentioning of the sixth seal, which is mentioned after the event of the abomination being set up, which demonstrates that these events take place within that last seven years.

That last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed, is what sets the stage for God's wrath and the fulfillment of that prophecy regarding the people of Israel and Jerusalem, which begins with the first seal, which is when that ruler, that antichrist, makes his covenant with many for seven years, which is then following by the rest of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments, with the Lord returning sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out.

My oh my. Where does it say that a 7 year pact was made with Israel??? Again, it doesn't say that
To answer your question, here is the scripture in Dan.9:27:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP]i[/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

When the ruler makes that covenant with many for seven years, the scripture then says that in the middle of the seven, that ruler would cause the sacrifice and offerings to cease and on a wing of the temple (the holy place) will set up the abomination of that causes the desolation. The proof is that, the decree of seventy seven year periods was given to the people of Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24). The next proof is that, the scripture states that the ruler who made the covenant causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease, which could only be referring to the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will begin to make after the making of that seven year covenant. And the third proof is the fact that, the abomination is being set up in the holy place within the temple, which again could only be referring to Israel. Therefore, regarding the reference to the covenant made with "many," Israel is apart of that many and Islam/Palestine will probably be apart of the many as well.

To interpret scripture, it is important to pay attention to the details of the context.
 

DP

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Hello Plainword,

What you are not understanding is that God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal, which is the revealing of the antichrist. He is the one who is depicted as the rider on the white horse. The entire seven years is the fulfillment of the day of the Lord which is carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Even the events that are carried out by the beast and the false prophet are apart of God's wrath and run parallel to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If you don't believe that, it is God who puts it into the hearts of the beast and the ten kings to hate the woman, Mystery Babylon and destroying her and by doing so, will be fulfilling God's will.

It is this attempt to divide tribulation from God's wrath that is the problem. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are God's fulfillment of the long prophesied "Day of the Lord." This unprecedented out-pouring of God's wrath upon the entire earth is meant to decimate the population of the world (Zeph.1, Isa.13:12, Dan.2:31-45) and to dismantle all human government in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom on earth. That is what is soon to come. But before that first seal is opened our Lord will appear and will gather into the air, the dead and living who belong to him to take us back to the Father's house. Then God's wrath will be poured out laying waste to the earth and its inhabitants. Stop attempting to separate tribulation from God's wrath, for they take place during the same time frame. The church must be removed before the Lamb opens the first seal.
But what you are not understanding is that God's cup of indignation upon the WICKED is the specific WRATH Apostle Paul was talking about in the 1 Thess.5 chapter which the Pre-trib Rapture theologists get wrong.

The "sudden destruction" Paul mentioned in that 1 Thess.5 chapter comes upon the deceived there he said will be saying, "Peace and safety".

The events on the 1st to 6th vials are about the plagues done through God's two witnesses in Jerusalem during the tribulation. That is NOT upon those in Christ Jesus either. It's upon the beast and those following it, and they will STILL be saying "Peace and safety" in that time!

But ONLY on the last day will God's appointed cup of indignation be poured out upon the wicked when He gathers the wicked to come up against Jerusalem on that final day (Zeph.3:8). THAT is the specific WRATH Paul was saying we are not appointed to, when he was talking about that "sudden destruction" of that chapter.

 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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"Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' (Mt.24:29)

"I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind." (Rev.6:12-13)
You proved that the Sixth Seal happens after the Tribulation as I already pointed out by comparing Rev 6:12-17 to Mat 24:28-31.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened...

How can you possibly be thinking the Tribulation is still going on????? Do you have a different understanding of the word, "AFTER" then the rest of us have? "AFTER" means the tribulation is over, now comes the Wrath of the Lamb.

The two scriptures above, the first being from Mt.24:29 and the second being from Rev.6:12, are referring to the same event
EXACTLY!!

In Matt.24:15 regarding the signs leading up to his coming, Jesus says the following:
Actually the signs leading up to His coming are given in Mat 24:29.

Mat 24:15 is the sign that the Israel is to be invaded.

As Jesus continues to go through the signs leading up to his return to the earth to end the age, he makes reference to the abomination that causes desolation, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of the seven years.
Actually you will not find the phrase, "Abomination of Desolation" mentioned in Dan 9. It appears only in Dan 11 and 12.

All that being said, Jesus' reference to the abomination puts the event in the middle of the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy, which is followed by his mentioning of the sixth seal, which is mentioned after the event of the abomination being set up, which demonstrates that these events take place within that last seven years.
You lost me. The Tribulation is over before the signs of Jesus' return are mentioned.

That last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed, is what sets the stage for God's wrath and the fulfillment of that prophecy regarding the people of Israel and Jerusalem, which begins with the first seal, which is when that ruler, that antichrist, makes his covenant with many for seven years,
Your logic is faulty. What you are saying is not taught. The first seal has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week.

with the Lord returning sometime after the seventh bowl has been poured out.
The Lord actually returns at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th Bowl. 7-7-7. It is done. Divine Completeness.

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’[SUP]i[/SUP] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
What makes you think "Many" is the same as "Israel."

the scripture then says that in the middle of the seven, that ruler would cause the sacrifice and offerings to cease and on a wing of the temple (the holy place) will set up the abomination of that causes the desolation.
What translation are you using? Maybe that is the problem. I use NKJV although KJV is better.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

It's the "wing of abominations" not the wing of the temple. There is no temple and there is no prophesy of a third temple built by man in Jerusalem. Now it could happen, it just isn't foretold.

The proof is that, the decree of seventy seven year periods was given to the people of Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24). The next proof is that, the scripture states that the ruler who made the covenant causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease, which could only be referring to the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will begin to make after the making of that seven year covenant.
You assume too much.

And the third proof is the fact that, the abomination is being set up in the holy place within the temple
We don't have a passage that tells us the A of D is set up in a third Jewish temple. This is an assumption.

To interpret scripture, it is important to pay attention to the details of the context.
Exactly. This is something you should try doing more since you confuse the Tribulation with God's Wrath.
 
P

popeye

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Oh im sorry. I thought 1Thes.4 {13-18} was to you a pretrib verse. Is it, or isnt it?
Yes.

They all are.

There are no postrib rapture verses.
 
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popeye

Guest
Hey Popeye. Married life is great. The Lord has truly blessed me with an amazing wife. I hope you and yours have a wonderful and bless Christmas and incredible 2016.
Thanks PW

Is she pretrib rapture??? LOL
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.



1 Corinthians 15:55-57 [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; [SUP]57 [/SUP]but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-15 [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

2 Tim 1:8-11 [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.


I will also point out at this time that the New Jerusalem at the end of Revelation is The Church, the New Kingdom, that anyone can enter if they accept Jesus Christ (that is, to truly accept Jesus - not just recite a phrase(s)).

The whore of Revelation 17 is the old, physical city of Jerusalem. If you don't believe me, read the OT - God constantly refers to Israel and Judah as harlots throughout the last half of the OT.
No, the OT says, they "PLAYED" the Harlot and followed after the gods of those around them or those who captured them. At no time was the Jewish religion called a Harlot.

Exodus 34:16
and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the Harlot with their gods and make your sons play the harlot with their gods.

Ezekiel 16:28
Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

The gods are actually other people's gods.