Hyper grace
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Well maybe you could help me out then. I can't find where it says Christ is grace. It says grace came into being through Christ, and that Christ was full of grace. Surely the latter one doesn't mean he was full of himself, because he emptied himself.
Surely there's a verse I'm missing and you can help me out.
Surely there's a verse I'm missing and you can help me out.
F
Thats right. For Paul, grace was not an impersonal force detached from the living Lord Jesus, or merely a kind disposition of God's unmerited favor toward sinners. For Paul grace is the personal and divine action of God in the Person of Jesus Christ, the dynamic activity of the risen Lord Jesus in the form of the Spirit of Christ functioning to be all and do all in us.
Unfortunately this is just a lie.
Jesus is the word of God, the message of God to man about sin, and salvation, righteousness, justice and judgement.
It is always possible to hear preachers form an idea in your mind and project it on everything so it appears everywhere yet it actually is no where. That is called brain washing.
The simplest solution to this is take any phrase and go through all the possible meanings.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
God intended good for the world, he wanted a solution to the problem in mankind.
The solution was his son.
Access to this solution is through belief or trust in him, you will not die or be destroyed, but have eternal life.
Belief in someone is trust he knows what he is doing, you will follow and do what he tells you to do.
Belief is also believing God sent Him as the solution. Part of belief is putting the solution as the highest priority to avoid perishing and to gain eternal life.
Belief is also a faith that the person will be able to achieve the very thing they are meant to solve.
Perishing is death, which is the fruit of sin. Eternal life is the gift given to the righteous. So Jesus will turn us from sinners into righteous people, not just figuratively but literally. There is no definition of when and how.
Now that for me is trying to define the meanings behind the words, to see what they could mean or not mean.
There is nothing about grace here only belief in, which implies listening to and obeying their commands.
If I have belief in the fire officer I will do what he says to be saved from a burning building. I will not argue or debate just obey, because that is their job and they provide the solution.
So when Jesus says His friends obey His commands, that is our obedience and sin we are His friends when we do exactly that. This is working out our salvation in fear and trembling just as Paul exhorts us to do.
Jesus is the word of God, the message of God to man about sin, and salvation, righteousness, justice and judgement.
It is always possible to hear preachers form an idea in your mind and project it on everything so it appears everywhere yet it actually is no where. That is called brain washing.
The simplest solution to this is take any phrase and go through all the possible meanings.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
God intended good for the world, he wanted a solution to the problem in mankind.
The solution was his son.
Access to this solution is through belief or trust in him, you will not die or be destroyed, but have eternal life.
Belief in someone is trust he knows what he is doing, you will follow and do what he tells you to do.
Belief is also believing God sent Him as the solution. Part of belief is putting the solution as the highest priority to avoid perishing and to gain eternal life.
Belief is also a faith that the person will be able to achieve the very thing they are meant to solve.
Perishing is death, which is the fruit of sin. Eternal life is the gift given to the righteous. So Jesus will turn us from sinners into righteous people, not just figuratively but literally. There is no definition of when and how.
Now that for me is trying to define the meanings behind the words, to see what they could mean or not mean.
There is nothing about grace here only belief in, which implies listening to and obeying their commands.
If I have belief in the fire officer I will do what he says to be saved from a burning building. I will not argue or debate just obey, because that is their job and they provide the solution.
So when Jesus says His friends obey His commands, that is our obedience and sin we are His friends when we do exactly that. This is working out our salvation in fear and trembling just as Paul exhorts us to do.
Dear readers,
Jesus came because of Gods love for us. It is because of grace, the forbearance to not judge sin but bring light to peoples souls so they might have opportunity to repent before judgement falls.
Jonah and nineveh. Jonah preached a warning of judgement.
"Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." Jonah 1:1
"Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
Jonah 3:4
The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
Jonah 3:5
Jesus said the pharisees would only be given the sign of Jonah to show his authority.
Nineveh was not judged because they repented.
We have a greater prophet than Jonah, and a greater message of salvation, not just avoiding judgement, but the model of repentance is still the same, and obedience.
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6
"Once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"
Heb 5:9
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
Rom 6:17
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.1 John 5:18
Now many people have a problem with self condemnation and a lack of boundaries so they blame themselves for things that are not sin and do not know why or how they do things. Though walking in Jesus appears to be religious it is also founded in good psychological health and well being. The answer is not just in religious words or the bible, but in putting love into practice.
We all need the best help we can get, and it is not just in prayer and praise but also in sharing and being part of the body, no matter how painful at first this might appear.
Jesus came because of Gods love for us. It is because of grace, the forbearance to not judge sin but bring light to peoples souls so they might have opportunity to repent before judgement falls.
Jonah and nineveh. Jonah preached a warning of judgement.
"Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me." Jonah 1:1
"Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
Jonah 3:4
The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
Jonah 3:5
Jesus said the pharisees would only be given the sign of Jonah to show his authority.
Nineveh was not judged because they repented.
We have a greater prophet than Jonah, and a greater message of salvation, not just avoiding judgement, but the model of repentance is still the same, and obedience.
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6
"Once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"
Heb 5:9
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
Rom 6:17
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.1 John 5:18
Now many people have a problem with self condemnation and a lack of boundaries so they blame themselves for things that are not sin and do not know why or how they do things. Though walking in Jesus appears to be religious it is also founded in good psychological health and well being. The answer is not just in religious words or the bible, but in putting love into practice.
We all need the best help we can get, and it is not just in prayer and praise but also in sharing and being part of the body, no matter how painful at first this might appear.
E
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Pauls view of grace.
Trying to relate to God through rules, and laws, always brought fear. We see God as the judge who will reign down wrath on all those ho disobey him.
Our reaction is religion.
1. Water down rules so we can feel better about ourselves
2. Compare ourselves to the world. were we feel better about ourselves (a am not like the sinner)
3. Hang our with people who have the same pet sin, so we can all hide that sin (alot of groups start this way)
4. relate to god as a standoffish God. who you must be clean before you can enter his presence. you relate with religion ceremony, rules, and the things you do to honor him thinking he will honor you back for it (bless you)
5 Teach eternal life is just a religeous term, it is a thing That God can givem and take away whenever he wants, it is not eternal, It was paid for by him, but only if you meet some standard, if you fall below this standard (whatever that standard may be, different churches teach different standards) then you will get to heaven, if not, you wil not get to heaven, Thus, although they deny it, Salvation is a works based earned reward, and not a grace gift.
Paul owever teaches us, God want to be our abba, a term of endearment in hebrew, an english term we can relate to is, God wants to be our daddy (I know, I Know most legalism cringe at this)
we can Go to God with no fear. No matter what we have done, Yes, We may be punished when we confess, Be it a spanking, or being asked to sit in the corner, or even being grounded until we take care of our problem. But we know he still loves us as a father, and have NO FEAR he will ever kick us out.
We learn to obey hum, because we trust him, It is alot easier to obey a father you trust, than a father who is a dictator. where you do not have to water down the fathers rules, hide the sin from the father and your brothers, and live in fear that one wrong move and your salvation is lost..
Thats not the God paul taught,
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Pauls view of grace.
Trying to relate to God through rules, and laws, always brought fear. We see God as the judge who will reign down wrath on all those ho disobey him.
Our reaction is religion.
1. Water down rules so we can feel better about ourselves
2. Compare ourselves to the world. were we feel better about ourselves (a am not like the sinner)
3. Hang our with people who have the same pet sin, so we can all hide that sin (alot of groups start this way)
4. relate to god as a standoffish God. who you must be clean before you can enter his presence. you relate with religion ceremony, rules, and the things you do to honor him thinking he will honor you back for it (bless you)
5 Teach eternal life is just a religeous term, it is a thing That God can givem and take away whenever he wants, it is not eternal, It was paid for by him, but only if you meet some standard, if you fall below this standard (whatever that standard may be, different churches teach different standards) then you will get to heaven, if not, you wil not get to heaven, Thus, although they deny it, Salvation is a works based earned reward, and not a grace gift.
Paul owever teaches us, God want to be our abba, a term of endearment in hebrew, an english term we can relate to is, God wants to be our daddy (I know, I Know most legalism cringe at this)
we can Go to God with no fear. No matter what we have done, Yes, We may be punished when we confess, Be it a spanking, or being asked to sit in the corner, or even being grounded until we take care of our problem. But we know he still loves us as a father, and have NO FEAR he will ever kick us out.
We learn to obey hum, because we trust him, It is alot easier to obey a father you trust, than a father who is a dictator. where you do not have to water down the fathers rules, hide the sin from the father and your brothers, and live in fear that one wrong move and your salvation is lost..
Thats not the God paul taught,
F
"Grace is realized through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); the "grace of God was given to us in Christ Jesus” (1 Cor. 1:4); "The grace of God has appeared (in Jesus Christ), bringing salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11). We have an identity as Christians, participating in the resurrection-life of Jesus, only by the grace of God (1 Cor. 15:10). The new covenant concept of grace is entirely new. In the minds of the NT writers grace and Jesus Christ are synonymous.
I suspect that we're seeing here is an expression of a neo-gnostic spirit in New Grace (NG) beliefs. I call it New Grace because that is what its adherents call it, rather than Hyper-Grace which is what those who oppose it call it.
Christ emptied himself, and the fullness of GOD's grace dwelt within him. But Christ himself wasn't that grace.
Paul said that we are becoming the righteousness of GOD in Christ, but NG believers claim they have already become the righteousness of GOD in Christ. The former requires grace as a means to perfection; the latter is perfection itself. This is strikingly similar to Irenaeus' description of the gnostic belief in his day that gnostics were "the spiritual and perfect" because they had received a superior (hyper?) grace as a possession through a mysterious special union with grace (Christ personified?)
This belief that one is already perfect, and that perfection cannot be taken away no matter what is practiced, obviates the need to lead a holy life, regardless of any lip service paid to such.
This belief is toxic and leads to all kinds of lawlessness, as we've seen manifested in videos that show fringe elements practicing this belief. (You, Peter, might be interested in looking at this manifestation in GB by Dave Vaughan, a friend and disciple of John Crowder. Here they are together doing New Grace communion > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCPIHZHlp8I , and here are Vaughan's videos > https://www.youtube.com/user/TheNewEcstatics7)
Here's Irenaeus again describing this belief of the gnostics.
The last sentence is similar to a statement made by Martin Luther, whom New Grace believers like to compare themselves to, marketing themselves as religious reformers.
Christ emptied himself, and the fullness of GOD's grace dwelt within him. But Christ himself wasn't that grace.
Paul said that we are becoming the righteousness of GOD in Christ, but NG believers claim they have already become the righteousness of GOD in Christ. The former requires grace as a means to perfection; the latter is perfection itself. This is strikingly similar to Irenaeus' description of the gnostic belief in his day that gnostics were "the spiritual and perfect" because they had received a superior (hyper?) grace as a possession through a mysterious special union with grace (Christ personified?)
This belief that one is already perfect, and that perfection cannot be taken away no matter what is practiced, obviates the need to lead a holy life, regardless of any lip service paid to such.
This belief is toxic and leads to all kinds of lawlessness, as we've seen manifested in videos that show fringe elements practicing this belief. (You, Peter, might be interested in looking at this manifestation in GB by Dave Vaughan, a friend and disciple of John Crowder. Here they are together doing New Grace communion > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCPIHZHlp8I , and here are Vaughan's videos > https://www.youtube.com/user/TheNewEcstatics7)
Here's Irenaeus again describing this belief of the gnostics.
The last sentence is similar to a statement made by Martin Luther, whom New Grace believers like to compare themselves to, marketing themselves as religious reformers.
I liked the video where it looked like they were drunk...lol
I wonder if something similar happened in Acts 2?
Media alert...drunk apostles start new church!!!..see Acts chapter 2..it is horrid! God would never do this type of stuff...
Acts 2:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Acts 2:15-17 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
I wonder if something similar happened in Acts 2?
Media alert...drunk apostles start new church!!!..see Acts chapter 2..it is horrid! God would never do this type of stuff...
Acts 2:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Acts 2:15-17 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
I believe there will always be excesses but when we try to think with our natural minds what should God do or not do....that's when we are thinking we know what God should do...and if things happen differently then what I believe....they are heretics or whatever derogatory name you come up with.
Sometimes a lot of "manifestations" are just their flesh reacting to the Spirit on them.When we get to heaven..the Holy Spirit will not be jerking and falling down all the time...but here on this earth that is just our flesh coming into contact with the supernatural and something gives....and it will always be our flesh....selah
The bible is full of times when people fell down from contact with the Spirit of God. Is there people that over-react?..Yes..of course. Are they any worse then those that reject the power of God in manifestation?..no..just different...
I think what is worse then condemning how someone reacted in the flesh to God..is nothing compared to those that "slander" these people in the Body of Christ that our Lord gave His life and shed His blood for.
Just my thoughts on the subject....
Sometimes a lot of "manifestations" are just their flesh reacting to the Spirit on them.When we get to heaven..the Holy Spirit will not be jerking and falling down all the time...but here on this earth that is just our flesh coming into contact with the supernatural and something gives....and it will always be our flesh....selah
The bible is full of times when people fell down from contact with the Spirit of God. Is there people that over-react?..Yes..of course. Are they any worse then those that reject the power of God in manifestation?..no..just different...
I think what is worse then condemning how someone reacted in the flesh to God..is nothing compared to those that "slander" these people in the Body of Christ that our Lord gave His life and shed His blood for.
Just my thoughts on the subject....
To help you grasp this distinction, I want to draw twelve lines between healthy and unhealthy confession.
1. Unhealthy confession is an admission of my badness, but healthy confession is a declaration of my trust in God’s goodness (Ps 145:4-7).
2. Unhealthy confession emphasizes leaves me focused on my needs, my weaknesses, and my shortcomings; healthy confession connects my need with God’s grace, his strength and his limitless provision (Php 4:19, 2 Cor 12:9).
3. Unhealthy confession puts the focus on me and what I have or haven’t done, but healthy confession puts the focus on Christ and what he has done for me (Rom 10:9-13).
4. Unhealthy confession requires no faith at all and so doesn’t please the Lord (Heb 11:6), but healthy confession is an expression of the faith in my heart (Rom 10:8). Indeed, healthy confession stirs my faith (Rom 10:17).
5. Unhealthy confession is based on the hope that I can convince God to do something or give me something to make things better; healthy confession is based on the good news that God has already given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us (2 Pet 1:3).
6. Unhealthy confession is begging God to forgive me; healthy confession is only possible when I know he already has (2 Pet 1:5-9).
7. Unhealthy confession is begging God to bless me; healthy confession is thanking God that in Christ I am already the beneficiary of every blessing there is (Eph 1:3).
8. Unhealthy confession perpetuates a cycle of Adamic self-reliance and death (Gal 6:7-8); healthy confession empowers me to walk in newness of life (Acts 13:46).
9. Unhealthy confession is hedged with excuses, finger-pointing, and blame (see Gen 3:12); healthy confession is an honest admission of failure or need underwritten by a radical reliance on God’s grace (see Ps 51:1).
10. Unhealthy confession is motivated by a perceived need to restore relationship with God; healthy confession is only possible when I am secure in his promise that he will never leave nor forsake me (Heb 13:5).
11. Unhealthy confession always follows sin but healthy confession often preempts it. By being honest about my weaknesses and vulnerabilities I position myself to receive the grace that empowers me to say “No” to ungodliness (Jas 4:6).
12. Unhealthy confession is agreeing with the Accuser that I am still a miserable sinner (“look at what you did!”); healthy confession is agreeing with the Holy Spirit that I am still a saint despite what I did(Joh 16:10).
In this life you will make many messes. Confessing-to-be-forgiven or to otherwise manage the sin in your life is like trying to clean house with a filthy mop. You’ll be busy but you won’t make any difference. If anything, you’ll make things worse by adding self-righteous unbelief to your pile of sins.
True confession is freely acknowledging your total dependence on God’s grace – grace for salvation, sanctification, and every other thing. True confession is faith put into words. True confession is relying on the One who cleanses you from all unrighteousness.
Bad confession, such as religion teaches it, seems right to man but ultimately leads to death. Good confession leads to life and godliness.
1. Unhealthy confession is an admission of my badness, but healthy confession is a declaration of my trust in God’s goodness (Ps 145:4-7).
2. Unhealthy confession emphasizes leaves me focused on my needs, my weaknesses, and my shortcomings; healthy confession connects my need with God’s grace, his strength and his limitless provision (Php 4:19, 2 Cor 12:9).
3. Unhealthy confession puts the focus on me and what I have or haven’t done, but healthy confession puts the focus on Christ and what he has done for me (Rom 10:9-13).
4. Unhealthy confession requires no faith at all and so doesn’t please the Lord (Heb 11:6), but healthy confession is an expression of the faith in my heart (Rom 10:8). Indeed, healthy confession stirs my faith (Rom 10:17).
5. Unhealthy confession is based on the hope that I can convince God to do something or give me something to make things better; healthy confession is based on the good news that God has already given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us (2 Pet 1:3).
6. Unhealthy confession is begging God to forgive me; healthy confession is only possible when I know he already has (2 Pet 1:5-9).
7. Unhealthy confession is begging God to bless me; healthy confession is thanking God that in Christ I am already the beneficiary of every blessing there is (Eph 1:3).
8. Unhealthy confession perpetuates a cycle of Adamic self-reliance and death (Gal 6:7-8); healthy confession empowers me to walk in newness of life (Acts 13:46).
9. Unhealthy confession is hedged with excuses, finger-pointing, and blame (see Gen 3:12); healthy confession is an honest admission of failure or need underwritten by a radical reliance on God’s grace (see Ps 51:1).
10. Unhealthy confession is motivated by a perceived need to restore relationship with God; healthy confession is only possible when I am secure in his promise that he will never leave nor forsake me (Heb 13:5).
11. Unhealthy confession always follows sin but healthy confession often preempts it. By being honest about my weaknesses and vulnerabilities I position myself to receive the grace that empowers me to say “No” to ungodliness (Jas 4:6).
12. Unhealthy confession is agreeing with the Accuser that I am still a miserable sinner (“look at what you did!”); healthy confession is agreeing with the Holy Spirit that I am still a saint despite what I did(Joh 16:10).
In this life you will make many messes. Confessing-to-be-forgiven or to otherwise manage the sin in your life is like trying to clean house with a filthy mop. You’ll be busy but you won’t make any difference. If anything, you’ll make things worse by adding self-righteous unbelief to your pile of sins.
True confession is freely acknowledging your total dependence on God’s grace – grace for salvation, sanctification, and every other thing. True confession is faith put into words. True confession is relying on the One who cleanses you from all unrighteousness.
Bad confession, such as religion teaches it, seems right to man but ultimately leads to death. Good confession leads to life and godliness.
I believe there will always be excesses but when we try to think with our natural minds what should God do or not do....that's when we are thinking we know what God should do...and if things happen differently then what I believe....they are heretics or whatever derogatory name you come up with.
Sometimes a lot of "manifestations" are just their flesh reacting to the Spirit on them.When we get to heaven..the Holy Spirit will not be jerking and falling down all the time...but here on this earth that is just our flesh coming into contact with the supernatural and something gives....and it will always be our flesh....selah
The bible is full of times when people fell down from contact with the Spirit of God. Is there people that over-react?..Yes..of course. Are they any worse then those that reject the power of God in manifestation?..no..just different...
I think what is worse then condemning how someone reacted in the flesh to God..is nothing compared to those that "slander" these people in the Body of Christ that our Lord gave His life and shed His blood for.
Just my thoughts on the subject....
Sometimes a lot of "manifestations" are just their flesh reacting to the Spirit on them.When we get to heaven..the Holy Spirit will not be jerking and falling down all the time...but here on this earth that is just our flesh coming into contact with the supernatural and something gives....and it will always be our flesh....selah
The bible is full of times when people fell down from contact with the Spirit of God. Is there people that over-react?..Yes..of course. Are they any worse then those that reject the power of God in manifestation?..no..just different...
I think what is worse then condemning how someone reacted in the flesh to God..is nothing compared to those that "slander" these people in the Body of Christ that our Lord gave His life and shed His blood for.
Just my thoughts on the subject....
These are the ways the flesh reacts to the holy spirit.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things [there] is no law. Galatians 5:22-23