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I am not looking for a hypothetical situation. Do you have Scripture to say we would be like Jesus without Him? I mean, there are Scriptures galore attesting to the fact that all life is found in Him, and zero to say we are immortal if we are without sin. We are granted eternal life to be found in Him.
Looking at the prosperity gospel churchs I would suggest this has not worked, in fact the opposite is in place.
If you say there is no law, everything Jesus said is old covenant and you can do what you like, as long as your heart says it is ok, you have just given up everything.
Some in your camp have said any condemnation of sin is of the devil, so if your conscience says what you are doing is wrong you are not being spiritual and walking in freedom of the Spirit.
This is a very different gospel than Jesus's gospel and you are close to being a licencious heretic.
If you say there is no law, everything Jesus said is old covenant and you can do what you like, as long as your heart says it is ok, you have just given up everything.
Some in your camp have said any condemnation of sin is of the devil, so if your conscience says what you are doing is wrong you are not being spiritual and walking in freedom of the Spirit.
This is a very different gospel than Jesus's gospel and you are close to being a licencious heretic.
I don't know if there's any scriptures, but it's fairly obvious to my brain, that if we were without sin, we would live forever, because like I said before, no sin= no death. If A&E hadn't disobeyed God, they would have lived forever, blissfully unaware of what sin was. BUT as soon as they ate the fruit, they realized their sin. They realized they were butt naked. They did NOT have this realization of sin until AFTERWARDS. They sinned, were cursed, and now the rest of us bear that sin curse to this day..
The wording of the poll is not clear imo. Maybe that was intended but it only led to another law vs grace thread in which I have tired of. It breeds division.
Lets start out with phil 4:8; focus on the good.
Ill assume dalconn is asking what my identity is as of the moment I fully surrendered to my Lord and Savior!!
Christ has told who us who we are in Him. We are saints . We are a NEW creation. The world is referred to as sinners. Yes, we do sin at times! We are not yet glorified. Scripture tells us we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us if we claim we HAVE NO sin. 1john1:8
But...........>>> I am a SAINT!!!
Eph. 1:1 I am a saint. 1 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2
If we think of ourselves as sinners we may have the propensity to act like sinners. If we can grasp our new identity that we are saints> heirs to the thrown> realize we are saints, wont we be more inclined to act like saints?
Col. 2:12, 13 I have been buried( sinner is buried), raised, and made alive with Christ.
Praise the Lord! We are a new creation!
Col. 3:4 I am an expression of the life of Christ because He is my life.
Col. 3:12 I am chosen of God, holy, and dearly loved.
1 Thes. 1:4 I am chosen and dearly loved by God.
1 Thes. 5:5 I am son of light and not of darkness.
Heb. 3:1 I am a holy brother, partaker of a heavenly calling.
Heb. 3:14 I am a partaker of Christ … I share in His life.
I am NOW a saint whereas before regeneration I was identified as a sinner.
Thank you Lord because I do not deserve any of it.
Grace is a beautiful thing and my faith in HIS grace has rendered me a saint
Lets start out with phil 4:8; focus on the good.
Ill assume dalconn is asking what my identity is as of the moment I fully surrendered to my Lord and Savior!!
Christ has told who us who we are in Him. We are saints . We are a NEW creation. The world is referred to as sinners. Yes, we do sin at times! We are not yet glorified. Scripture tells us we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us if we claim we HAVE NO sin. 1john1:8
But...........>>> I am a SAINT!!!
Eph. 1:1 I am a saint. 1 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2
If we think of ourselves as sinners we may have the propensity to act like sinners. If we can grasp our new identity that we are saints> heirs to the thrown> realize we are saints, wont we be more inclined to act like saints?
Col. 2:12, 13 I have been buried( sinner is buried), raised, and made alive with Christ.
Praise the Lord! We are a new creation!
Col. 3:4 I am an expression of the life of Christ because He is my life.
Col. 3:12 I am chosen of God, holy, and dearly loved.
1 Thes. 1:4 I am chosen and dearly loved by God.
1 Thes. 5:5 I am son of light and not of darkness.
Heb. 3:1 I am a holy brother, partaker of a heavenly calling.
Heb. 3:14 I am a partaker of Christ … I share in His life.
I am NOW a saint whereas before regeneration I was identified as a sinner.
Thank you Lord because I do not deserve any of it.
Grace is a beautiful thing and my faith in HIS grace has rendered me a saint
Paul does, he says I persecuteD the church not I am persecuting the church. And in many of his letters he explains that he is now living for Christ. You can see in the Scriptures that it says that Christ can save you. It doesn't say anything about being a sinner as a Christian as an example for us. That's ridiculous.
Let's break out Romans 7:
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Who's under the Law? Jews. Okay so Paul says here that we are under bondage to sin, but earlier he said...
Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Is Paul having amnesia?? Or maybe he's not referring to himself, but as himself before Christ! Let's find out!
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Okay so now Paul calls himself wretched and not a saint, interesting. Who will set me free? Interesting, but Paul you're saved you've already been set free! Did you forget when you said this?
2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
And what do you mean you're serving the law of God? I thought you served the Spirit? What's going on here Paul!
Did you just say your FLESH is serving sin? Did you forget when you said this?
Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Paul must really be struggling because he tells us to not let sin reign in our body, nor to let our body serve sin, or to let sin master us! And that we are not under the law, but grace!
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Hmm, I wonder if the NEXT VERSE will shed any light on this?
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Anytime Scripture says therefore you gotta wonder what he said before it...
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Uh oh Paul is taking crazy again here 2 verses later saying I'm free from sin and death!
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Oh there's the Law again, and what it couldn't do, because of the flesh (that evil thing that has no good in it) God DID. What a minute did Paul just say DID and not doing or will do?
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Whoa! It looks like he's explaining Romans 7 right here! And yes I see that not walking according to the flesh... We'll get there in a few verses...
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
And here comes the big climax of Paul's argument. He says hey you can't please God in the flesh. So get out of the flesh people! And they are thinking how PAUL how do I get out of the flesh? Paul tells them how...
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
You are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Your hostile mind? Oh yeah He gave you a new one....
1 Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
C.
Let's break out Romans 7:
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Who's under the Law? Jews. Okay so Paul says here that we are under bondage to sin, but earlier he said...
Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Is Paul having amnesia?? Or maybe he's not referring to himself, but as himself before Christ! Let's find out!
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Okay so now Paul calls himself wretched and not a saint, interesting. Who will set me free? Interesting, but Paul you're saved you've already been set free! Did you forget when you said this?
2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
And what do you mean you're serving the law of God? I thought you served the Spirit? What's going on here Paul!
Did you just say your FLESH is serving sin? Did you forget when you said this?
Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Paul must really be struggling because he tells us to not let sin reign in our body, nor to let our body serve sin, or to let sin master us! And that we are not under the law, but grace!
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Hmm, I wonder if the NEXT VERSE will shed any light on this?
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Anytime Scripture says therefore you gotta wonder what he said before it...
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Uh oh Paul is taking crazy again here 2 verses later saying I'm free from sin and death!
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Oh there's the Law again, and what it couldn't do, because of the flesh (that evil thing that has no good in it) God DID. What a minute did Paul just say DID and not doing or will do?
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Whoa! It looks like he's explaining Romans 7 right here! And yes I see that not walking according to the flesh... We'll get there in a few verses...
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
And here comes the big climax of Paul's argument. He says hey you can't please God in the flesh. So get out of the flesh people! And they are thinking how PAUL how do I get out of the flesh? Paul tells them how...
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
You are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Your hostile mind? Oh yeah He gave you a new one....
1 Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
C.
People make a simple mistake. Adam and Eve where mortal and did not know the knowledge of good and evil.
The reason why God threw them out of the garden was to stop them living forever and eating of the tree of life.
Satan appears to be immortal, and will burn in Hell forever, tortured for his rebellion.
When God said to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge would kill them, he meant break the relationship between them and God, but they did not understand this would happen and as a result they would die spiritually.
The reason why God threw them out of the garden was to stop them living forever and eating of the tree of life.
Satan appears to be immortal, and will burn in Hell forever, tortured for his rebellion.
When God said to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge would kill them, he meant break the relationship between them and God, but they did not understand this would happen and as a result they would die spiritually.
You mean like Paul?
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Or like John?
1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
But wait what about if people are WRONG?
Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
You think preaching more rules will help people walk in freedom? That just doesn't make sense. Paul taught freedom to the point that he had to say this...
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Paul what are you doing! This was the perfect time to use fear to cause them to not sin! To tell them they will burn in a fiery furnace even though God says they are His children! Actually Paul is referring to their identity... How can we who "died to sin" still live in it? Hopefully you see how important the reality we are dead to sin is. Paul sure thought so!
3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Paul is showing here we dead and now are reborn to walk in newness of life. No fear. Just simply that isn't who you anymore.
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[SUP]a[/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[SUP]b[/SUP] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Dead to sin? Check I've wrote on that.
Alive to God? Check I've wrote on that.
It seems that Paul believed that the work of Christ was enough. The problem is that people don't know their identity or the goodness and kindness of God. You can keep teaching rules. But if you want true from the heart transformation, you might want to do it how Paul did. God desires obedience from a cheerful heart. Crazy I know. I guess He'd have to be really amazing to actually want to do the things He says! Good thing He is.
C.
Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Or like John?
1 John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
But wait what about if people are WRONG?
Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
You think preaching more rules will help people walk in freedom? That just doesn't make sense. Paul taught freedom to the point that he had to say this...
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Paul what are you doing! This was the perfect time to use fear to cause them to not sin! To tell them they will burn in a fiery furnace even though God says they are His children! Actually Paul is referring to their identity... How can we who "died to sin" still live in it? Hopefully you see how important the reality we are dead to sin is. Paul sure thought so!
3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Paul is showing here we dead and now are reborn to walk in newness of life. No fear. Just simply that isn't who you anymore.
5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self[SUP]a[/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[SUP]b[/SUP] from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Dead to sin? Check I've wrote on that.
Alive to God? Check I've wrote on that.
It seems that Paul believed that the work of Christ was enough. The problem is that people don't know their identity or the goodness and kindness of God. You can keep teaching rules. But if you want true from the heart transformation, you might want to do it how Paul did. God desires obedience from a cheerful heart. Crazy I know. I guess He'd have to be really amazing to actually want to do the things He says! Good thing He is.
C.
Here are the Scriptures that come to my mind...
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
1 Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
My thoughts are death was not God's plan. It is the last enemy to go. Adam's sin caused death to enter, so they wouldn't need to eat from the tree of life before he sinned? It's possible that this is a clue to the fact that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. So God knew that death and sin would enter so He prepared the tree of life, His Son.
C.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
1 Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
My thoughts are death was not God's plan. It is the last enemy to go. Adam's sin caused death to enter, so they wouldn't need to eat from the tree of life before he sinned? It's possible that this is a clue to the fact that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. So God knew that death and sin would enter so He prepared the tree of life, His Son.
C.