Are we sinners?

[eternally-gratefull]

Did Jesus hate the righteous?
Listening to some hear you would think Jesus is condemning righteous people.

eternally-gratefull - You are happy to condemn the righteous and put them straight.

There are non righteous no not one

There is non good but God.

So I do not know who you are talking about.

Seems you do not like being told according to the law your a wretched sinner apart from Christ.

No wonder you can not understand grace.

 

[KJV1611]

Oh yes..the flesh will always want it's way!....Christians will always sin when they yield to the flesh..but they can stop it by yielding to the spirit instead....this conflict will remain until we leave this earth!

Paul doesn't seem to recognize the sin that is in his flesh as part of him...that may cause some confusion too..

Romans 7:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


Romans 7:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

There appears to be more going on with this "sin" business in us...

I found this helped me sort things like this out..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA

Are the any verses that say sin that dwells in my flesh ever dimishes or goes away? I can't think of any.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep..He was attacking their self-righteousness..and that was something back then as there is no Christian that was as "holy' as the Pharisees were outwardly...that's why it shocked the apostles when Jesus said....Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom."

''basically showing that they need a new heart..."

I thought in Matt 23 Jesus was attacking the people they were, not trying to save them

 

[KennethC]

Oh yes..the flesh will always want it's way!....Christians will always sin when they yield to the flesh..but they can stop it by yielding to the spirit instead....this conflict will remain until we leave this earth!

Paul doesn't seem to recognize the sin that is in his flesh as part of him...that may cause some confusion too..

Romans 7:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


Romans 7:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

There appears to be more going on with this "sin" business in us...

I found this helped me sort things like this out..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA

Yet Paul states on this who can save him from this wretched way, in which he then goes into ROMANS 8 talking about now walking by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

For if he continued to walk by the flesh (carnally minded) that way leads to death, and the death he is speaking of here in the Greek is not bodily fleshly death. It is referring to eternal or spiritual death, for he state the carnal mind is enmity to God.

The carnal mind can not understand and thus can not be in subject to the ways of God, which is why the carnally minded continue to walk the same sinful ways they always have. Or as the Apostle James puts it they are deceived and compares them to a man who looks into a mirror and recognizes the wretched person they are, but as soon as they walk away forget what they have seen and return to being the same wretched person.

The change we go through is not just an internal change, or as Apostle John put it if our walk does not match the faith in Jesus then the Truth/eternal life does not abide in us.

 

[KJV1611]

Yep..He was attacking their self-righteousness..and that was something back then as there is no Christian that was as "holy' as the Pharisees were outwardly...that's why it shocked the apostles when Jesus said....Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom."

''basically showing that they need a new heart..."

I think it was showing the righteousness of Christ was greater than the righteousness of the Pharisees.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't think so..but that is a good question..I would off the cuff say..no..because "sin" is always in our flesh.

A great study is looking at spiritual circumcision and the circumcision of the flesh and spirit..the circumcision of Christ..it's like God seals our inner man of the new heart with the Holy Spirit and then "cuts" it away from our flesh...very interesting stuff..

Are the any verses that say sin that dwells in my flesh ever dimishes or goes away? I can't think of any.

 

[Grace777x70]

Me too!!!....

I think it was showing the righteousness of Christ was greater than the righteousness of the Pharisees.

 

[KennethC]

Yep..He was attacking their self-righteousness..and that was something back then as there is no Christian that was as "holy' as the Pharisees were outwardly...that's why it shocked the apostles when Jesus said....Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom."

''basically showing that they need a new heart..."

I hope you are not saying the Pharisees were holy ???

The self-righteousness that Jesus was speaking of was the self-righteousness of the Pharisees, because they misused and abused the law for self gain and recognition.

Jesus told our righteousness has to exceed theirs because self-righteousness will lead nobody to salvation through Christ, thus why Jesus called the Pharisees father the devil.

We have to walk in His righteousness and not our own, for we are to seek His ways in our lives and not our own !!!

 

[KJV1611]

I don't think so..but that is a good question..I would off the cuff say..no..because "sin" is always in our flesh.

A great study is looking at spiritual circumcision and the circumcision of the flesh and spirit..the circumcision of Christ..it's like God seals our inner man of the new heart with the Holy Spirit and then "cuts" it away from our flesh...very interesting stuff..

The details of cutting away the flesh are hidden in the beginning of Romans 7. The flesh is the husband in verse 2. That is one of the most awesome passages in the bible.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..no..they were outwardly "holy" to the on-lookers in their religion...just like today.....we can have a guy going to church and not do any so-called outward sins but still be full of deceit and self-righteousness...so, outward behavior is not necessarily indicative of things...but we as Chrstians show have good behavior..

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

I hope you are not saying the Pharisees were holy ???

The self-righteousness that Jesus was speaking of was the self-righteousness of the Pharisees, because they misused and abused the law for self gain and recognition.

Jesus told our righteousness has to exceed theirs because self-righteousness will lead nobody to salvation through Christ, thus why Jesus called the Pharisees father the devil.

We have to walk in His righteousness and not our own, for we are to seek His ways in our lives and not our own !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I always thought that was talking about us being dead to the law because we died with Christ..like in verse 4.

There are lot's of goodies still to be gleaned from the word..

I have found that understanding terms helped me sort things out.

There is a difference between "being in the flesh"..and walking "according to the flesh"

There is a difference between "sin" ( this resides in our flesh ) and "sinning" which is an action ..the doing of the lusts of sin

And there are a few more differences in other areas..it's fun stuff!!

The details of cutting away the flesh are hidden in the beginning of Romans 7. The flesh is the husband in verse 2. That is one of the most awesome passages in the bible.

 

[kathryn]

I always thought that was talking about us being dead to the law because we died with Christ..like in verse 4.
!!

That's right

 

[KJV1611]

I always thought that was talking about us being dead to the law because we died with Christ..like in verse 4.

There are lot's of goodies still to be gleaned from the word..

I have found that understanding terms helped me sort things out.

There is a difference between "being in the flesh"..and walking "according to the flesh"

There is a difference between "sin" ( this resides in our flesh ) and "sinning" which is an action ..the doing of the lusts of sin

And there are a few more differences in other areas..it's fun stuff!!

It is fun!

 

[KennethC]

LOL..no..they were outwardly "holy" to the on-lookers in their religion...just like today.....we can have a guy going to church and not do any so-called outward sins but still be full of deceit and self-righteousness...so, outward behavior is not necessarily indicative of things...but we as Chrstians show have good behavior..

1 Peter 1:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

I would agree with you to an extent as there are some pretend Christians, but as for no outward showing of sin only inward I would have to disagree because the inward always shows outwardly in one way or another.

The Pharisees had outward sin as shown by their treatment of others.

Jesus made a point that they ignored showing mercy toward others............

Just like the rich man who claimed he kept all the commandments, but Jesus showed him he actually didn't as his trust was in his possessions. Jesus told him to take his trust off what he had and place it on Him if he wanted to be perfect and get eternal life. The rich man went away sad because he could not give up what he had !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

I will tell you one thing...this thread is "attracting' a lot of them there sinners!..lol

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree..it will show outwardly in some form for sure..

I have seen true believers that loved Jesus leave the organized church because they were constantly taught " You have to stop doing that sin.."..they didn't know how or they struggled with a certain sin..they felt like a hypocrite and left the church ( not Jesus )....dismayed ..feeling like they were no good....condemned....hopeless

..this is where the grace of God comes to help these people out....

I would agree with you to an extent as there are some pretend Christians, but as for no outward showing of sin only inward I would have to disagree because the inward always shows outwardly in one way or another.

The Pharisees had outward sin as shown by their treatment of others.

Jesus made a point that they ignored showing mercy toward others............

Just like the rich man who claimed he kept all the commandments, but Jesus showed him he actually didn't as his trust was in his possessions. Jesus told him to take his trust off what he had and place it on Him if he wanted to be perfect and get eternal life. The rich man went away sad because he could not give up what he had !!!

 

[KJV1611]

That's right

We're dead to the law because our husband is dead... he's the reason we were bound to the law to start with.

 

[PeterJens]

Me too!!!....

Lets be harsh

"Why would Jesus – who nailed the law to the cross and died so that we might live free from its demands – suddenly turn around and start laying law on his church?"

When Jesus died he died to show the sin against him was forgiven. He did not stop the law or its punishment, he actually added to it with the command, "Love one another as I have loved you."

This is a command of sacrifice and hardship, becoming a servant to others, washing their feet, taking the lower place rather than the higher.

In Jesus if we walk in His ways we walk in righteousness. But all hyper-grace is preaching is walking how your conscience says is ok. Worst still if anyone finds sin, rather than confessing it and repenting, humbling oneself, dealing with the harm and walking on, it is just ignored, because it is the flesh and not the individual at all, so already forgiven.

This is just licenousness, no desire to changing or doing the right thing, but based on the idea you are already perfect you just need to walk in it. The problem is sin shows this is simply a lie. It just becomes justification for failure and an excuse to party. Only the depraved would think this is a good idea, because the damage that any sin does is being denied, and its effects talked about as irrelevant. Now this idea works in a world of nice middle class people who basically do nice stuff, but would never work among sinners or the lost.

So who are these people who preach this? People who have been in church for 10+ years and are moving out of legalism into a more relaxed view of life. They are so far removed from real life or non-religious behaviour, everything they speak is like a reformed pharisee who has just shacked up with their lover.

Funnily two leaders from my church, who left their wives, got new partners, through messy affairs, now go to these type of churches. Makes me wonder how many divorces Grace7x77 has been through already?

 

[Grace777x70]

True..I agree with you...outwardly it would show....the problem too is....what are the outward signs?..in some places it's a bun in your hair.. or not going to a movie....drinking wine....not drinking coffee....it's kinda endless!

The "inward" sins are just as sinful as the outward ones....for example....slander is just as deadly and sinful as murder...malice is just as sinful as stealing....etc.

The Lord knows us all! He is mighty to save!

I'm off to study ......you all have a great Christmas if I don't see you again! be blessed!

Merry Christmas!!!

I would agree with you to an extent as there are some pretend Christians, but as for no outward showing of sin only inward I would have to disagree because the inward always shows outwardly in one way or another.

The Pharisees had outward sin as shown by their treatment of others.

Jesus made a point that they ignored showing mercy toward others............

Just like the rich man who claimed he kept all the commandments, but Jesus showed him he actually didn't as his trust was in his possessions. Jesus told him to take his trust off what he had and place it on Him if he wanted to be perfect and get eternal life. The rich man went away sad because he could not give up what he had !!!

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

Grace7x77 has arrived and yet not. He admits he is a failure but is proud to be loved.
This is like sitting in your vomit and playing with it. Righteousness matters zero to him.

Gods words, spoken face to face with Moses, he has never read them or knows what they are.
His respect to Moses is as a glowing prophet to the worst legalist the world ever made.

Now if someone says sin is not sin, they deserve the punishment metered out to the guilty sinner. There is no place to run and hide, because the judge of all has sentenced those who commit sins to hell fire.

Now I love the sinner, because I know this is a lost saint, but I hate the sin.
Sin binds the soul, but love can set it free into righteousness. If ever I come to love the sin I am lost, and am worthy of judgement myself. It is though a thin line in knowing my impulses and appropriately responding and walking in faith.

If I abandon the fight and just say names and associations matter, I have just given up holiness for compromise and uncleanliness. This appears what I am hearing, and the power behind this is to say the newly born believer has arrived in perfection and just needs to walk in what they have obtained, not recognising the battles ahead.