Are we sinners?

[Grace777x70]

HeRose..good morning buddy!..are you all ready for Christmas?

I'm glad you mentioned the NAR, or New Apostolic Reformation. All of this New-Grace/Hyper-Grace/Modern-Grace/Emergent Church stuff has roots in it. People really need to do some research on the clowns responsible for that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello cee, it's nice to meet you.
This is a thought I struggle with.

I see sin in myself, and so it is very hard - no, it is impossible - for me to say I am not a sinner, or that I am righteous.
I struggle with these verses.

I sometimes still get angry when someone hurts my feelings by being cold and callous and unthinking to me. I know this is pride and I know it is murder and self love. I pray and tell God I see these sins in me and I can say that when I admit them instead of trying to defend myself or " my rights" for respectful treatment, just the admitting and the agreeing with what He shows me about myself, somehow causes Him to do something odd in me and I begin to love and pray for the person. Then I seem to go longer periods of time before I get angry and murder again. I walk in the Spirit, depending on Him to fix me and I stop being depressed over my failure, but instead I say, this is just who I am and it will never be fixed apart from trusting in Him to fix it.

So I have come to understand that abiding in Him just means trusting in Him to do in me what He has said He will. The moment I think I can be good apart from constant trusting in Him, I murder again.

So I see the truth of what God says, that if I trust (abide) in Him, I don't sin. But I see that this abiding is not always continual. So my problem really seems to be in the area of continual trust.

I know the verses you bring up. I just can't admit to them because when I murder, I am not righteous, I am sinning.

I know that HE is righteous and that if I abide, I don't sin. I just don't always continually abide. Sometimes I fall back into thinking I can do it. I forget how poor I am and needy and dependant I am and forget that only He can do it. And only if I admit to what He shows me I've done.

I can't say I am righteous even when I do unrighteousness by my murdering, pride, self pity and self love. To me, that would be...holding the truth in unrighteousness. Or...saying I am unrighteously righteous...

So, that's my crazy problem.

I truly believe every Christian goes through this.

The problem I think many get into is they think abiding in Christ is following his law. As long as we follow his law we are good.

As you just showed us, That is far from the truth. If we try to do it that way, We fail (that is also what Paul said so clearly in romans 7, following the law was following the flesh, and he could not do what he wanted to do when he did this.

Sadly, We all want to serve God 24/7, but we do not do it, because sadly, we still want to do things ourself.. Our pride still needs broken.

So I think we all have this, as you call it, crazy problem!!

 

[Cee]

How's that working out for you? Tell me about how the love that you force yourself to do is changing the world and the people around you... How many people have you seen set free of depression, fear, worry, anxiety, unforgiveness etc with the message you are espousing here? How many have been brought into lifestyle evangelism and being the light of the world as we are called to be?

If we were perfected beings without a sinful nature to lug around, it would be effortless. Unfortunately, we live in a fallen world with a fallen nature, and it requires our effort and the application of our will to keep ourselves set apart (holy) so that we may do the will of GOD through the power of the new nature that produces the fruit. The pernicious doctrine of Modern Grace tries to short circuit this process through a self-identity religion masquerading as faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say because you had faith (trusted in God), is not a way of saying you are justified.
Can you explain what you mean?
I thought justified meant righteous, or counted as righteous. I might have the definition wrong.
But if I have it right, trusting God IS the only thing He expects from us and IS the only way to becounted righteous\justified.

Justified is actually a legal term in the greek language which means Declared innocent, It is a term used in a court of law. where a prisoner is tried for a crime, and found not guilty. It is actually the same word we also translate righteous..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fundamentaly there is a lie here. God provided the rules. He spoke them face to face to Moses and to the people of Israel.
Jesus also laid down commandments to obey. God instituted the temple, the priests, the sacrifices.

To call this man made or wrong is to call God wrong.

To make this fundamental a mistake about the Lord shows the theology and way of thinking is not of the Lord.
No matter how well people come across, it is the Lord and His ways that matter.

Cee did not say it was man made. Here again you twist what someone said.

Paul said all these things you just spoke of were given to lead us to Christ. But after we have been led by the tutor. we are not longer under that tutor..

Religion says those things lead us to a moral goodness. (show us how to be good)

God says those things led us to Christ, where our relationship is restored. And we find the REAL way of what it take to be a morally good person.

 

[Grace777x70]

Us Christians continually mix up the covenants and thus get a mix-up theology. ( D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness )

It's actually very easy to identify the difference between the old and new covenant teachings. Just ask yourself if the teaching is putting the emphasis on what you have to do r what Jesus has already done?


Does it make you introspective, always looking to yourself and how you fared or failed? Or, does it turn your eyes from yourself to look at Jesus?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus calls us to be righteous, to walk without sin.
The problem is always between what is sin and what is the causes.
In Christ we are counted as acceptable, but not to continue in sin but to be set free.

In Christ we ARE set free.

There is no if about it. If someone is still in sin, They have not found Christ.

Your still trying to earn Gods grace. You have not found you can not earn anything..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm glad you mentioned the NAR, or New Apostolic Reformation. All of this New-Grace/Hyper-Grace/Modern-Grace/Emergent Church stuff has roots in it. People really need to do some research on the clowns responsible for that.

Or just stick with the bible. and you will not fall for silly foolishness..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are you talking about? If you're going to argue against Scripture at least use Scripture to do it. The Scripture says ALL OF THE LAW IS FULFILLED BY LOVE. Or do you not agree that Paul has the Spirit of God speaking through him?

C.

Some people are so engrossed with listening to men and what all these different people think, they lose the simplicity which is in the word.

 

[Grace777x70]

I heard a statement one time that struck true within me. Grace is so scandalous that it is only by the revelation of God that the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ can even begin to be understood.

How true...but once you see the grace of Christ and what He has done..you fall so in love with Him..It's glorious!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting because my Bible says we love because He first loved us...

Does it take effort for fruit to grow? Hmm...

C.

Actually, if we really think about it, It takes effort to rip ourselves out of the vine, not to stay attacked to the vine.

 

[Cee]

The Lord has reminded me that you can not help someone who does not believe they have a problem. I do not think this is a wise use of my time anymore. Feel free to message me if you have any questions about what I have written. Bless you all. I know I am passionate about the things I believe and have experienced, but I love each of you. I wish only the best for you all. And I pray the Holy Spirit Himself continues to lead you in all truth.

C.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How's that working out for you? Tell me about how the love that you force yourself to do is changing the world and the people around you... How many people have you seen set free of depression, fear, worry, anxiety, unforgiveness etc with the message you are espousing here? How many have been brought into lifestyle evangelism and being the light of the world as we are called to be?

What you've described is the nature of worldly Christianity that treats the symptom (depression, fear, worry, anxiety) instead of the disease, and measures success with body counts. That's why you puffed yourself up against me by glorying in what (you think) you've accomplished.

GOD came to deliver his remnant from sin and eternal death, not to improve this world, which comes to nothing.

 

[Cee]

No what I did was show you that you don't know what you're talking about... your reply right here proves it. Jesus Himself said you were the light of the world and do not fear... (just to name a few) so you can take it up with Him. I am simply asking you if you're actually making disciples of nations as He commanded us to do. Because He said false teachers will be known by their fruit, so I'm asking to inspect your fruit. Because as far as I'm concerned and what I've seen actually produce fruit it's the exact opposite of what you teach. But I actually wanted to see if you had some testimonies of what God has done through what your teaching because maybe there was fruit in it, but your reply answers my question.

C.

What you've described is the nature of worldly Christianity that treats the symptom (depression, fear, worry, anxiety) instead of the disease, and measures success with body counts. That's why you puffed yourself up against me by glorying in what (you think) you've accomplished.

GOD came to deliver his remnant from sin and eternal death, not to improve this world, which comes to nothing.

 

[Grace777x70]

That is so true! It does not matter what you say as they "read' other stuff into it and twist our words. SOme we have told over 20 times what we have said and they still say the opposite of what was told them....we need to just let them continue to attack us and not answer them in this folly....and speak to those that are hungry for growing in the Lord..

Consider staying but only dealing with those that want to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord.

I for one greatly appreciated your posts and I'm sure their are many "guest" are being taught of the Lord while watching on the side lines.

The Lord has reminded me that you can not help someone who does not believe they have a problem. I do not think this is a wise use of my time anymore. Feel free to message me if you have any questions about what I have written. Bless you all. I know I am passionate about the things I believe and have experienced, but I love each of you. I wish only the best for you all. And I pray the Holy Spirit Himself continues to lead you in all truth.

C.

 

[Grace777x70]

Cee....it really does not matter what you say..they will only twist what was said...it is a waste of time to deal with them.."shake your boots" buddy and walk on to the people that want the Lord and His righteousness and want to trust in Him only and His wonderful grace freely given to them.!

No what I did was show you that you don't know what you're talking about... your reply right here proves it. Jesus Himself said you were the light of the world and do not fear... (just to name a few) so you can take it up with Him. I am simply asking you if you're actually making disciples of nations as He commanded us to do. Because He said false teachers will be known by their fruit, so I'm asking to inspect your fruit. Because as far as I'm concerned and what I've seen actually produce fruit it's the exact opposite of what you teach. But I actually wanted to see if you had some testimonies of what God has done through what your teaching because maybe there was fruit in it, but your reply answers my question.

C.

 

[Grace777x70]

Brethren - we need to declare what God say about us because of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. It takes faith to declare you that Jesus is your righteousness and holiness in every situation in life..

 

[kathryn]

Nice to meet you Kathryn!
The way I read it is that trust in Him is what He declares righteous. The reverse of that would be that not trusting Him is unrighteousness. So when I am not trusting (abiding) in Him, but am working to "be good" instead of seeing that i CAN'T be good because there is no good IN me, I have become and am walking unrighteously.

To trust Him is harder than it first appeared to me. If I worry about my job, I am not trusting\abiding. If I worry about my retirement account taking a hit, I prove my unrighteousness because it is trust in Him and what He has said He will do that He says is counted to us as righteousness.

Righteousness is by trust\faith. But I can't say I don't sin if I plainly see I do when I become angry at someone for not showing care or respect to me.

The op asked if we are sinners after we meet God.

This is very hard to struggle with. I need more coffee and a piece of fudge.

Nice to meet you too.

If I understand you correctly( forgive me if I do not) are we made unrighteous every time we fail to perform perfect?
We don't trust all the time as we should
We sin in the flesh at times

No I don't believe we do. In Gods sight we remain justified/ righteous because we have accepted his son as our saviour. The fact we fail does not take away our righteousness in Gods sight, or his faithfulness to us

When I became a christian I failed to appreciate something. Sin is breaking the law of God 1 john 3:4
Paul tells us no one will be declared righteous in Gods sight by observing the law rom3:20
Therefore no one Can be made unrighteous in Gods sight if they fail to observe the law, if they fail to observe the law they sin.

That of course gives no one a licence to sin who is a born again christian for the holy spirit dwells in them and they have chosen their master romans 6:16

 

[Cee]

Cee....it really does not matter what you say..they will only twist what was said...it is a waste of time to deal with them.."shake your boots" buddy and walk on to the people that want the Lord and His righteousness and want to trust in Him only and His wonderful grace freely given to them.!

I know and I really don't like being confrontational. But when people lift themselves up as teachers there is a harsher judgment. Which I have accepted because of the importance of the message. And I don't want to see more people be burdened by these rules and anti-grace messages. But you're right I should leave it alone. I understand how Paul felt when he said he wept about those who were enemies of the cross, my heart hurts right now. I should just go. I always think if only I knew these people in person, then maybe I could show them the truth instead of arguing about it. Ugh arm-chair theology! That's why I don't like to write on these boards. Because at the end of the day I feel like it doesn't achieve much and I end up just getting frustrated because of seeing people mislead. Especially when people completely ignore so many Scriptures that I take the time to show them. I think that frustrates me more than anything. But I am hopeful because of Scripture that says He is well able to make His servants stand or fall. So I will rest in that and not type here anymore. Thanks Grace for being awesome and encouraging me. I love your posts, eternall's, ladylynn's and everyone elses.

C.

 

[kathryn]

I know and I really don't like being confrontational. But when people lift themselves up as teachers there is a harsher judgment. Which I have accepted because of the importance of the message. And I don't want to see more people be burdened by these rules and anti-grace messages. But you're right I should leave it alone. I understand how Paul felt when he said he wept about those who were enemies of the cross, my heart hurts right now. I should just go. I always think if only I knew these people in person, then maybe I could show them the truth instead of arguing about it. Ugh arm-chair theology! That's why I don't like to write on these boards. Because at the end of the day I feel like it doesn't achieve much and I end up just getting frustrated because of seeing people mislead. Especially when people completely ignore so many Scriptures that I take the time to show them. I think that frustrates me more than anything. But I am hopeful because of Scripture that says He is well able to make His servants stand or fall. So I will rest in that and not type here anymore. Thanks Grace for being awesome and encouraging me. I love your posts, eternall's, ladylynn's and everyone elses.

C.

In my opinion you have done very well indeed. You have spoken fully of the message. You have not just spoken of the free salvation by faith in christ but also of the change this brings, the need to put on the new man in the spirit.
Some on the internet preach grace without stressing the need to change through the putting on of the new man, some preach legalism. You have done neither, that is great to see