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Walking with Jesus is about relationship not righteousness. Righteous behaviour comes as a fruit of a right relationship with God.
Those who loose that relationship loose everything.
The sign of a wrong relationship with God is sin. It shows the internal conflicts within and hypocracy between what is claimed and what is done.
OSAS is not about relationship but judgement. The failure of the doctrine is without a good relationship with Jesus we stand condemned. Because you had faith, is not a way of saying you are still justified.
The only reason OSAS stands is because of the view sin stops entry into heaven, rather than, not knowing God and having a right relationship with Him stops entry into heaven.
So you see the argument, if you sinned and died you are doomed. This is a bean counter view of relationships.
The hyper-gospel answer is we are a new nature put in human vessels, perfect, so sin no longer touches us.
But this equally is false. No christian is perfect in this way, let alone one who has just believed in Jesus.
Why I object to this view of God, is because it denies sanctification, or working through love and life throughout your behaviour. It denies the need at source and claims perfection today. Now like all claims it is attractive if true, but it is a lie.
It just wants to resolve the struggle without a struggle, by getting believers to ignore their sin and not deal with failure.
Those who loose that relationship loose everything.
The sign of a wrong relationship with God is sin. It shows the internal conflicts within and hypocracy between what is claimed and what is done.
OSAS is not about relationship but judgement. The failure of the doctrine is without a good relationship with Jesus we stand condemned. Because you had faith, is not a way of saying you are still justified.
The only reason OSAS stands is because of the view sin stops entry into heaven, rather than, not knowing God and having a right relationship with Him stops entry into heaven.
So you see the argument, if you sinned and died you are doomed. This is a bean counter view of relationships.
The hyper-gospel answer is we are a new nature put in human vessels, perfect, so sin no longer touches us.
But this equally is false. No christian is perfect in this way, let alone one who has just believed in Jesus.
Why I object to this view of God, is because it denies sanctification, or working through love and life throughout your behaviour. It denies the need at source and claims perfection today. Now like all claims it is attractive if true, but it is a lie.
It just wants to resolve the struggle without a struggle, by getting believers to ignore their sin and not deal with failure.
The difference is religion teaches how to "do" holiness, but grace teaches us how to be "be" holy. What God has done is beyond anything that man made religion and rules can perform. This is true circumcision of the heart. The folly is to think that if a child of God is given freedom that they will use it to sin. As a result fear says oh we must keep them under fear so that they will behave. This is the detrimental flaw in every single view point that is not rooted in grace and the new creation reality that Christ has given us. Your words sound good, but at their core they still take away from Scriptures that tells us we are sanctified, we are justified, and that the new is here and the old is gone.
It also puts the focus on man and his sin, but this is condemnation. We put the focus on Christ and His power to transform. You think when I say we are a new creation that I believe that we can not sin, but I have said many times, that I believe WE CAN SIN, however the work in the heart transforms us so that we no longer desire it. We go from creatures that chase sin, to children who chase love. This is the life blood of gospel. That we would be conformed into the image of His Son. And in chasing love, sin is handled. Because love IS the fulfillment of the law. I have seen so many lives transformed through identity, people that religion heaped burdens on, but didn't lay a finger to help them.
It simply told them, you don't try hard enough, you are weak, you are a sinner, and then it turns around and attacks the message that actually sets people free. It hides behind fake humility because it says I won't call myself a saint because I'm just a lowly sinner. Yes you were a sinner, but now you are a saint, and God gave His Son so that you might reveal His glory to the world. Yet instead of coming to the light, religion tells people to hide. And then the world wonders where is this light? Where is the light of the world that Jesus called us to be? All the world sees are people who are still self-focused instead of Christ focused. And that is the reason why so many people struggle against sin. This message of condemnation does not set people free, it enslaves them. I write a simple thing about freedom and I get people saying oh watch out! You can't tell people they are free. It's ridiculous! You go against so many Scriptures with your logic. And it makes you the very person you call others to be. But may the Holy Spirit Himself show you the truth. And guide you into an encounter with the living God whom Scripture points to.
C.
It also puts the focus on man and his sin, but this is condemnation. We put the focus on Christ and His power to transform. You think when I say we are a new creation that I believe that we can not sin, but I have said many times, that I believe WE CAN SIN, however the work in the heart transforms us so that we no longer desire it. We go from creatures that chase sin, to children who chase love. This is the life blood of gospel. That we would be conformed into the image of His Son. And in chasing love, sin is handled. Because love IS the fulfillment of the law. I have seen so many lives transformed through identity, people that religion heaped burdens on, but didn't lay a finger to help them.
It simply told them, you don't try hard enough, you are weak, you are a sinner, and then it turns around and attacks the message that actually sets people free. It hides behind fake humility because it says I won't call myself a saint because I'm just a lowly sinner. Yes you were a sinner, but now you are a saint, and God gave His Son so that you might reveal His glory to the world. Yet instead of coming to the light, religion tells people to hide. And then the world wonders where is this light? Where is the light of the world that Jesus called us to be? All the world sees are people who are still self-focused instead of Christ focused. And that is the reason why so many people struggle against sin. This message of condemnation does not set people free, it enslaves them. I write a simple thing about freedom and I get people saying oh watch out! You can't tell people they are free. It's ridiculous! You go against so many Scriptures with your logic. And it makes you the very person you call others to be. But may the Holy Spirit Himself show you the truth. And guide you into an encounter with the living God whom Scripture points to.
C.
Nice to meet you Kathryn!
The way I read it is that trust in Him is what He declares righteous. The reverse of that would be that not trusting Him is unrighteousness. So when I am not trusting (abiding) in Him, but am working to "be good" instead of seeing that i CAN'T be good because there is no good IN me, I have become and am walking unrighteously.
To trust Him is harder than it first appeared to me. If I worry about my job, I am not trusting\abiding. If I worry about my retirement account taking a hit, I prove my unrighteousness because it is trust in Him and what He has said He will do that He says is counted to us as righteousness.
Righteousness is by trust\faith. But I can't say I don't sin if I plainly see I do when I become angry at someone for not showing care or respect to me.
The op asked if we are sinners after we meet God.
This is very hard to struggle with. I need more coffee and a piece of fudge.
The way I read it is that trust in Him is what He declares righteous. The reverse of that would be that not trusting Him is unrighteousness. So when I am not trusting (abiding) in Him, but am working to "be good" instead of seeing that i CAN'T be good because there is no good IN me, I have become and am walking unrighteously.
To trust Him is harder than it first appeared to me. If I worry about my job, I am not trusting\abiding. If I worry about my retirement account taking a hit, I prove my unrighteousness because it is trust in Him and what He has said He will do that He says is counted to us as righteousness.
Righteousness is by trust\faith. But I can't say I don't sin if I plainly see I do when I become angry at someone for not showing care or respect to me.
The op asked if we are sinners after we meet God.
This is very hard to struggle with. I need more coffee and a piece of fudge.
You say because you had faith (trusted in God), is not a way of saying you are justified.
Can you explain what you mean?
I thought justified meant righteous, or counted as righteous. I might have the definition wrong.
But if I have it right, trusting God IS the only thing He expects from us and IS the only way to becounted righteous\justified.
Can you explain what you mean?
I thought justified meant righteous, or counted as righteous. I might have the definition wrong.
But if I have it right, trusting God IS the only thing He expects from us and IS the only way to becounted righteous\justified.
Fundamentaly there is a lie here. God provided the rules. He spoke them face to face to Moses and to the people of Israel.
Jesus also laid down commandments to obey. God instituted the temple, the priests, the sacrifices.
To call this man made or wrong is to call God wrong.
To make this fundamental a mistake about the Lord shows the theology and way of thinking is not of the Lord.
No matter how well people come across, it is the Lord and His ways that matter.
Jesus also laid down commandments to obey. God instituted the temple, the priests, the sacrifices.
To call this man made or wrong is to call God wrong.
To make this fundamental a mistake about the Lord shows the theology and way of thinking is not of the Lord.
No matter how well people come across, it is the Lord and His ways that matter.
Right because the rules worked out so well for Israel.
And Jesus said to love one another was the commandment He gives... I've written about this in pretty much every post in this thread... And His statement, if you love Me you'll keep my commandments, is telling the disciples your love for me will cause you to follow Me... Or did you not notice the disciples belonged before they believed? And the temple is YOU, now. His love for us creates our love for Him and our loves for Him is expressed in our love for one another and this fulfills all the "rules".
I'm not sure you understand why the Old Testament was established and why it had to be done away with, read Galatians 3 and 2 Co 3 for a refresher.
C.
And Jesus said to love one another was the commandment He gives... I've written about this in pretty much every post in this thread... And His statement, if you love Me you'll keep my commandments, is telling the disciples your love for me will cause you to follow Me... Or did you not notice the disciples belonged before they believed? And the temple is YOU, now. His love for us creates our love for Him and our loves for Him is expressed in our love for one another and this fulfills all the "rules".
I'm not sure you understand why the Old Testament was established and why it had to be done away with, read Galatians 3 and 2 Co 3 for a refresher.
C.
The problem was one of relationship, not rules.
Individuals like Moses and Joshua walked fine with the Lord.
The rules were just a way of measuring the way of life.
In the new covenant the rules are still present, but in the Holy Spirit it is written on our hearts if we are prepared to listen.
Creating this new theology does not change the spiritual realities, it just confuses them.
Life is about reality and walking in it. This means seeing your problems for what they are, and letting Jesus put it into context. Talking super spiritual stuff simply fails, because it does not believe there is victory in the real world, and is just slavery to sin. This is a lie but true if you are not prepared to be transformed in your mind and body.
Hypocracy starts when compromise with sin. Getting people to get real with who they are and what they are as people and also in Jesus is difficult and takes time. Easy believism is not
Individuals like Moses and Joshua walked fine with the Lord.
The rules were just a way of measuring the way of life.
In the new covenant the rules are still present, but in the Holy Spirit it is written on our hearts if we are prepared to listen.
Creating this new theology does not change the spiritual realities, it just confuses them.
Life is about reality and walking in it. This means seeing your problems for what they are, and letting Jesus put it into context. Talking super spiritual stuff simply fails, because it does not believe there is victory in the real world, and is just slavery to sin. This is a lie but true if you are not prepared to be transformed in your mind and body.
Hypocracy starts when compromise with sin. Getting people to get real with who they are and what they are as people and also in Jesus is difficult and takes time. Easy believism is not
Good morning Cee...love your posts of truth...and remember I told you that you were going to get into trouble...
The message of the grace of Christ and trusting in Him alone for everything is and always will be at odds with eh D.I.Y. self-performance mindset. It's the acceptance grace that throws us off kilter because it is so anti-world believing and all religion stems from this believing as well.
This is offensive to some people, christan or otherwise.
Submitting to God's righteousness is paramount in the true Christian life.
Romans 10:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
The life of Christ in that is in us is the way we are to live now. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.
I read a quote this morning that struck truth with me.
God will often put the exact thing you need in a package that will offend you.
The message of the grace of Christ and trusting in Him alone for everything is and always will be at odds with eh D.I.Y. self-performance mindset. It's the acceptance grace that throws us off kilter because it is so anti-world believing and all religion stems from this believing as well.
This is offensive to some people, christan or otherwise.
Submitting to God's righteousness is paramount in the true Christian life.
Romans 10:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
The life of Christ in that is in us is the way we are to live now. The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death.
I read a quote this morning that struck truth with me.
God will often put the exact thing you need in a package that will offend you.
E
HI Eternally!
Don't forget brother we are DEAD to the Law! Remember Galatians? It tells us that we are dead so that we can remarry It's a beautiful picture. But yeah we are dead to the law. And the law never made anyone righteous anyways.
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Notice in this Scripture it actually doesn't mention the Law, but seeking after God, the 10 commandments were not for us but the Iraelites through Moses. We actually come in through Abraham. -Gal 3 talks about this extensively. Notice that the Scriptures written to Gentiles do not mention the 10 commandments this is why... also we know that the 10 commandments were actually the ministry of death, with a fading glory... one of the reason people think we still need the Big 10 because they don't understand that love is fulfillment of them. And Christ is love.
So now it is not us who live, but love. Of course like i've said we are growing in our understanding of this reality of what Christ accomplished for us.
C.
Don't forget brother we are DEAD to the Law! Remember Galatians? It tells us that we are dead so that we can remarry
It's a beautiful picture. But yeah we are dead to the law. And the law never made anyone righteous anyways.“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Notice in this Scripture it actually doesn't mention the Law, but seeking after God, the 10 commandments were not for us but the Iraelites through Moses. We actually come in through Abraham. -Gal 3 talks about this extensively. Notice that the Scriptures written to Gentiles do not mention the 10 commandments this is why... also we know that the 10 commandments were actually the ministry of death, with a fading glory... one of the reason people think we still need the Big 10 because they don't understand that love is fulfillment of them. And Christ is love.
So now it is not us who live, but love. Of course like i've said we are growing in our understanding of this reality of what Christ accomplished for us.
C.
Yes, the main points of what God says about us.
1. In us (that is our flesh) we can do not good.
2. The ten commands can not make us morally good
3. We must seek God (God fuels our own love) by seeking after the things of God (not law, but love)
God created us to be served by him and only him, Sin caused a separation and a barrier so God can not fill that whole. so we go on a lifetime t try to fill that hole. no matter what we try (sex drugs alcohol, food, things, etc etc) it does not fill the hole. It can only be filled by God,
That's why people who do not have God can not understand. When you are returned to the state you were hardwired for, When your deep black whole is filled to the rim, and then overflowing, and you then in turn take the excess love you have been shown by God and serve others.. There is no greater feeling.
As you said, We can sin all we want, The fact is, Every time we return to sin, and try to fill that whole with our sin, It is like poison. We have experienced God filling that whole. and we do not want to go back.
E
Amen, I have been thinking of trying to put up a study
Why are laws given.
1. Is it so people can know how to do good?
Well this does not make sense, If we are moral people. we do not need laws to tell us how to do good. it would be natural
2. Is it so a punishment can be imposed (for without the law, you can not do anything to punish me, because nothing tells me not to do something)
You can not impose a punishment, unless you said, Do not do such and such..
I think paul was speaking to this in romans 7, hen he said about coveting, the law said, do not covet, and I died (I suffered the punishment)
Why are laws given.
1. Is it so people can know how to do good?
Well this does not make sense, If we are moral people. we do not need laws to tell us how to do good. it would be natural
2. Is it so a punishment can be imposed (for without the law, you can not do anything to punish me, because nothing tells me not to do something)
You can not impose a punishment, unless you said, Do not do such and such..
I think paul was speaking to this in romans 7, hen he said about coveting, the law said, do not covet, and I died (I suffered the punishment)
If we were perfected beings without a sinful nature to lug around, it would be effortless. Unfortunately, we live in a fallen world with a fallen nature, and it requires our effort and the application of our will to keep ourselves set apart (holy) so that we may do the will of GOD through the power of the new nature that produces the fruit. The pernicious doctrine of Modern Grace tries to short circuit this process through a self-identity religion masquerading as faith.