Are we sinners?

[KennethC]

I pray and hope you understand grace at sometime Ken. You WILL find rest from all your labors.

I understand God's grace just fine as the Holy Spirit guides me in His ways.

Whenever I sin He chastises and corrects me, and even if I think of sin He guides me to put that thought to the side and focus on doing His will instead.

This is the working of the Holy Spirit in me and all believers !!!

You however by your words claim the Holy Spirit doesn't do this, and even stated he doesn't care about rather we sin in the flesh or not. You are making God's grace to allow lewdness to continue in our lives, that is dangerous teaching and understanding.

Your doctrine speaks of no victory over sin, yet God's grace says we will have victory !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

I understand God's grace just fine as the Holy Spirit guides me in His ways.

Whenever I sin He chastises and corrects me, and even if I think of sin He guides me to put that thought to the side and focus on doing His will instead.

This is the working of the Holy Spirit in me and all believers !!!

You however by your words claim the Holy Spirit doesn't do this, and even stated he doesn't care about rather we sin in the flesh or not. You are making God's grace to allow lewdness to continue in our lives, that is dangerous teaching and understanding.

Your doctrine speaks of no victory over sin, yet God's grace says we will have victory !!!

You don't understand Grace Ken. My doctrine is HIS victory over sin, not mine.

 

[KennethC]

I "liked" the idea that Gr8grace puts forth

Walking in the Spirit is living in the new creation in Christ and has absolutely nothing to with the flesh...

The flesh will always be here because that is where "sin" is in our flesh..not in our inner man..our new creation in Christ...not that we will always be at the mercy of the sin in us...we are saying the very opposite in fact!

I especially like this one he said..as it is so true!..this is where the D.I.Y. righteousness/holiness mindset comes into play...

If we are thinking that we have to overcome it or subdue it or make it a little better. We are probably living in the flesh...just the "good" side of it.

The way of the Holy Spirit will help and guide us to clean up the fleshly desires...........

Sin is not in the flesh, its in the hearts and minds which is why we are given a new nature.

Our hearts and minds are changed which in turn shows out in our outer actions.

He put forth as if there is no change in our outer actions, we are born again inside but our flesh or outer actions still remain the same sinful as ever. That is a faulty understanding !!!

Jesus gave a clear instruction about removing sin from our lives, as He stated to pluck out our eyes or cut off our hands.

The context and importance of that scripture was to show how much sin is to be removed from our lives, as Jesus said it is better to go to heaven lame then to go to hell with all your parts.

Sin leads one place and one place only !!!

No overcoming and having victory over sin shows a true sign that the Holy Spirit is not abiding in that person, and Apostle John states this clearly !!!

 

[KennethC]

You don't understand Grace Ken. My doctrine is HIS victory over sin, not mine.

I do understand His grace, it does not allow lewdness !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

I do understand His grace, it does not allow lewdness !!!

Grace is unmerited favor. it is not...........Grace is no lewdness favor.

un·mer·it·ed
ˌənˈmerədəd/
adjective
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• not deserved or merited.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"an unmerited insult"[/COLOR]
  
  
  

 

[Grace777x70]

Dozens of times...grace is without a doubt a stumbling block to many of us...I still firmly believe it's the acceptance grace that throws people off..it makes them say.."you are saying you can go and sin all you want.....you can't do that..you will not "attain heaven".....if the gospel we preach does not make people come out and accuse us of saying we can do whatever we want because of grace..then it is not the gospel that Paul preached.

It's in the acceptance grace that gives us the empowering grace to walk uprightly and godly in this present world....the gospel of the grace of Christ is the only answer..it's all to do with Him and in His finished work.

The gospel is scandalous....and a stumbling block to many..

How many times have you posted these truths? Thanks for doing it again because it is needed very much.

 

[ladylynn]

Why do you think the Lord chastises us for ???

This is mentioned all throughout the NT and especially in Paul's epistles that our sinful actions in the flesh are to be put an end to, and the Spirit does exactly that with His guidance.

You claim we never overcome and Grace777x70 liked your post.............

I am sadden for both of you that you walk around in such a defeated state of mind, as Jesus clearly said only those who overcome the world will get eternal life. That means to overcome our sinful ways to no longer walk that way.

God's grace by Jesus crucifixion covers our sins that are repent of, it does not cover the sins of unrepented or deliberate continued sins !!!

The more familiar we get with walking in the grace that Jesus bought for us., and as the HolySpirit reveals the manner of man we once were and are reminded of as we go through the process., we find we need the grace of God as we are allowed to see the depths of the human soul without Christ.

We are allowed see how God knew us before we were saved and saved us while we were yet sinners. We are assured of His love and BY FAITH we walk in that love because the Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of the love and grace of God and the salvation that is SO GREAT it defies human reason. The Bible says "who is he who over cometh?? he that believes in Jesus., it is these who are the overcomers. It is NOT that we become overcomers by obedience and then become worthy for eternal life. No never.

Why do Christians keep messing up that verse in the Bible. 1 John 5:5 AND WHO IS THE ONE WHO OVERCOMES THE WORLD, BUT HE WHO BELIEVES THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

 

[kathryn]

Dozens of times...grace is without a doubt a stumbling block to many of us...I still firmly believe it's the acceptance grace that throws people off..it makes them say.."you are saying you can go and sin all you want.....you can't do that..you will not "attain heaven".....if the gospel we preach does not make people come out and accuse us of saying we can do whatever we want because of grace..then it is not the gospel that Paul preached.

It's in the acceptance grace that gives us the empowering grace to walk uprightly and godly in this present world....the gospel of the grace of Christ is the only answer..it's all to do with Him and in His finished work.

The gospel is scandalous....and a stumbling block to many..

Your problem is, you only want to concentrate on half of Paul's message, to believe and accept Paul's message means accepting all of it, not just the nice cosy bit.

 

[PeterJens]

It is strange when a simple point is made. Morality matters, it is not a minor point.
God is about purity, holiness, righteousness.

Anyone who says we can compromise this does not understand Jesus.
We have grace because we often fail, but it is like needing continual washing to remain clean.
You do not give up washing because it is a bother, you recognise it is part of life.

But how then do people come up with no washing, just imagine you are not dirty is an insane approach.
You could argue if you stay clean you do not need washing, but that is not the argument.

It does not come simpler than this. If you break the rules, you are a sinner, you have failed, you need to get right and work it through. No historical christian movement has ever survived without dealing with this moral dilemma, and ignoring it is just accepting being buried with all the other sinners who claim they are righteous without walking the walk.

 

[kathryn]

Some seem to have the view that if you believe in the whole message you don't understand grace. I would say those who only concentrate on part of the message don't understand the whole.
Yes, Jesus died for all your sins at calvary, you are not under law but under grace. You can have no confidence in yourself to change yourself. You have to look to Christ and trust him to change you through the power of the Holy Spirit. And whilst he is doing this you are imperfect in your flesh. Praise God, your imperfections are not held against you, Jesus died for all of them, you are free. Rejoice! You are at peace with God, for you have no righteous of your own before him

Now if you say you can follow after the flesh, rather than the spirit and still experience all of the above, I say you do not understand grace, you are just kidding yourselves

 

[FreeNChrist]

It is strange when a simple point is made. Morality matters, it is not a minor point.
God is about purity, holiness, righteousness.

Anyone who says we can compromise this does not understand Jesus.
We have grace because we often fail, but it is like needing continual washing to remain clean.
You do not give up washing because it is a bother, you recognise it is part of life.

But how then do people come up with no washing, just imagine you are not dirty is an insane approach.
You could argue if you stay clean you do not need washing, but that is not the argument.

It does not come simpler than this. If you break the rules, you are a sinner, you have failed, you need to get right and work it through. No historical christian movement has ever survived without dealing with this moral dilemma, and ignoring it is just accepting being buried with all the other sinners who claim they are righteous without walking the walk.

Christianity is not morality....never has been. That is just more of your humanistic nonsense. And to say there is more cleaning that is required after one becomes a Christian is to deny the efficacy of the Cross.

 

[Gr8grace]

Dozens of times...grace is without a doubt a stumbling block to many of us...I still firmly believe it's the acceptance grace that throws people off..it makes them say.."you are saying you can go and sin all you want.....you can't do that..you will not "attain heaven".....if the gospel we preach does not make people come out and accuse us of saying we can do whatever we want because of grace..then it is not the gospel that Paul preached.

It's in the acceptance grace that gives us the empowering grace to walk uprightly and godly in this present world....the gospel of the grace of Christ is the only answer..it's all to do with Him and in His finished work.

The gospel is scandalous....and a stumbling block to many..

I have never ran into a believer that has been saved by grace and then says," lets get it on, we can sin ALL we want."

It is a distraction 777. Religion will beat this to death because religion is the great deception. They base their salvation on a Sin percentage. So they have to have a group that they can "be better than" so as to justify their "small" amount of sins that deem them worthy.........they just stumble, but OH that other guy, he fell or wasn't really saved. It is a merit system, so they need a big curve.

Religion doesn't want Grace exposed. It saves the unbeliever, and Gives the believer the POWER to grow in the knowledge of Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Some seem to have the view that if you believe in the whole message you don't understand grace. I would say those who only concentrate on part of the message don't understand the whole.
Yes, Jesus died for all your sins at calvary, you are not under law but under grace. You can have no confidence in yourself to change yourself. You have to look to Christ and trust him to change you through the power of the Holy Spirit. And whilst he is doing this you are imperfect in your flesh. Praise God, your imperfections are not held against you, Jesus died for all of them, you are free. Rejoice! You are at peace with God, for you have no righteous of your own before him

Now if you say you can follow after the flesh, rather than the spirit and still experience all of the above, I say you do not understand grace, you are just kidding yourselves

What's the "whole message"?

 

[Grace777x70]

That is not true...we are still trying to get people to understand the acceptance grace..without that..you have a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset..

Once people can get over that first hurtle of unbelief in acceptance grace..then the other aspect of grace kicks in..

...here is the difference between them and how the religious mindset "look" at grace.

There are 2 aspects to grace.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".

It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace. Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you." The grace of God speaks of better things!

Knowing that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based gospel have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous!

Your problem is, you only want to concentrate on half of Paul's message, to believe and accept Paul's message means accepting all of it, not just the nice cosy bit.

 

[Gr8grace]

It is strange when a simple point is made. Morality matters, it is not a minor point.
God is about purity, holiness, righteousness.

Anyone who says we can compromise this does not understand Jesus.
We have grace because we often fail, but it is like needing continual washing to remain clean.
You do not give up washing because it is a bother, you recognise it is part of life.

But how then do people come up with no washing, just imagine you are not dirty is an insane approach.
You could argue if you stay clean you do not need washing, but that is not the argument.

It does not come simpler than this. If you break the rules, you are a sinner, you have failed, you need to get right and work it through. No historical christian movement has ever survived without dealing with this moral dilemma, and ignoring it is just accepting being buried with all the other sinners who claim they are righteous without walking the walk.

Morality is not even a point in the Christian way of life.

We can live a life that is moral to the core...................and not live one second in Spirituality or the Christian way of life.

 

[Euphemia]

The mind is a part of one's soul, which makes up a part of man's flesh.

The way of the Holy Spirit will help and guide us to clean up the fleshly desires...........

Sin is not in the flesh, its in the hearts and minds which is why we are given a new nature.

Our hearts and minds are changed which in turn shows out in our outer actions.

He put forth as if there is no change in our outer actions, we are born again inside but our flesh or outer actions still remain the same sinful as ever. That is a faulty understanding !!!

Jesus gave a clear instruction about removing sin from our lives, as He stated to pluck out our eyes or cut off our hands.

The context and importance of that scripture was to show how much sin is to be removed from our lives, as Jesus said it is better to go to heaven lame then to go to hell with all your parts.

Sin leads one place and one place only !!!

No overcoming and having victory over sin shows a true sign that the Holy Spirit is not abiding in that person, and Apostle John states this clearly !!!

 

[Gr8grace]

Christianity is not morality....never has been. That is just more of your humanistic nonsense. And to say there is more cleaning that is required after one becomes a Christian is to deny the efficacy of the Cross.

You got to it before I did.

 

[ladylynn]

I do understand His grace, it does not allow lewdness !!!

The Gospel is about how while we were STILL YET SINNERS Christ died for us. In all our human depravity Still, God sent Jesus the Saviour., then Jesus promised to send the Comforter to guide us into all truth. He wants us to know our salvation has NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR WORKS or our human goodness or heart efforts. We are depraved individuals in NEED of Jesus righteousness. That is good news for those of us who know we NEED HIM. He came for sinners NOT the righteous people who stand on their own good merits.

Even after we are saved we have the flesh that is capable of lewdness kenneth. And if you say your mind has not been capable of any evil thoughts you would be fooling yourself. The only way we can walk away from the power of sin is by faith we recon ourselves dead to it. By faith it has no power over us.

By faith we believed on Christ and by faith we claim the promises. We are now to live BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT. Grace teaches us how to deny ungodliess and worldly lusts., how to live soberly and righteously and godly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.

Not by our old manner of living and thinking. How many more ways can it be said. We live and move and have our being in Him. Jesus gives us love and grace and the more we walk in those things the less interested our desire will be to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We turn from those old ways and walk in newness of life.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes..sir!...I also think it may be that people fear acceptance grace because it makes one say.."But whatabout the rules?..what are we going to live by now?....and this creates "fear"...and the potential for lawlessness...

But what if we can actually trust the Holy Spirit in us?...what if we can actually trust the life of Christ in us?..what is we can actually believe God when He says..I will put my Spirit in them..I will write my laws on their hearts and minds..

What if we could really trust the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?....that the power of sin is broken over our lives because of Him and His blood!

What if we could trust in the law of love that is in us now in Christ? - that love will direct us in our life..

What if we could trust in the law of faith in us now? - faith to believe in all things that the Lord has for us and to be a blessing to others..

What if we could trust in the law of liberty in Christ to not harm other people because we are free?

What if.....we could believe ....

I have never ran into a believer that has been saved by grace and then says," lets get it on, we can sin ALL we want."

It is a distraction 777. Religion will beat this to death because religion is the great deception. They base their salvation on a Sin percentage. So they have to have a group that they can "be better than" so as to justify their "small" amount of sins that deem them worthy.........they just stumble, but OH that other guy, he fell or wasn't really saved. It is a merit system, so they need a big curve.

Religion doesn't want Grace exposed. It saves the unbeliever, and Gives the believer the POWER to grow in the knowledge of Christ.

 

[eternallife7]

We are the ones looking to Jesus and we are the ones who are consistently pointing others to Him. If you cannot defend what you believe without mischaracterizing others, then you should really step back and re-consider the validity of your beliefs.

huh? If you were pointing people to Christ you wouldn't believe in a hyper grace doctrine that says you do not have to follow Christ's teachings. Christ sasys abide in me and that all who do not are gathered up and casted into the fire. Abide means remain in His teaching not cast it aside as unessacery.