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K
Here is the problem:
1) The side that agrees we can has scriptural backing to prove their point
2) The side that says we can't also has scriptural backing to prove their point
This runs into problems and must be dug down deeper and spiritually to discern the truth !!!
When arguments or debates arise around the usage of rather works or sins cause us to earn or lose salvation then we know neither side is correct and is locked into a futile endless debate.
Works do not earn salvation no more then sins cause us to lose it !!!
So what does it boil down to then, it falls on the fact of having faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
No faith in Him or you don't put your faith in Him any more then you are not saved..........
If you do put your faith in Him and continue in that faith then you are saved...........
It is that simple and should not be complicated into a whole works vs. sin never ending debate, if you have faith you are saved if you don't your not !!!
1) The side that agrees we can has scriptural backing to prove their point
2) The side that says we can't also has scriptural backing to prove their point
This runs into problems and must be dug down deeper and spiritually to discern the truth !!!
When arguments or debates arise around the usage of rather works or sins cause us to earn or lose salvation then we know neither side is correct and is locked into a futile endless debate.
Works do not earn salvation no more then sins cause us to lose it !!!
So what does it boil down to then, it falls on the fact of having faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
No faith in Him or you don't put your faith in Him any more then you are not saved..........
If you do put your faith in Him and continue in that faith then you are saved...........
It is that simple and should not be complicated into a whole works vs. sin never ending debate, if you have faith you are saved if you don't your not !!!
G
Show me ONE verse that SPECIFICALLY says," you will/have lost salvation" or "You will/have lost eternal life." No one has that verse.Just verses that SEEM to say it.
And it can't get much clearer than this for eternal security.
Rom 6:23~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
And it can't get much clearer than this for eternal security.
Rom 6:23~~New American Standard Bible
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
James 1:17~~New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
WoW..I had no idea about the mighty power that sin has over the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ..that it takes our "eternal life in Him away"
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more ( hyper ) those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do we have to throw these verse and the many more that say the same thing out of our bibles now?
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more ( hyper ) those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do we have to throw these verse and the many more that say the same thing out of our bibles now?
The 5 foolish virgins thought they had eternal life, but when they were resurrected they discovered that it had been quenched (extinguished). The only way that could happen is through having lived their lives according to another spirit. Yet they thought they were saved.
Then all those virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish ones said to the wise ones, ‘Give us [some] of your olive oil, because our lamps are going out!’ Matthew 25:7-8
Going out
G4570 σβέννυμι sbennumi (sben'-noo-mee) v.
1. to extinguish
Going out
G4570 σβέννυμι sbennumi (sben'-noo-mee) v.
1. to extinguish
I personally believe that those who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Savior in this world, but fall away, especially at the end, will... still be saved, eventually. Notice I said eventually. I don't believe all the NT Messages to those who believe on The Father through His Son's Blood shed upon the cross were given in vain.
But can we omit the NT warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave about staying in Him and His Word and not to be deceived? I don't think so. Likewise, can we just throw away the examples He gave of those servants He will shut the door upon? I don't think we can discard those Scriptures either, although that's exactly what many try to do.
Can we also throw away what Apostle Paul said about those who keep doing the sins of the flesh he listed in Galatians 5, whom he also said shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? I don't think so. All those Scriptures must be weighed too.
Remember about the believer among the Church at Corinth that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother which Paul cast out and rebuked the members there for not doing so:
1 Cor 5:1-5
5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV
Paul told them to cast that believer out from among them, which no doubt was about isolating that sinner from the Church; that so his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus??? What about that idea in bold red? If we look closely in God's Word, we notice that sinners are still present during Christ's future Millennial reign, but in a place of separation our Lord Jesus called the "outer darkness".
In Matt.25, we are shown the unprofitable servant will be cast to the "outer darkness".
Where is that "outer darkness" in Christ's future Kingdom?
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
That is the "outer darkness" our Lord Jesus warned about. In all three NT examples of the "outer darkness", Jesus revealed also there in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt.8:12; 22:13; 25:30).
To me, that "outer darkness" represents the hell of that future Millennial time, i.e., the abode of the wicked on earth, outside the gates of the beloved city.
The one of 1 Cor.5 that was having sex with his mother, I believe that is where Paul was talking about that sinner would be during "the day of the Lord Jesus", which is about the day of Christ's coming and start of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. It's possible that sinner was forgiven and reconciled to the Church at Corinth, but if not, I think the "outer darkness" is where he would be in Christ's future Millennial reign.
Thus, what I also see with this, is pointing to the ability of one's spirit like that sinner still possibly being saved by Jesus in that time (it's up to Him though I must affirm).
So my bottom line question on this might be, where do we as believers want to be during that time of our Lord Jesus' future thousand years reign with His elect? Inside the gates of the beloved city and have right to the tree of life, or outside those gates in the "outer darkness"? For the deceived and fallen away, I believe that "outer darkness" is where they will wind up if they do not turn back to Jesus and become more focused in The Faith (I do not exclude myself in that possibility either IF I fall away from Jesus Christ).
This would explain why our Lord Jesus in Rev.16:15 within the 6th Vial timing, warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch, and keep their garments, lest they walk naked, and they see his shame. Those garments represent the garments of Salvation. He was not saying that to the wicked, but to His Church. It also explains why He said in Rev.3:4 there were "... a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy."
But can we omit the NT warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave about staying in Him and His Word and not to be deceived? I don't think so. Likewise, can we just throw away the examples He gave of those servants He will shut the door upon? I don't think we can discard those Scriptures either, although that's exactly what many try to do.
Can we also throw away what Apostle Paul said about those who keep doing the sins of the flesh he listed in Galatians 5, whom he also said shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? I don't think so. All those Scriptures must be weighed too.
Remember about the believer among the Church at Corinth that was having sexual intercourse with his own mother which Paul cast out and rebuked the members there for not doing so:
1 Cor 5:1-5
5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV
Paul told them to cast that believer out from among them, which no doubt was about isolating that sinner from the Church; that so his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus??? What about that idea in bold red? If we look closely in God's Word, we notice that sinners are still present during Christ's future Millennial reign, but in a place of separation our Lord Jesus called the "outer darkness".
In Matt.25, we are shown the unprofitable servant will be cast to the "outer darkness".
Where is that "outer darkness" in Christ's future Kingdom?
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
That is the "outer darkness" our Lord Jesus warned about. In all three NT examples of the "outer darkness", Jesus revealed also there in that place will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt.8:12; 22:13; 25:30).
To me, that "outer darkness" represents the hell of that future Millennial time, i.e., the abode of the wicked on earth, outside the gates of the beloved city.
The one of 1 Cor.5 that was having sex with his mother, I believe that is where Paul was talking about that sinner would be during "the day of the Lord Jesus", which is about the day of Christ's coming and start of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. It's possible that sinner was forgiven and reconciled to the Church at Corinth, but if not, I think the "outer darkness" is where he would be in Christ's future Millennial reign.
Thus, what I also see with this, is pointing to the ability of one's spirit like that sinner still possibly being saved by Jesus in that time (it's up to Him though I must affirm).
So my bottom line question on this might be, where do we as believers want to be during that time of our Lord Jesus' future thousand years reign with His elect? Inside the gates of the beloved city and have right to the tree of life, or outside those gates in the "outer darkness"? For the deceived and fallen away, I believe that "outer darkness" is where they will wind up if they do not turn back to Jesus and become more focused in The Faith (I do not exclude myself in that possibility either IF I fall away from Jesus Christ).
This would explain why our Lord Jesus in Rev.16:15 within the 6th Vial timing, warned His Church that He comes "as a thief", and blessed are those who watch, and keep their garments, lest they walk naked, and they see his shame. Those garments represent the garments of Salvation. He was not saying that to the wicked, but to His Church. It also explains why He said in Rev.3:4 there were "... a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy."
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
So - the Holy Spirit that we are sealed with guarantees our inheritance until we acquire possession of it - (in that day) . . .
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption -
So it seems the holy Spirit of God guarantees our inheritance - our inheritance is eternal life - and it is guaranteed until we acquire possession of it which would be - the day of redemption.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled and unfading, kept in heaven for you, WHO BY GOD'S POWER are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
It seems we are kept by God's power . . . .
So - the Holy Spirit that we are sealed with guarantees our inheritance until we acquire possession of it - (in that day) . . .
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption -
So it seems the holy Spirit of God guarantees our inheritance - our inheritance is eternal life - and it is guaranteed until we acquire possession of it which would be - the day of redemption.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled and unfading, kept in heaven for you, WHO BY GOD'S POWER are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
It seems we are kept by God's power . . . .
Imagine, I venture back into the BDF, only to find another OSAS vs "Lose your Salvation" thread. Under the clever guise of being a poll.
I just know that if I had to chose, I probably never would have been saved. And if I had to continue to be very aware of my choice, on those horrible, pain filled days, I probably would have turned away from God, not towards him.
I just don't get, who, after experiencing the grace of God would turn away. I was in the world, in the New Age movement, and there was NOTHING that compared to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
I think this whole nonsense about choosing to walk away from God is utter garbage. No one walks away from the living God. But some might have thought they knew God, but really were just following outside forms, and when things got a little tough, they walked away.
You simply cannot lose your salvation if God has saved you. End of discussion!
I just know that if I had to chose, I probably never would have been saved. And if I had to continue to be very aware of my choice, on those horrible, pain filled days, I probably would have turned away from God, not towards him.
I just don't get, who, after experiencing the grace of God would turn away. I was in the world, in the New Age movement, and there was NOTHING that compared to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
I think this whole nonsense about choosing to walk away from God is utter garbage. No one walks away from the living God. But some might have thought they knew God, but really were just following outside forms, and when things got a little tough, they walked away.
You simply cannot lose your salvation if God has saved you. End of discussion!
