the rapture

[PlainWord]

Who's the "serpent" per that Rev.12 chapter? Satan, that's one of his many titles per Rev.12:9. What's the "water as a flood" represent? LIES OF DECEPTION, for it's words that come out one's mouth, and that's what he did with Eve in God's Garden, which is why we're given that "serpent" symbol there along with that "dragon" symbol next, so you know who The Lord is pointing to. Our Lord Jesus pretty much showed you that's about Satan and his angels coming to earth in the end of days per those titles He gave about Satan in that Rev.12 chapter, and that's who will be that pseudo-Christ/Antichrist we've been talking about deceiving the whole world.

Of course. I know this. There is no debate here. Satan comes to earth as a man, just as Christ did.

So you haven't considered that the pseudo-Christ isn't really going to do what the Muslims think? Didn't many of Christ's disciples think Jesus had then come to reign over the wicked at His 1st coming, which is why the scribes and Pharisees were scared Jesus was come to overthrow them? Muslims won't be prepared against Satan's working of deception he's coming to do on earth in the sight of men anymore than those of other faiths are, including many of our own Christian brethren that have been deceived by men's doctrines.

None of the ELECT are deceived. It isn't possible for them to be deceived. Only the lost are deceived. You know, Satan is a murder and a liar? In fact, he is the father of all lies.

John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Which false faith lies and kills over their faith?

Our Lord Jesus didn't have to use the word temple in that warning, He and His disciples were upon the Mount of Olives looking AT the temple mount complex. That was in view when He was giving that prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel.

That's true. Would it not have been a perfect opportunity at the time Christ said, "Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another", to mention that another temple would be built 2,000 years later? But He didn't breathe a word about it.

Rev.11:1-2 is showing you another temple in Jerusalem during the 6th trumpet

It does?

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

No Jerusalem!! Where is the Temple of God again? Same Chapter, Rev 11.

Revelation 11:19

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

John was told not to measure the courtyard where the Gentiles were on the Temple Mount because that is where they set up their temple.

And the Book of Daniel shows the AOD does... involve a temple in Jerusalem. Actually, that Daniel prophecy cannot take place without another Jewish temple in Jerusalem, simply because that is required to fulfill that prophecy.

Daniel doesn't mention a temple. The only time Daniel uses the word, "temple" is in Dan 5:3. Daniel is discussing a Sanctuary Fortress when he discusses the A of D. It isn't even clear where the King of the North is at this time. He goes South, then returns north.

 

[tanakh]

Then,conversely you have placed the last day of the church at the beginning of the GT.
Its like you destroyed your own argument. (we would have,as pretribbers, a last day before yours)
which is correct. The last day of the church age



No we can place the rapture pretrib via verses that support it. As opposed to the zero verses supporting postrib rapture.



They were wrong about lots of things. Doesn't matter or help either side of the debate.
And no,neither side believes Jesus is a liar. You made that up.



Yes,you are right. he does send his angels to gather us from heaven where we have been 7 years,and we return with him.
(in the gathering of the bride,the pretrib rapture,Jesus himself gathers)....uh,NOT from heaven.
Thanks for the pretrib rapture verification!

You use any interpretation you like but the truth is that the Pre Trib teaching is a Heresy and it is deceiving millions of people. The Jewish knew nothing of a Church age when Jesus made those statements in John let alone a Church yet the belief in a resurrection on the last day was a common belief long before Jesus birth and ministry. So instead of accusing me of making it up I would check out your own position. There are winds in the atmospheric heaven but where does it say that heaven where God has his throne is windy? Why would it be necessary to gather us if we had been there for seven years? I notice you seize on one word in the passage and ignore the rest which clearly contradicts every pre trib statement I have ever read regarding Christs secret rapture belief. It is a typical tactic used to support the belief as is
interpreting plain statements to suit the Pre Trib agenda. The fact remains that hardly anyone of note in Church history
knew or imagined the Pre Trib teaching until the nineteenth century when Darby and Schofield started peddling it. Incidently Derby was also a major advocate of British Israelism which says a lot for his credentials.

 

[Ahwatukee]

knew or imagined the Pre Trib teaching until the nineteenth century when Darby and Schofield started peddling it. Incidently Derby was also a major advocate of British Israelism which says a lot for his credentials.

Hello Tanakh,

I see this claim regarding Darby and Schofield a lot regarding the Pre-Trib belief. So my question is, how did I and, I'm sure millions of others, come to the conclusion of the Lord's Pre-Trib/pre-wrath gathering of the church, who have never read Darby or Schofield? People always assume that our understanding of the timing of the Lord's gathering of the church has been adopted by some other teacher or group. However, it has been through my own personal studies of over 40 years, that I arrived at this conclusion and not by any teacher.

Referring to the dead and living being gathered by the Lord as being a "secret rapture" this is also a popular tactic used to discredit those who hold to this interpretation. However, it is never referred to in Scripture as being secret, but is a scriptural promise from the Lord for all to see. One of the major problems for this controversy of timing, is the error of not recognizing that the resurrection and catching away (RCA) is a completely different event from the event of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Another common error is that, people don't understand that the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is in reference to the great tribulation saints, only! For there is no mention of the living being transformed and caught up at this resurrection. We know that they are the great tribulation saints being resurrected, because they are identified as being killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and also because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor have received his mark. This would put this group who are resurrected as coming out of that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

In relation to this, another error that people make is not understanding that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection.

The First resurrection is comprised of the following:

* Jesus the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Cor.15:23)

* The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child/144,000 who are caught up in the middle of the seven years (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)

Therefore, the belief in the RCA of the church is based on the fact that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that because Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied through Christ on our behalf.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)

At the end of Paul's outline of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, which event is also called "the blessed hope" Paul said "Therefore comfort each other with these words." He said the same thing in 1 Thes.1:11 after stating that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath. Consequently, if the church were to go through that seven year period or even part of it, there would be no comfort for the faithful. For according to scripture, just with the 4th seal and 6th trumpet, there will be approximately 4.4 billion fatalities and that is not including the first three trumpets or the bowl judgments. Regarding this decimation of the inhabitants of the earth, Jesus also said that, "if those days of wrath had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth." Therefore, since the wrath of God is comprised of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, and that antichrist is the first seal rider on the white horse, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened.

Blessings!

 

[tanakh]

Hello Tanakh,

I see this claim regarding Darby and Schofield a lot regarding the Pre-Trib belief. So my question is, how did I and, I'm sure millions of others, come to the conclusion of the Lord's Pre-Trib/pre-wrath gathering of the church, who have never read Darby or Schofield? People always assume that our understanding of the timing of the Lord's gathering of the church has been adopted by some other teacher or group. However, it has been through my own personal studies of over 40 years, that I arrived at this conclusion and not by any teacher.

Referring to the dead and living being gathered by the Lord as being a "secret rapture" this is also a popular tactic used to discredit those who hold to this interpretation. However, it is never referred to in Scripture as being secret, but is a scriptural promise from the Lord for all to see. One of the major problems for this controversy of timing, is the error of not recognizing that the resurrection and catching away (RCA) is a completely different event from the event of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Another common error is that, people don't understand that the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is in reference to the great tribulation saints, only! For there is no mention of the living being transformed and caught up at this resurrection. We know that they are the great tribulation saints being resurrected, because they are identified as being killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and also because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor have received his mark. This would put this group who are resurrected as coming out of that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

In relation to this, another error that people make is not understanding that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection.

The First resurrection is comprised of the following:

* Jesus the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Cor.15:23)

* The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child/144,000 who are caught up in the middle of the seven years (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)

Therefore, the belief in the RCA of the church is based on the fact that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that because Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied through Christ on our behalf.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)

At the end of Paul's outline of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, which event is also called "the blessed hope" Paul said "Therefore comfort each other with these words." He said the same thing in 1 Thes.1:11 after stating that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath. Consequently, if the church were to go through that seven year period or even part of it, there would be no comfort for the faithful. For according to scripture, just with the 4th seal and 6th trumpet, there will be approximately 4.4 billion fatalities and that is not including the first three trumpets or the bowl judgments. Regarding this decimation of the inhabitants of the earth, Jesus also said that, "if those days of wrath had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth." Therefore, since the wrath of God is comprised of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, and that antichrist is the first seal rider on the white horse, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened.

Blessings![/QUOTE

]Every person I have met who believes in the Pre Trib Rapture teaching has either believed in it by reading a book about it or heard about it from their Minister or through some other means. Up until now I have never heard of anyone actually coming to the position by studying the Bible alone without anything else influencing them. This doesn't surprise me, seeing that I do not now believe it . Although there was a time that I did. One main reason I believed then was that I had never
heard of any alternative view and I attended a church where most not all members believed it. In my experience people who do believe seem to be driven by emotion rather than sound teaching. Who wants to experience the tribulation? So
anyone who appears to offer an alternative are eagerly listened to.

One major Pre Trib argument rests on the idea that we are not appointed to wrath so we all escape before the tribulation
takes place. According to revelation God sets a seal on believers so we are not subjected to the wrath of God by being here. When God sent the plagues on Egypt he didn't take the Israelites out of the Country first but protected them.
When the firstborn were killed he told them to protect themselves by putting blood on the Door Posts. This is interesting because In Revelation some of the Plagues God sends are similar to the Plagues of Egypt. So it is not difficult to believe that believers would still be here in the tribulation. This is a long and complex subject but I will sign off with another couple of quotations from Jesus in John.

I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world but that thou keepest them from the evil one.

John 17 16

I do not pray for these only but also for those who believe in me through their word.

JOhn 17 20

 

[DP]

DP,



You mean these passages?

13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

Where do you suppose the above takes place? Why do you think war broke out in heaven? Why was Satan cast to the earth? Did Satan do something bad up there?

As usual, you leave out portions of God's Word:

Isa 14:13
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
KJV

But there isn't a temple for the A of D to be set up in and there is no prophesy of another (3rd) man-made temples to be built or destroyed again. Where instead are we told the Temple is located?

Oh, but yes there is. You simply refuse to recognize it because it doesn't fit the doctrine of man you've been taught.

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV


That underlined part is the same 42 months timing of the reign of the "dragon" per Rev.13. Hard to miss that, since it also means that temple there is not one in Heaven, but on earth.

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" is about a standing temple in Jerusalem, not some back room at your local bar. It's the same reference to the temple like Acts 6:13.

The "abomination of desolation" from Daniel means an idol placed, per Dan.11:31. So all those Revelation verses you quoted cannot replace what these above Scriptures I'm showing is about.

Again, what do you suppose Satan was doing up in heaven to cause the war and his expulsion?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Why do you suppose there was rejoicing in heaven when Satan was cast out? You don't suppose Satan would have the gall to declare himself to be above God in God's own temple in heaven, do you? I don't know. I wouldn't put it past him.

You're way off track, trying to throw the events of Scripture I've shown about the end of this world back to the time of Satan's original rebellion against God. That just isn't going to work. You have to learn to not skip over anything written in God's Word, for those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are taught to do the same thing you're doing, i.e., skip over Scripture that doesn't agree with their doctrine of men.

 

[DP]

I fixed your misplaced bracket tanakh from your previous post...

Hello Tanakh,

I see this claim regarding Darby and Schofield a lot regarding the Pre-Trib belief. So my question is, how did I and, I'm sure millions of others, come to the conclusion of the Lord's Pre-Trib/pre-wrath gathering of the church, who have never read Darby or Schofield? People always assume that our understanding of the timing of the Lord's gathering of the church has been adopted by some other teacher or group. However, it has been through my own personal studies of over 40 years, that I arrived at this conclusion and not by any teacher.

Referring to the dead and living being gathered by the Lord as being a "secret rapture" this is also a popular tactic used to discredit those who hold to this interpretation. However, it is never referred to in Scripture as being secret, but is a scriptural promise from the Lord for all to see. One of the major problems for this controversy of timing, is the error of not recognizing that the resurrection and catching away (RCA) is a completely different event from the event of Christ's return to the earth to end the age. Another common error is that, people don't understand that the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is in reference to the great tribulation saints, only! For there is no mention of the living being transformed and caught up at this resurrection. We know that they are the great tribulation saints being resurrected, because they are identified as being killed for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and also because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor have received his mark. This would put this group who are resurrected as coming out of that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

In relation to this, another error that people make is not understanding that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection.

The First resurrection is comprised of the following:

* Jesus the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep (1 Cor.15:23)

* The resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child/144,000 who are caught up in the middle of the seven years (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints who will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth (Rev.20:4)

Therefore, the belief in the RCA of the church is based on the fact that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that because Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins and therefore God's wrath has been satisfied through Christ on our behalf.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. (1 Thes.1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)

At the end of Paul's outline of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18, which event is also called "the blessed hope" Paul said "Therefore comfort each other with these words." He said the same thing in 1 Thes.1:11 after stating that Christ rescues us from the coming wrath. Consequently, if the church were to go through that seven year period or even part of it, there would be no comfort for the faithful. For according to scripture, just with the 4th seal and 6th trumpet, there will be approximately 4.4 billion fatalities and that is not including the first three trumpets or the bowl judgments. Regarding this decimation of the inhabitants of the earth, Jesus also said that, "if those days of wrath had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth." Therefore, since the wrath of God is comprised of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, and that antichrist is the first seal rider on the white horse, then the church must be removed prior to that first seal being opened.

Blessings!

Every person I have met who believes in the Pre Trib Rapture teaching has either believed in it by reading a book about it or heard about it from their Minister or through some other means. Up until now I have never heard of anyone actually coming to the position by studying the Bible alone without anything else influencing them. This doesn't surprise me, seeing that I do not now believe it . Although there was a time that I did. One main reason I believed then was that I had never heard of any alternative view and I attended a church where most not all members believed it. In my experience people who do believe seem to be driven by emotion rather than sound teaching. Who wants to experience the tribulation? So anyone who appears to offer an alternative are eagerly listened to.

One major Pre Trib argument rests on the idea that we are not appointed to wrath so we all escape before the tribulation
takes place. According to revelation God sets a seal on believers so we are not subjected to the wrath of God by being here. When God sent the plagues on Egypt he didn't take the Israelites out of the Country first but protected them.
When the firstborn were killed he told them to protect themselves by putting blood on the Door Posts. This is interesting because In Revelation some of the Plagues God sends are similar to the Plagues of Egypt. So it is not difficult to believe that believers would still be here in the tribulation. This is a long and complex subject but I will sign off with another couple of quotations from Jesus in John.

I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world but that thou keepest them from the evil one.

John 17 16

I do not pray for these only but also for those who believe in me through their word.

JOhn 17 20

Tanakh's words above I put in bold is a huge point with why many that fall away to men's doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture. Driving one's emotions is a huge part of it, which is why they create books and movies like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series. Some of their Churches even use LaHaye's books to teach from in Sunday school class.

With one pre-trib Church some friends went to, they said there was a band playing music for about an hour (to drive the emotions up), and then the preacher came out to the podium and threw out his arm and hand towards the congregation, and some people fell back onto the floor. Slain in The Spirit they call that, yet, the only ones I can find in God's Word that fell backward were God's enemies. The Edward Irving Church in 1830's Great Britain had those kind of manifestations in it, and per Dave McPhearson's scholarly research on Darby, even Darby didn't feel all that comfortable with those manifestations in the Irving Church either.

We were well warned about those kind of things that cause leaving the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

 

[DP]

Of course. I know this. There is no debate here. Satan comes to earth as a man, just as Christ did.

I hope you realize what you just agreed to with that above statement. You agree that Satan is coming in place of Christ, with the image of man, upon this earth in the last days.

None of the ELECT are deceived. It isn't possible for them to be deceived. Only the lost are deceived. You know, Satan is a murder and a liar? In fact, he is the father of all lies.

John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Which false faith lies and kills over their faith?

And who are Christ's elect? Not the five foolish virgins (Matt.25). Not the unprofitable servant (Matt.25). Not those who do many wonderful works in Christ's Name but work iniquity that Jesus will say to, "... depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."(Matt.7:23).

That's true. Would it not have been a perfect opportunity at the time Christ said,

"Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another", to mention that another temple would be built 2,000 years later? But He didn't breathe a word about it.

And the huge stones of the Wailing Wall still stand at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today to prove the 70 A.D. destruction was not the true fulfillment of that not one stone on top of another, but only a type. The signs Jesus was giving His disciples (and us) upon the Mount of Olives are the signs of the Seals of Revelation 6, which Seals are for the end of this world. After all, Christ's 2nd coming and the end of the world was the timing His disciples asked Him about per Matt.24:1-3.

It does?

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

No Jerusalem!! Where is the Temple of God again? Same Chapter, Rev 11.

Here's what you left out of that quote...

Rev 11:2
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

YES! That is... about a standing temple in JERUSALEM! The 42 months they tread the holy city (Jerusalem) is linked to the time of the dragon's reign of Rev.13:

Rev 13:4-5
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
KJV


You really ought to stop leaving out Scripture, just because it doesn't fit your doctrine of men you follow. It shows you're not being honest.

 

[DP]

No Jerusalem!! Where is the Temple of God again? Same Chapter, Rev 11.

Revelation 11:19

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

John was told not to measure the courtyard where the Gentiles were on the Temple Mount because that is where they set up their temple.

How can you just LEAVE OUT the Rev.11:3-18 verses out of that? Rev.11:19 is for a time AFTER Christ's 2nd coming!

Rev 11:11-19
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV


ALL THOSE EVENTS you just SKIPPED right over, just to get to that Rev.11:19 verse!

Also, don't you know the difference between the temple on earth of Rev.11:1-2 verses that temple there in Heaven with God? The one on earth at Rev.11:1-2 is BUILT BY MAN. The one shown in Heaven is NOT, and it will come down to this earth eventually as Ezekiel 40 through 47 reveals God's House in the area of Jerusalem during the time of Christ's future reign on earth.

Daniel doesn't mention a temple. The only time Daniel uses the word, "temple" is in Dan 5:3. Daniel is discussing a Sanctuary Fortress when he discusses the A of D. It isn't even clear where the King of the North is at this time. He goes South, then returns north.

Well, YES Daniel does, as he was first given the prophecy of the 70 weeks. See Dan.9 again.

 

[popeye]

I fixed your misplaced bracket tanakh from your previous post...



Tanakh's words above I put in bold is a huge point with why many that fall away to men's doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture. Driving one's emotions is a huge part of it, which is why they create books and movies like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series. Some of their Churches even use LaHaye's books to teach from in Sunday school class.

With one pre-trib Church some friends went to, they said there was a band playing music for about an hour (to drive the emotions up), and then the preacher came out to the podium and threw out his arm and hand towards the congregation, and some people fell back onto the floor. Slain in The Spirit they call that, yet, the only ones I can find in God's Word that fell backward were God's enemies. The Edward Irving Church in 1830's Great Britain had those kind of manifestations in it, and per Dave McPhearson's scholarly research on Darby, even Darby didn't feel all that comfortable with those manifestations in the Irving Church either.

We were well warned about those kind of things that cause leaving the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

Attempt to slime charismatics and those of us waiting for the groom gathering his bride.

How does slimming your fellow believers promote your doctrine?

Hint,we are not your enemy.
The devil is your enemy.

You can say you disagree
You can say you believe different
Or that we are wrong
Then show us your great verses upholding your theory.

I guess since there are none you go after us personally.
That tactic is in Saul alenski's book RULES FOR RADICALS.

 

[popeye]

I fixed your misplaced bracket tanakh from your previous post...



Tanakh's words above I put in bold is a huge point with why many that fall away to men's doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture. Driving one's emotions is a huge part of it, which is why they create books and movies like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series. Some of their Churches even use LaHaye's books to teach from in Sunday school class.

With one pre-trib Church some friends went to, they said there was a band playing music for about an hour (to drive the emotions up), and then the preacher came out to the podium and threw out his arm and hand towards the congregation, and some people fell back onto the floor. Slain in The Spirit they call that, yet, the only ones I can find in God's Word that fell backward were God's enemies. The Edward Irving Church in 1830's Great Britain had those kind of manifestations in it, and per Dave McPhearson's scholarly research on Darby, even Darby didn't feel all that comfortable with those manifestations in the Irving Church either.

We were well warned about those kind of things that cause leaving the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV

As usual, you leave out portions of God's Word:

Isa 14:13
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
KJV





Oh, but yes there is. You simply refuse to recognize it because it doesn't fit the doctrine of man you've been taught.

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV


That underlined part is the same 42 months timing of the reign of the "dragon" per Rev.13. Hard to miss that, since it also means that temple there is not one in Heaven, but on earth.

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" is about a standing temple in Jerusalem, not some back room at your local bar. It's the same reference to the temple like Acts 6:13.

The "abomination of desolation" from Daniel means an idol placed, per Dan.11:31. So all those Revelation verses you quoted cannot replace what these above Scriptures I'm showing is about.




You're way off track, trying to throw the events of Scripture I've shown about the end of this world back to the time of Satan's original rebellion against God. That just isn't going to work. You have to learn to not skip over anything written in God's Word, for those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are taught to do the same thing you're doing, i.e., skip over Scripture that doesn't agree with their doctrine of men.

You keep referring to us as taught by man

It is in ya'lls workbook to refer to the dead men of the early church as infallible.
Then ya'lls next playing card is that you are so superior standing on this foundation of dead men.

IOW,YOUR MAIN DEAL IS MANS BELIEFS

That is a spirit. That is the core of postrib.

That is WHY you guys ALWAYS,WITHOUT FAIL bring man into your extrabiblical arena .

You do it over,and over,and over.

But then again,you have no biblical case,so I do understand the hopelessness you guys feel trying to tie God's word in with that phony foundation of dead men

 

[popeye]

You use any interpretation you like but the truth is that the Pre Trib teaching is a Heresy and it is deceiving millions of people. The Jewish knew nothing of a Church age when Jesus made those statements in John let alone a Church yet the belief in a resurrection on the last day was a common belief long before Jesus birth and ministry. So instead of accusing me of making it up I would check out your own position. There are winds in the atmospheric heaven but where does it say that heaven where God has his throne is windy? Why would it be necessary to gather us if we had been there for seven years? I notice you seize on one word in the passage and ignore the rest which clearly contradicts every pre trib statement I have ever read regarding Christs secret rapture belief. It is a typical tactic used to support the belief as is
interpreting plain statements to suit the Pre Trib agenda. The fact remains that hardly anyone of note in Church history
knew or imagined the Pre Trib teaching until the nineteenth century when Darby and Schofield started peddling it. Incidently Derby was also a major advocate of British Israelism which says a lot for his credentials.

You pull that postrib workbook like a six gun.

You have no case.

Bring the debate into the realm of the bible.

The dead men in your workbook are a fluke.

Try and defend your position W/O them

I wager you can not

 

[DP]

Attempt to slime charismatics and those of us waiting for the groom gathering his bride.

How does slimming your fellow believers promote your doctrine?

Hint,we are not your enemy.
The devil is your enemy.

You can say you disagree
You can say you believe different
Or that we are wrong
Then show us your great verses upholding your theory.

I guess since there are none you go after us personally.
That tactic is in Saul alenski's book RULES FOR RADICALS.

What are you whining about now? In all cases where you've tried to supply Scripture support for the Pre-trib Rapture you have failed, so now you make direct attacks upon my credibility, because that's all you have left, showing how deceived you are by those you listen to.

If you found just one Scripture that goes against the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men, then that should... have made you stop and wonder, and go deeper into Bible study for yourself. But instead, you mock others that have... done their homework in God's Word to know the Pre-trib Rapture theory is a doctrine of men, and not of God.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those daysshall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV



Those two Scriptures proofs ought... to be enough for you to question the theory of man you are on, and to start looking deeper in God's Word.

But no, you would rather mock instead while denying... that Scripture evidence my Lord Jesus left His faithful who heed His Word. Thus you place yourself among the charlatans you instead have believed on. Let them save you if they can, since your faith is misplaced in them, and not in God's Word as written.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Darby and Schofield are not the first "peddlers" of a pre-tribulational catching away (harpadzo).
Some of the "early church fathers" also postulated and supported a pre-tribulational catching away. I don't support all of the teachings of the "early church fathers," but there is proof that this is not a new concept. Iraneus (c. 180AD) for example spoke about a pre-tribulational catching away. There are also many writings by the "early church fathers" on the imminence of the catching away, which doesn't line up with a post-tribulational catching away. However, many did believe they were already in the great tribulation, which at the time didn't make 100% sense as certain elements of the Great Tribulation had not been fulfilled such as the re-establishment of Israel.

 

[DP]

Darby and Schofield are not the first "peddlers" of a pre-tribulational catching away (harpadzo).
Some of the "early church fathers" also postulated and supported a pre-tribulational catching away. I don't support all of the teachings of the "early church fathers," but there is proof that this is not a new concept. Iraneus (c. 180AD) for example spoke about a pre-tribulational catching away. There are also many writings by the "early church fathers" on the imminence of the catching away, which doesn't line up with a post-tribulational catching away. However, many did believe they were already in the great tribulation, which at the time didn't make 100% sense as certain elements of the Great Tribulation had not been fulfilled such as the re-establishment of Israel.

No, actually there are no early Church father references to a Pre-trib Rapture. They were predominantly post-trib, which was the doctrine the Church had up to the time of the 1830's when Irving and Darby were the first to postulate it in some British Churches. Articles claiming an earlier history like the early Church fathers is Revisionist writings of modern writers.

 

[PlainWord]

As usual, you leave out portions of God's Word:

Isa 14:13
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
KJV

I sometimes shorten passages to save space.

Oh, but yes there is. You simply refuse to recognize it because it doesn't fit the doctrine of man you've been taught.

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, "Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

Doctrine of man?? I seldom listen to crazy man-made doctrines. As for this passage, I already explained to you that the temple John was to "measure" is in heaven. The word "measure" is the same as "determine" or count. John is to determine or count the saints in heaven and not count those Gentiles who are worshiping in the courtyard on the temple mount. Why? First because they built their temple (Dome of the Rock) in the wrong place. It doesn't stand over the site of the 2nd Jewish temple, rather it stands where the courtyard stood, next to the old temple. Second, because none of those people will enter the Kingdom of God, rather they are condemned already for following Islam (Satan's official religion).

That underlined part is the same 42 months timing of the reign of the "dragon" per Rev.13. Hard to miss that, since it also means that temple there is not one in Heaven, but on earth.

DP buddy!! You are confused. The 42 months in Rev 13 does not refer to the reign of the dragon, it refers to the reign of the Beast of the Sea.

The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast...

There are two entities, the BEAST and the DRAGON.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

The "he" is the Beast. The mouth is its leader. Who or whom is the Mouth of the Beast blaspheming?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

God, God's Name, God's tabernacle or temple in heaven, and those who dwell in heaven. He isn't blaspheming against anything on earth.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

All Muslims (Those who dwell on earth) will worship the Beast. It is specifically the Muslims whose names are not written in the Book because they have been following Satan since Ishmael and actually all the way back to Nimrod and Babel and even back to Ham and Canaan right after the flood when they took advantage of Noah's wife.

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" is about a standing temple in Jerusalem, not some back room at your local bar. It's the same reference to the temple like Acts 6:13.

The "abomination of desolation" from Daniel means an idol placed, per Dan.11:31. So all those Revelation verses you quoted cannot replace what these above Scriptures I'm showing is about.

Who so readeth let him understand" is the key phrase. When you see that, it means it is not obvious. If it was obvious, everyone would understand. If the A of D was to stand inside a third Jewish temple, why not just say that? Again, there is no teaching of a third, man-made Jewish Temple in any prophesy.

Notice it isn't "those in Jerusalem" are to flee? It is "all those in Judea are to flee" which is most of the country of Israel. The 10 northern tribes are already gone. Where are they to flee to? The "mountains" meaning the nations. Trust me, they are not fleeing to the mountains in and around Jerusalem or Judea. They would be easily found there. The whole country is the size of New Jersey. Not a lot of places for 8 million people to hide.

You're way off track, trying to throw the events of Scripture I've shown about the end of this world back to the time of Satan's original rebellion against God. That just isn't going to work. You have to learn to not skip over anything written in God's Word, for those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men are taught to do the same thing you're doing, i.e., skip over Scripture that doesn't agree with their doctrine of men.

LOL. This passage doesn't refer to the original rebellion. Satan was allowed access to heaven after Eden. We see twice in Job that Satan was still allowed to come and go from heaven. Job was long after Eden and after the flood.

Job 1:6-7

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Job 2:1-2

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Thus we see in Rev 12 that after War broke out in heaven, then Satan was no longer allowed there which implies he was allowed to go back and forth prior to this.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Please pay close attention to the following because there is going to be a quiz after.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

When did Salvation come, before or after Christ and the cross?
Do you see in the above that "the Power of Christ" had come?
Do you see that Satan had been accusing the Brethren day and night in heaven?

Based on the above, did the above happen at Eden or at some point after the cross?

 

[PlainWord]

I hope you realize what you just agreed to with that above statement. You agree that Satan is coming in place of Christ, with the image of man, upon this earth in the last days.

I don't recall saying, "In place of Christ." I implied that Satan comes in the form of a man claiming to be above everything that is in heaven which includes, Christ and God our Father and all the angels. Satan exalts himself above everything including Muhammad and Allah. Satan doesn't come impersonating Christ as many think. He disregards Christ, God and everyone else and basically claims to be EVERYTHING. He advances himself as ABOVE THEM ALL, a foreign god that his fathers did not know, not Jewish fathers, rather Muslim fathers.

2 Thes 2: and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Dan 11: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. [SUP]37 [/SUP]He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

There will be great confusion. Some will say, "It is the Christ." Some will say, "It is Muhammad." Some will say "it's the Mahdi", etc. He (Satan) will say, "forget all of them, I am above all of them." Basically Satan comes claiming to be GOD, not Christ.

BTW, this TEMPLE OF GOD is in HEAVEN. I suspect this is the reason for the war in heaven where Satan is finally cast out once and for all.

And the huge stones of the Wailing Wall still stand at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today to prove the 70 A.D. destruction was not the true fulfillment of that not one stone on top of another, but only a type.

This is a common mistake many make. The Wailing Wall wasn't part of the Temple. It was and is a retaining wall for the Temple Mount. Read closely. The Bible is very precise.

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

It is the BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE where not one stone will be left standing. Jesus did not address the retaining wall to the Temple Mount. In fact, part of the retaining wall was destroyed and rebuilt too.

The signs Jesus was giving His disciples (and us) upon the Mount of Olives are the signs of the Seals of Revelation 6, which Seals are for the end of this world. After all, Christ's 2nd coming and the end of the world was the timing His disciples asked Him about per Matt.24:1-3.

Read the question posed by the disciples again.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

It was a three part question:

When will the temple be destroyed?
What will be the sign of Your Coming?
What will be the sign of the end of the age?

Jesus told them as they were leaving the Temple complex and walked to the Mt. of Olives (which took maybe 10-15 minutes) that the buildings of the temple were to be thrown down. So when they got to Mt. of Olives:

Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be?

Look at Mark's account. Notice that neither Matthew, Mark or Luke were there yet they record the account. Look at Mark's account:

Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”


What were they discussing? The stones and buildings. Jesus clearly was talking about the buildings!!

I took the below picture two months ago. Notice the top of the wall has smaller, newer stones? Jesus was not talking about the retaining wall to the Temple Mount. If you have been to Jerusalem, you would know that this wall was not part of any building or temple. It is merely a wall that was and is used to retain the flat area above where the Temple once stood and where the Dome of the Rock now stands.

 

[popeye]

Darby and Schofield are not the first "peddlers" of a pre-tribulational catching away (harpadzo).
Some of the "early church fathers" also postulated and supported a pre-tribulational catching away. I don't support all of the teachings of the "early church fathers," but there is proof that this is not a new concept. Iraneus (c. 180AD) for example spoke about a pre-tribulational catching away. There are also many writings by the "early church fathers" on the imminence of the catching away, which doesn't line up with a post-tribulational catching away. However, many did believe they were already in the great tribulation, which at the time didn't make 100% sense as certain elements of the Great Tribulation had not been fulfilled such as the re-establishment of Israel.

Yes
Postrib mess has been debunked.

The Catholics murdered "heretics" and burned their writings.
You and I would be heretics at that time.
Postrib error survived.

See how messed up they are?
Like I said,their core theory is from men. Dead men.

 

[popeye]

No, actually there are no early Church father references to a Pre-trib Rapture. They were predominantly post-trib, which was the doctrine the Church had up to the time of the 1830's when Irving and Darby were the first to postulate it in some British Churches. Articles claiming an earlier history like the early Church fathers is Revisionist writings of modern writers.

Well that is false,but because you don't know that it proves men are guiding you or you would do your own homework.

Also proves you use as a base the beliefs of dead men.

 

[popeye]

Darby and Schofield are not the first "peddlers" of a pre-tribulational catching away (harpadzo).
Some of the "early church fathers" also postulated and supported a pre-tribulational catching away. I don't support all of the teachings of the "early church fathers," but there is proof that this is not a new concept. Iraneus (c. 180AD) for example spoke about a pre-tribulational catching away. There are also many writings by the "early church fathers" on the imminence of the catching away, which doesn't line up with a post-tribulational catching away. However, many did believe they were already in the great tribulation, which at the time didn't make 100% sense as certain elements of the Great Tribulation had not been fulfilled such as the re-establishment of Israel.

Israel becoming a nation woke up the Berean.

Postrib theory took a huge hit.

That is why they go extra biblical.
That is why "dispensation" scares them silly

 

[PlainWord]

Here's what you left out of that quote...

Rev 11:2
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

I underlined in your quote a very important clue. What does the KJV say? The court is without the temple? This tells us the TEMPLE IS NOT THERE!! This is because the Temple was destroyed in AD 70. In it's place, 618 years later the Dome of the Rock was constructed. The Dome of the Rock was built where the COURTYARD of the TEMPLE once stood.

What is the Abomination of Desolation?

To answer that, you must first understand who the "DESOLATE" are. They are the ones who are consumed.

"...Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

In other words, "Even until fire is poured out upon those who are to be consumed." Fire is poured out. Did you see that? Poured out like from a bowl.

Paul puts it like this in 2 Thes 1 (shortened for effect)

...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

Flaming Fire Vengeance on who? Not the Jews. It is upon those who do not know GOD!!!

Again, who are the desolate? Again, Paul tells us in Gal 4 and makes clear they are the children of Hagar, the Egyptian, the Bondwoman - the predecessor or Mother of Muslims. Indeed, there are many, many more Muslims than Jews. The Jews have a husband and He is God. The Muslims do not have a husband yet they have many children.

"For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.”

In Gal 4 above, Paul is quoting Isaiah 54 below:

“Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child!
For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.

Who is Isaiah and Paul talking about? What people? The married woman has few children. The desolate have a lot of children.

Muslims 1.5 Billion
Jews ~ 16 million worldwide

John paints us the picture of the bondwoman who has no husband in Rev 18:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’

This is the HARLOT. She has no husband yet she has a lot of children, 1.53 billion today to be exact. What does Jesus say?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Who are the pregnant?

What all of this means is that the DESOLATE = MUSLIMS will place an ABOMINATION TO GOD in a place where it ought not be, at a holy location. The word, TEMPLE, is not used. The reason it is not used is because THERE IS NO TEMPLE. What is near where the old temple stood?

Look closely at the below picture. If you were God, would you consider the below to be an ABOMINATION?

Look closely at the top of the Dome of the Rock. It is the Muslim Moon symbol which represents, "the soaring ascent to heaven, its circle representing the wholeness and balance essential to the Muslim faith." This is the location where Muhammad claimed to have took off on his "white horse-like" creature to heaven. But Muslims are not going to heaven, are they? John tells us where they go instead.