Can a christian lose their salvation

[Bookends]

so these gnostics believed that when people are born-again in Christ....they are sealed with the Holy Spirit...and that Jesus said.." No one can pluck them out of My hands....and no one can pluck them out of My Father's hands.."..the gnostics believe in what Jesus said was true and that He wasn't a liar?.......they sound almost Christian like eh?

This passage is used over and over, does "no one" include yourself? That's the question. If I say no one can make me eat spinach, does that mean I can't make myself eat it?

No one has explained to me how one could be grafted into the cultivated olive tree in Romans 11 and remain secure even when Paul says to beware for even if God didn't save the natural branches, He might not save you either. Paul tells us to be aware of the Goodness of God and the severity of God, for if we don't hold onto the Goodness, we could be cut off. Doesn't the tree represent Christ? Doesn't being grafted into it relate to one's salvation through Christ? If what you say, OSAS is true, how could one be cut off? This is a clear passage btw.

 

[Bookends]

Well if it did I am sorry, But what I fear is you like so many want to look for key words. and assume you know what others believe based on certain things they say.

My point was, and still is, People go to hell by choice, for the rest of us, God saved us (because we can not save ourselves. Not because of some fatalistic calvanistic view that God chose me and not them)



Grace THROUGH faith.

He who believes (has true saving faith) is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already, because they have rejected Gods provision (have not believed)

There is no middle ground, Your not condemned, (saved forever, have eternal life) or your in a state of condemnation and have to repent and trust God before it is too late.

I agree, there is no middle ground, either you're saved and secure in Christ, or you're not and you'll die in your sins and goto Hell.

The question is, once you in Christ, is it possible to take yourself out of Christ by unbelief and denial of Him? Paul seems to think so, again going back to the cultivated olive tree, a clear passage. Makes no sense for Paul to even mention and warn gentile Christians that God could cut you off as well.

 

[Grace777x70]

That is nice humanistic thinking to say you can eat spinach if you want to...but we are talking about the integrity of the word of Christ.."No-one can pluck them out of His hand.."..."No one can pluck them out of the Father's hand...."

In order to pluck yourself out of God's hands....there is a way..

You have to be NOT a "no one"... so no one means every one else but us/you.....

All's you do is wrestle yourself out of Jesus' hand..then once you have Him beat..then you are ready to take on the Father. ( He's a little tougher but you will have experience now on how to pluck yourself out of His hand )

In order to scare Jesus and the Father first you must..I repeat MUST intimidate Them with your mighty power by verbally accusing Them....you can tell them that they lied when He said " I will never leave nor forsake you"

That's one scenario for getting our mighty selves out of the hands of God.

As far as romans 11..I have not really looked at that..but I'm sure it will not conflict with the integrity of the "known" truths of the great salvation we have it our Lord Jesus.

Even though we try with our natural minds to make sense of obscure scriptures, they need to be looked at the "lens" of known truths and prayerfully examined in this light.

This passage is used over and over, does "no one" include yourself? That's the question. If I say no one can make me eat spinach, does that mean I can't make myself eat it?

No one has explained to me how one could be grafted into the cultivated olive tree in Romans 11 and remain secure even when Paul says to beware for even if God didn't save the natural branches, He might not save you either. Paul tells us to be aware of the Goodness of God and the severity of God, for if we don't hold onto the Goodness, we could be cut off. Doesn't the tree represent Christ? Doesn't being grafted into it relate to one's salvation through Christ? If what you say, OSAS is true, how could one be cut off? This is a clear passage btw.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a teaching for anyone interested in Romans 11...it may shed some more light ....

Consider the Severity of God (Romans 11:22) – Escape to Reality

 

[Bookends]

Because they are seduced by lies:

1 Timothy 4 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

This has been going on through-out Church history, it's not an indication that Christ will come soon. The writer of Hebrews, Paul, John, James and perhaps Peter all wrote as if they were living in the last days. Therefore, these last days IMO, are referring to the last "dispensation" which our current age, which is the New Man, Christ (the head) and corporate Christ (the body of Christ). Humanity has been living in the last days for over 2000+ years and we don't know when or how long it will last.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, there is no middle ground, either you're saved and secure in Christ, or you're not and you'll die in your sins and goto Hell.

The question is, once you in Christ, is it possible to take yourself out of Christ by unbelief and denial of Him? Paul seems to think so, again going back to the cultivated olive tree, a clear passage. Makes no sense for Paul to even mention and warn gentile Christians that God could cut you off as well.

Thats your interpretation.

It makes complete sense if Paul was warning the gentile church, not to make the same mistake as Israel did, and become anti-Jewish (as Israel was Anti_Gentile) And not to make the same mistake as Israel did, as thinking they are Gods chosen, and everyone else is an outcast, or below them (As paul said, do not be ignorant, and do not be wise in your own opinion) That just as quickly as God cut Israel off, he can cut the gentiles off also. (not speaking of any individual but a group of people)

But thats our point of contention. You do not see the mystery paul spoke of. that we gentiles should not be in denial of and think we are wise.. as I see it, you see it a different way,

We are still left with the fact. John said plainly. Those who left the faith were never of us, if they were of us, they would have never left.

So you can not make Romans 11 contradict what John said.

 

[Bookends]

Here is a teaching for anyone interested in Romans 11...it may shed some more light ....

Consider the Severity of God (Romans 11:22) – Escape to Reality

I read the first few sentences of that article and then discarded it as rubbish. Paul isn't talking about remaining in God's Goodness through works, and never am I. Paul never mentions our works in this passage of the cultivated olive tree. Paul clearly teaches that what keeps you in is your belief and what cuts you off is unbelief, not works. The writer of this article assumes that all who disagree or questions his position of OSAS believe that works are a requirement of salvation. I don't hold that view, however I do believe good works are a byproduct of salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I read the first few sentences of that article and then discarded it as rubbish. Paul isn't talking about remaining in God's Goodness through works, and never am I. Paul never mentions our works in this passage of the cultivated olive tree. Paul clearly teaches that what keeps you in is your belief and what cuts you off is unbelief, not works. The writer of this article assumes that all who disagree or questions his position of OSAS believe that works are a requirement of salvation. I don't hold that view, however I do believe good works are a byproduct of salvation.

This is what I mean, You read something, and assume something.. You never even gave it a chance.. Not That I read all of it. nor could I say I agree wiht it because I did not read all of it. But you did not even listen to his main point.

If you read further, You would see this person is talking about eternal security, and one of the things used against eternal security is romans 11. The point you read was the argument used..

 

[psychomom]

hopping in at the end again...

i believe it was John MacArthur who said (my poor paraphrase)

if you could lose 'your' salvation, you would have

 

[Grace777x70]

I love psycho moms!!..good one!

hopping in at the end again...

i believe it was John MacArthur who said (my poor paraphrase)

if you could lose 'your' salvation, you would have

 

[MsLimpet]

One and the same. If I give you a house and you must still pay the property taxes then it isn't free. Sure a gift, but costly if you can't afford it. In the same way how costly would it be for us to only enter into salvation and then must maintain it by our own deed. How many Christ would lose... with such a self-righteous gospel. How hopeless our endeavor to think we are capable. No, the foundation is sure and that is Jesus Christ and none other. Not myself, not you, and not any man is capable of maintaining salvation apart from Jesus (and His sacrifice).

Altogether we are hopeless without Him... yet people would have us believe Christ did one lap and passed us the baton, knowing fully well how imperfect we are. Do you think Jesus, loving you ever so much, would give you the opportunity to fall out of His hands once in? You came in and His grip is secure. Is Christ clumsy? No. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, He is our Advocate and High Priest ever interceding on our behalf. Stop striving and enter His rest, that is the simplicity of the Gospel.

Matthew 10:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Judas Iscariot is referred to by Luke as the traitor. His name is brought last because he was least respected of the apostles.

John 6:70-71 (KJV)

[SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
[SUP]71 [/SUP]He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Twelve were chosen, all had the potential of becoming faithful and dependable disciples. Judas lost his commitment to the Lord and became unfaithful. He is called "a devil," because he became possessed with the characteristics of the devil, being deceptive and diabolical, as the devil is.

I appointed, I chose, I selected, yet one of this group I chose is now a "devil." He spoke of Judas who later betrayed him.

He later hung himself, did he not lose his salvation?

 

[Bookends]

Thats your interpretation.

It makes complete sense if Paul was warning the gentile church, not to make the same mistake as Israel did, and become anti-Jewish (as Israel was Anti_Gentile) And not to make the same mistake as Israel did, as thinking they are Gods chosen, and everyone else is an outcast, or below them (As paul said, do not be ignorant, and do not be wise in your own opinion) That just as quickly as God cut Israel off, he can cut the gentiles off also. (not speaking of any individual but a group of people)

But thats our point of contention. You do not see the mystery paul spoke of. that we gentiles should not be in denial of and think we are wise.. as I see it, you see it a different way,

We are still left with the fact. John said plainly. Those who left the faith were never of us, if they were of us, they would have never left.

So you can not make Romans 11 contradict what John said.

I getting called out to investigate an outage so I can't respond to as I'd like to. But I will say this, Paul is not talking about group salvation (Israel vs gentile), Paul just got done telling us that him being a Jew, a pharisee, means nothing, and that just because you are Jewish does mean you are a real (spiritually) Jew.

I'll be back..

 

[Grace777x70]

This can be a common mis-understanding...

I think Judas would have had to be born-again first in order to even "lose his salvation"...Jesus had not died on the cross yet for the sins of the world..nor was raised for our justification.

Things in the gospels take on new meaning when you view all scripture throught the "lens" of the finished work of Jesus on our behalf.

Matthew 10:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Judas Iscariot is referred to by Luke as the traitor. His name is brought last because he was least respected of the apostles.

John 6:70-71 (KJV)

[SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
[SUP]71 [/SUP]He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.


Twelve were chosen, all had the potential of becoming faithful and dependable disciples. Judas lost his commitment to the Lord and became unfaithful. He is called "a devil," because he became possessed with the characteristics of the devil, being deceptive and diabolical, as the devil is.

I appointed, I chose, I selected, yet one of this group I chose is now a "devil." He spoke of Judas who later betrayed him.

He later hung himself, did he not lose his salvation?

 

[notuptome]

How do we or can we distinguish between someone who is religious and a true born again Christian?

Pretenders cannot endure and fail when they stand before the Lord.

Born again Christians often fail yet they will stand before the Lord without fear.

My personal rule is that the more someone endeavors to look religious the less likely they are born again Christians. Those who are born again Christians cannot hide themselves as they are candles lit in a dark world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I getting called out to investigate an outage so I can't respond to as I'd like to. But I will say this, Paul is not talking about group salvation (Israel vs gentile), Paul just got done telling us that him being a Jew, a pharisee, means nothing, and that just because you are Jewish does mean you are a real (spiritually) Jew.

I'll be back..

your right, he is not talking about salvation period

 

[AboundingGrace]

hopping in at the end again...

i believe it was John MacArthur who said (my poor paraphrase)

if you could lose 'your' salvation, you would have

If I may comment.. if that quote is meant to be some positive statement, I don't see it. The way it sounds to me is, "possibilities by adversities abound therefore, you will eventually lose your salvation." But I don't think that you intended that, but rather you intended the eternal security view... that just as God saved you without your effort, he will keep you from losing your salvation without your effort.

But that doesn't take into account all of the verses of scripture that indicate that the person who doesn't maintain his walk with the LORD will drift away from it and be lost like the proverbial lost sheep, or the prodigal son.

If eternal security is so secure, then people departing from faith wouldn't exist, but they do.

Here is an article (no affiliation) on the quote above by John MacArthur.
Cerebral Faith: If You Could Lose Your Salvation, You Would?

 

[MsLimpet]

This can be a common mis-understanding...

I think Judas would have had to be born-again first in order to even "lose his salvation"...Jesus had not died on the cross yet for the sins of the world..nor was raised for our justification.

Things in the gospels take on new meaning when you view all scripture throught the "lens" of the finished work of Jesus on our behalf.

The point I was making is yes, we can lose our salvation. e.g. freewill, choices, money, greed, etc.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I may comment.. if that quote is meant to be some positive statement, I don't see it. The way it sounds to me is, "possibilities by adversities abound therefore, you will eventually lose your salvation." But I don't think that you intended that, but rather you intended the eternal security view... that just as God saved you without your effort, he will keep you from losing your salvation without your effort.

But that doesn't take into account all of the verses of scripture that indicate that the person who doesn't maintain his walk with the LORD will drift away from it and be lost like the proverbial lost sheep, or the prodigal son.

If eternal security is so secure, then people departing from faith wouldn't exist, but they do.

Here is an article (no affiliation) on the quote above by John MacArthur.
Cerebral Faith: If You Could Lose Your Salvation, You Would?

I see it differently.

I see it as saying a fact of life. In our best day on earth we deserve hell.. So on our best day, if eternal life could be lost. It would have been lost..

 

[crossnote]

If you think that a gift is not a gift because you have to maintain it, you're mind is very muddled and confused. You were given the gift of life when you were born. Was it not a gift because you've had to maintain it? Don't you see how silly that is? Eternal life is no different.

The gift comes as a complete package...the KEEPER is included.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[KennethC]

The point I was making is yes, we can lose our salvation. e.g. freewill, choices, money, greed, etc.

You are on the right thinking path, just as long as you know it all boils down to either believing or not believing.

The focus even though they are the stepping stones to either one of those should not be on the works in general, as the way a person carries themselves will show if the Holy Spirit abides in them or not.

If the person's actions show no evidence of the fruit of the Spirit = no salvation

If the person's actions do show the fruit = salvation in Christ

Thus the fruit are evidence of the faith in Him, and no fruit is evidence of no faith in Him.

Believers can still faulter and sin at times but we can not continue to live deliberate sinful lives, as that is still walking in darkness or unbelief !!!