Can a christian lose their salvation

[KennethC]

The gift comes as a complete package...the KEEPER is included.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Good scripture that applies to those who keep their confidence and continue in the faith.........

For even the Apostle Paul knew and taught that the receiver of the gift can refuse/reject it at any time, thus is why he warned believers so many times in scriptures what to watch out for so that their confidence is not shaken to where they end up leaving the faith !!!

 

[AboundingGrace]

I see it differently.

I see it as saying a fact of life. In our best day on earth we deserve hell.. So on our best day, if eternal life could be lost. It would have been lost..

So, are you saying that if it ever was possible, then it would still be possible?

 

[Bookends]

How do we or can we distinguish between someone who is religious and a true born again Christian?

Pretenders cannot endure and fail when they stand before the Lord.

Born again Christians often fail yet they will stand before the Lord without fear.

My personal rule is that the more someone endeavors to look religious the less likely they are born again Christians. Those who are born again Christians cannot hide themselves as they are candles lit in a dark world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Those who stand out as a light to the world are often looked upon by the world as religious, no matter if they perform religious activities or not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, are you saying that if it ever was possible, then it would still be possible?

I am saying, if it were possible. Everyone already lost it. Because no one can ever earn it..

 

[Bookends]

your right, he is not talking about salvation period

He is talking about salvation, personal salvation, not necessarily the "how" in detail, but the root of it. There is no such thing as group salvation (just because you belong to a certain group, ethnic, religious, etc. doesn't mean a thing). Being in the cultivated olive tree is being in Christ, Paul is talking about how those are broke off and grafted in either by unbelief or belief. This can't be a nationalistic application, it just won't work.

Anyhow, I'm tried of discussion this for now.

 

[KennethC]

In order for something to be lost, does not mean it has to be earned in the first place !!!

You can lose things you never earned..........

For example somebody gives you a gift for your birthday or Christmas or just because they wanted you to have it, you didn't do nothing to earn those gifts. Yet one day you set it down and misplaced it never to see it again !!!

You just lost something you never earned................

A free gift does not have to be earned in order to lose it, but a person can reject the gift that is offered to them !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He is talking about salvation, personal salvation, not necessarily the "how" in detail, but the root of it. There is no such thing as group salvation (just because you belong to a certain group, ethnic, religious, etc. doesn't mean a thing). Being in the cultivated olive tree is being in Christ, Paul is talking about how those are broke off and grafted in either by unbelief or belief. This can't be a nationalistic application, it just won't work.

Anyhow, I'm tried of discussion this for now.

Again Your foundation is different than mine. Thats why we will never agree,

Again, It is not talking about salvation. You are placed into the vine to produce fruit, not be saved. The context is Israel vs Gentile. Who has control of Gods word. Who is given the responsibility of being God representation.

Isreal had a few thousand years, They failed over and over. So God took it from them, and gave it to the gentiles. Pauls warning is for us to not be ignorant of the mystery, and we have some how made it.

Either way, Again it does not matter. John said a person who left never was saved. So you can not use it anyway without causing a major contradiction in the word of God.

The word of God is not Romans 11. It is the whole book.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In order for something to be lost, does not mean it has to be earned in the first place !!!

You can lose things you never earned..........

For example somebody gives you a gift for your birthday or Christmas or just because they wanted you to have it, you didn't do nothing to earn those gifts. Yet one day you set it down and misplaced it never to see it again !!!

You just lost something you never earned................

A free gift does not have to be earned in order to lose it, but a person can reject the gift that is offered to them !!!

BUT this free gift comes as "birth" - birth into the household of God. I can't give back birth - even if I were to decide I didn't want God as my heavenly Father anymore - HOW do I get rid of a "new birth"? - HOW do I get rid of something that was created in me when I was born again of the Spirit?

Just asking because it's something I have been wondering about! . . . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In order for something to be lost, does not mean it has to be earned in the first place !!!

You can lose things you never earned..........

For example somebody gives you a gift for your birthday or Christmas or just because they wanted you to have it, you didn't do nothing to earn those gifts. Yet one day you set it down and misplaced it never to see it again !!!

You just lost something you never earned................

A free gift does not have to be earned in order to lose it, but a person can reject the gift that is offered to them !!!

Yep, its all about us, God has nothing to do with it..

God will leave the whole flock to find the one lost sheep. Who will hear his voice and come after him. But he will not take the gift, and make sure you never lose sight of it..

I know you have me on ignore. But if you just listened to some of the stuff you say. You would realise how it sounds, And you would be talking to you as I am..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

BUT this free gift comes as "birth" - birth into the household of God. I can't give back birth - even if I were to decide I didn't want God as my heavenly Father anymore - HOW do I get rid of a "new birth"? - HOW do I get rid of something that was created in me when I was born again of the Spirit?

Just asking because it's something I have been wondering about! . . . .

Yep. How can I lose my father? Even if I run to the other side of the world. He is still my father. Nothing can change that.

 

[KennethC]

BUT this free gift comes as "birth" - birth into the household of God. I can't give back birth - even if I were to decide I didn't want God as my heavenly Father anymore - HOW do I get rid of a "new birth"? - HOW do I get rid of something that was created in me when I was born again of the Spirit?

Just asking because it's something I have been wondering about! . . . .

Wrong, Hebrews 6 speaks on those who once partook of the receiving of the Holy Spirit that then turned away from God and left the faith.

You get rid of it by if you place your faith and trust in your worldly possessions and life, rather then keep it focused solely on Jesus and His ways.

Again nowhere in the bible is there a teaching that we do nothing, and I am going to do some research in that in my next in depth study session to see when that started to be taught.

Right now I am into prophecy learning, but I will get to that to because I see this mentioned a lot that Christ did it all and we do nothing. There is nothing in Jesus, Paul, James, or John's writings that would suggest that.

That would place the Holy Spirit as a puppet master and not the helper that He is, and Jesus said He is our helper.......

Helper means we still play a part in God's plan too !!!

Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy, how can a unbeliever who does not have the Holy Spirit commit this sin ???

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen EG! How can you "stop" the fact that you were born after you were born?..How can we "un-birth" ourselves after we have been "born again as peacfulbeliever says?....

Yep. How can I lose my father? Even if I run to the other side of the world. He is still my father. Nothing can change that.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter on the grace of God.....I love that chapter...

Heb 6:4-8 talks about the Jews goint back to the temple worship for sacrifices for sins.. that reject Jesus sacrifice

..then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..

Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation"
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."

He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.

Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those depending on the temple system.

 

[KennethC]

Amen EG! How can you "stop" the fact that you were born after you were born?..How can we "un-birth" ourselves after we have been "born again as peacfulbeliever says?....

Do you know what grieve the Holy Spirit means, that Paul warned not to do ???

The problem is looking at it only from the view point of God never leaving or forsaking us, and ignoring the fact taught in scripture that people can turn from and reject Him.

Do you think God is going to give eternal life to those who reject Him ???

If the doctrine you go by is true then every hyper-grace or OSAS person would have to admit that all Catholic's are saved too !!!

If salvation can't be lost then no matter how many things the Catholic's do that is contradictory to the scriptures would not matter, they would still be saved because they have Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to !!!

If you say no they don't then you must admit that our actions matter, again would make the doctrine a lie.

One of the verses used commonly to defend this stance of born again or being unborn as you state is Ephesians 4:30, but the context there is misapplied to say it is saying the seal can't be broken. The issue is that Ephesians 4:3 is overlooked in this, which shows that unity with the Holy Spirit can be broken !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

....and what grieves the Holy Spirit is not giving words of grace..that is what grieves the Holy Spirit...Ephesians 4:29-30 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The only time Jesus was recorded as being angry was when the Pharisees failed to let grace be done when Jesus when to heal a man..

Mark 3:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

 

[KennethC]

Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter on the grace of God.....I love that chapter...

Heb 6:4-8 talks about the Jews goint back to the temple worship for sacrifices for sins.. that reject Jesus sacrifice

..then in verse 9 it talks about us believers..

Hebrews 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Here the author of Hebrews is speaking to the "Beloved"..that is us Christians that have accepted Jesus as our sacrifice...and he talks about "things that accompany salvation"
He wanted them to know that the verses 4-8 was not for them..which is why he said.."..though we are speaking in this way."

He didn't want them to put themselves - the true believers in that category.

Hebrews 6 is a beautiful chapter about the love and grace of Christ for us believers...not so good for those depending on the temple system.

There is no Jew or Greek in the new covenant, all believers are under the same gospel of Christ !!!

If they have been partakers of the Holy Spirit that makes them believers in Christ, and it would be wrong to separate them from the rest of believers.

You can not be a unbeliever and partaker of the Holy Spirit !!!

 

[KennethC]

....and what grieves the Holy Spirit is not giving words of grace..that is what grieves the Holy Spirit...Ephesians 4:29-30 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The only time Jesus was recorded as being angry was when the Pharisees failed to let grace be done when Jesus when to heal a man..

Mark 3:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

No that is not what is being said as Paul clearly is talking just before this about continuing to live deliberate sinful lives, that is what grieves the Holy Spirit.

Those who steal are to steal no longer.............verse 28

Also in verses 31 speaks on putting away all sinful behaviors and actions.......

This is about preaching the whole truth of God, and part of that truth is letting people know they can not continue in those sinful behaviors !!!

 

[Bookends]

Again Your foundation is different than mine. Thats why we will never agree,

Again, It is not talking about salvation. You are placed into the vine to produce fruit, not be saved. The context is Israel vs Gentile. Who has control of Gods word. Who is given the responsibility of being God representation.

Isreal had a few thousand years, They failed over and over. So God took it from them, and gave it to the gentiles. Pauls warning is for us to not be ignorant of the mystery, and we have some how made it.

Either way, Again it does not matter. John said a person who left never was saved. So you can not use it anyway without causing a major contradiction in the word of God.

The word of God is not Romans 11. It is the whole book.

Paul isn't talking about producing fruit in this application, he talking being in or belonging to the family of God by using the picture of a cultivated olive tree.

This may come to news to you, but Israel was never selected or chosen for salvation. They, Abraham, was chosen to be a missionary to the world. The Abrahamic covenant was a promise to Abraham that his seed (singular, meaning Christ) will bring blessings to all families of every nation (this was unconditional). The promise was that all nations will be blessed through him. And the sign of this covenant was circumcision, not natural descent. Anyone, gentiles, could be included and were included, as long as they were circumcised. If a natural Jew wasn't circumcised, they were to be cast out of the covenant. The Jews were never selected or chosen specifically for salvation, even though many were saved as a consequence of God choosing Abraham for God's plan of redemption.

2nd, John gives one example of someone leaving the church because they weren't "part or of them", John is not saying this applies to everyone who leaves the church or loses their faith. John is not building a church doctrine here.

God took the Kingdom from the religious leaders of Israel and gave not to just gentiles, but first to the Jews, who do you think 12 disciples were? They were Israelites! The remnant! Luke 12:32, Jesus speaking to Jewish disciples of Christ, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom."

 

[Grace777x70]

This is so grossly out of context....as if the unity of the Spirit means one can "unseal" the redemption that is in Christ.

Your religious beliefs are taking you for a snow ride my brother!

here is the scripture in context..

Ephesians 4:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

.
One of the verses used commonly to defend this stance of born again or being unborn as you state is Ephesians 4:30, but the context there is misapplied to say it is saying the seal can't be broken. The issue is that Ephesians 4:3 is overlooked in this, which shows that unity with the Holy Spirit can be broken !!!

 

[Grace777x70]

Your religion is blinding you.....this is a waste of time..I can see that...

No that is not what is being said as Paul clearly is talking just before this about continuing to live deliberate sinful lives, that is what grieves the Holy Spirit.

Those who steal are to steal no longer.............verse 28

Also in verses 31 speaks on putting away all sinful behaviors and actions.......

This is about preaching the whole truth of God, and part of that truth is letting people know they can not continue in those sinful behaviors !!!