walk in the light

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's what the gnostics thought. In fact, they thought Christians were lower lifeforms for thinking that way, and not possessing the special knowledge that they were incorruptible spiritual beings. Just like you teach.

Actually that's not what they thought.

Like I said, you don't know what you're talking about.

And committing many other abominations and impieties, [the gnostics] run us [Christians] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed.

Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while [the gnostics] have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, they say, are these persons. Wherefore also [the gnostics] maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature.​

 

[KennethC]

The Corinthian church was full of believers who thought they could live however and do whatever they wanted !!!

Apostle Paul in his letter squashed that and told the other members if they continued to refuse to give up their sinful ways to kick them out of the church and completely shun them....

Apostle John

1 John 3:18

"My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and truth."

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Corinthian church was full of believers who thought they could live however and do whatever they wanted !!!

Apostle Paul in his letter squashed that and told the other members if they continued to refuse to give up their sinful ways to kick them out of the church and completely shun them....

Apostle John

1 John 3:18

"My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and truth."

Pray tell, what way do you think Christians "want" to live?

 

[posthuman]

Paul even says in Acts 20:28-31 that he warned these people day and night for 3 years in tears..........

Day and night for 3 years in tears warning these people, that sounds clearly more is at stake then just a loss of rewards !!!

so -- contextually -- what did he warn about?

19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents.
20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.
21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.​

i see that he considered his major 'opponents' in the gospel to be Jews (presumably those wanting to place believers under the law, consistent with the other epistles and the discussion at the council in Jerusalem)
and that what he preached was both turning to God in repentance and placing faith in Christ.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
​

and he warns of false teaching - primarily from outside (contextually, the Judaizers) but even from within the body of believers itself.
since he states what he's preached for 3 years, to all men - that we should turn to God in repentance and have faith in Christ - can't we assume that the 'distortion' he's warned about is relative to this; that it is two-fold: neglecting to repent, or turning toward something other than God when we do so, and placing faith in something or someone other than Christ?

it seems to me that Paul's purpose in warning was that we should both be careful to 'keep ourselves unspotted' and that we should trust in Christ's finished work, not our own works.
Paul neither preached licentiousness nor did he preach earning or keeping salvation by our own merit - when he spoke of falling out of grace, he spoke of it in terms of 'departing from the faith' right? i.e. putting that faith in works or in merit. and when he spoke of those practicing sin, he spoke of them as being subject to the destruction of their own flesh, but the hope of the salvation of their souls not being absent - right?

like i said in another thread - if we proclaim the same gospel Paul does, we're neither putting faith in works nor are we teaching permissive lifestyle. living righteously does not save or keep us, and we are saved unto living righteously.
we should be encouraging each other to do what is right at the same time that we rejoice in the free gift of grace that covers us. i believe this is what the apostles example for us is.


(( keeps trying to be a peacemaker among brothers ))

 

[KennethC]

I definitely agree because He is love. And eternal life is know Him. And when you know Love Himself you are transformed more like Him which means you love one another. And this is the commandment of Christ. And love fulfills all the law.

C.

Yes love does fulfill the law.........

That fulfillment though is not voiding it or doing away with it as some try to teach now days, as even the Apostle Paul says by faith we establish the law (Romans 3:31) and upholds all the commandments (Romans 13:9-10) including the 10.

By walking in love we will not cause harm to self and others, and transgression the law (sinning) is causing harm to self and others !!!

 

[Cee]

I love your passion

One thing to keep in mind about Acts 20:31 is that he was speaking to the elders...

17Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. 18And when they came to him, he said to them:

Paul was extremely concerned about false teachers entering the church of Ephesus and he told the elders about false teaching repeatedly... unfortunately... one generation later we find in Revelation that Christ gave them a warning...

Rev 2:4 [SUP]4 [/SUP]But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[SUP][b][/SUP] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

We see how important love is...

C.

Who's context are you speaking of though, because I have seen you take scripture and apply the wrong context to it to because you have listened to other men on how to interpret it.

Just yesterday we had a discussion on Ephesians 4:17-32, where I mentioned how this passage was speaking how we can no longer walk in the sinful ways we previously walked. That the grieving the Holy Spirit is tied to these scriptures, and does not stand alone.

You called my understanding faulty when it is not because it is exactly what Paul is stating there............

I understand context and also know scripture can not be pulled and used to stand alone, scripture must be used to interpret scripture. Making scriptures stand alone will almost always lead to the wrong context !!!

What scripture are asking for specifically, because there is a number of passages that speak on believers getting drawn away and deceived by false teaching ????

There is not just one scripture that speaks on this................

Paul even says in Acts 20:28-31 that he warned these people day and night for 3 years in tears..........

Day and night for 3 years in tears warning these people, that sounds clearly more is at stake then just a loss of rewards !!!

 

[KennethC]

so -- contextually -- what did he warn about?

19 I served the Lord with great humility and with tears and in the midst of severe testing by the plots of my Jewish opponents.
20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house.
21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.​

i see that he considered his major 'opponents' in the gospel to be Jews (presumably those wanting to place believers under the law, consistent with the other epistles and the discussion at the council in Jerusalem)
and that what he preached was both turning to God in repentance and placing faith in Christ.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
​

and he warns of false teaching - primarily from outside (contextually, the Judaizers) but even from within the body of believers itself.
since he states what he's preached for 3 years, to all men - that we should turn to God in repentance and have faith in Christ - can't we assume that the 'distortion' he's warned about is relative to this; that it is two-fold: neglecting to repent, or turning toward something other than God when we do so, and placing faith in something or someone other than Christ?

it seems to me that Paul's purpose in warning was that we should both be careful to 'keep ourselves unspotted' and that we should trust in Christ's finished work, not our own works.
Paul neither preached licentiousness nor did he preach earning or keeping salvation by our own merit - when he spoke of falling out of grace, he spoke of it in terms of 'departing from the faith' right? i.e. putting that faith in works or in merit. and when he spoke of those practicing sin, he spoke of them as being subject to the destruction of their own flesh, but the hope of the salvation of their souls not being absent - right?

like i said in another thread - if we proclaim the same gospel Paul does, we're neither putting faith in works nor are we teaching permissive lifestyle. living righteously does not save or keep us, and we are saved unto living righteously.
we should be encouraging each other to do what is right at the same time that we rejoice in the free gift of grace that covers us. i believe this is what the apostles example for us is.


(( keeps trying to be a peacemaker among brothers ))

You are right in the fact of the warning of false doctrine coming from both outside and within the body, but as for still placing the consequences only as that of fleshly worldly consequences no.

In 1 Corinthians 5 when Paul speaks on the destruction of the flesh, he is saying to let the person who refuses to give up their sinful ways fall and hopefully leaving them on their own to fall will bring them to repent so that they can be saved at the time of judgment.

I am glad you brought up Acts 20:21 because some believe that Paul did not preach repentance, even though he did here and as well other places such as 2 Corinthians 7:10.

Nobody again is saying works earn salvation and I would appreciate if this lie would stop being passed around !!!

Paul just as John and James did preached our actions are proof of those who are saved in Christ, and they get this understanding because Jesus preached the same way.

The other thing we must continue to do is stop placing works of the faith as the same as self effort works or works done of our own merit !!!

The written ordinances of the Mosaic law is what we are not under, the morality of God still applies..............

Those seeking justification by the law as the Galatians did, were trying to still keep every single written ordinance and claiming perfection off of how good they could keep them.

They were not seeking their perfection and justification through Jesus by doing as the Lord commanded !!!

This is where the whole debate comes to a never ending argument because people have been taught obedience to Jesus Christs teaching places us under the law. That is not true !!!


As for the Galatians are concerned Paul told them they were following another gospel, Christ has become of no effect to them, and they have fallen from grace !!!

Following a false gospel, no remission of sins, and not under grace.......Do those three sound like they will receive eternal life through Christ ??? No as is clearly warned in the Word of God !!!

 

[KennethC]

I love your passion

One thing to keep in mind about Acts 20:31 is that he was speaking to the elders...

17Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. 18And when they came to him, he said to them:

Paul was extremely concerned about false teachers entering the church of Ephesus and he told the elders about false teaching repeatedly... unfortunately... one generation later we find in Revelation that Christ gave them a warning...

Rev 2:4 [SUP]4 [/SUP]But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[SUP][b][/SUP] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

We see how important love is...

C.

Yes that is true that he was speaking to the elders of the church, because that is if they are teaching falsely or allowing false teaching to enter the church then those who are listening in the congregation will be brought to ruin as well.

Following a false gospel will not lead to eternal life through Christ........

Paul warned that just because the name Jesus is mentioned, it may not be the Son of God that is actually being taught.

Which is why we are to test all men to make sure their teachings align with Christ's, as we are told by Paul we can only build on that foundation. Not change it or do away with it !!!

 

[Grandpa]

The other thing we must continue to do is stop placing works of the faith as the same as self effort works or works done of our own merit !!!

The written ordinances of the Mosaic law is what we are not under, the morality of God still applies..............

Those seeking justification by the law as the Galatians did, were trying to still keep every single written ordinance and claiming perfection off of how good they could keep them.

What's the difference between seeking justification by the law, trying to keep the moral law and works of faith?

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is an example of talking about a scripture and then "adding onto it". 1 Corth 5 was talking about a specific man who was having sex with his father's wife and the context is that the Corinthians were boasting about it..instead of being sorrowful about what was going on.

They were most likely saying.."look we can do whatever we want.."..they were boasting in this deed.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, ( is this showing love for the father who had his wife taken from him? ) so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

This was a one time thing for Paul in this church and it was for a specific reason that they were boasting in the deed that was done.

The Corinthian church as a whole were doing all kinds of strange things and he didn't say to kick them out....but instead Paul told them who they were in Christ...appealed to their true identity.

There were people in that church going to the temple prostitutes for sex....there were people going to court against one another, there were people getting drunk and eating all the food at communion, there were people constantly causing divisions and back-biting each other.

These he did not say to kick out......so, there are times to get the boot ( this is done by someone in spiritual authority only in the church setting ) and times to be told who we are in Christ and let the grace of God "teach us" to deny ungodliness and to walk uprightly in this present world.

In 1 Corinthians 5 when Paul speaks on the destruction of the flesh, he is saying to let the person who refuses to give up their sinful ways fall and hopefully leaving them on their own to fall will bring them to repent so that they can be saved at the time of judgment.

I!!!

 

[KennethC]

What's the difference between seeking justification by the law, trying to keep the moral law and works of faith?

Seeking justification by the law is trying to keep the written ordinance through self effort, or in other words claiming perfection (self-righteousness) by being able to obey them.


Keeping God's moral law and doing the works of the faith are not self effort works, they are the will of God that the Holy Spirit will help guide and direct us in. They are His deeds done through us !!!

If Jesus tells you to do something and gives you the Holy Spirit to help you do it, then it is His works and not our own doing.

This is why our actions do matter because they are guided and lead by the Holy Spirit, and thus they are His will being done in our lives.

Jesus teachings and commands are part of His will for our lives.

 

[KennethC]

Here is an example of talking about a scripture and then "adding onto it". 1 Corth 5 was talking about a specific man who was having sex with his father's wife and the context is that the Corinthians were boasting about it..instead of being sorrowful about what was going on.

They were most likely saying.."look we can do whatever we want.."..they were boasting in this deed.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, ( is this showing love for the father who had his wife taken from him? ) so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

This was a one time thing for Paul in this church and it was for a specific reason that they were boasting in the deed that was done.

The Corinthian church as a whole were doing all kinds of strange things and he didn't say to kick them out....but instead Paul told them who they were in Christ...appealed to their true identity.

There were people in that church going to the temple prostitutes for sex....there were people going to court against one another, there were people getting drunk and eating all the food at communion, there were people constantly causing divisions and back-biting each other.

These he did not say to kick out......so, there are times to get the boot ( this is done by someone in spiritual authority only in the church setting ) and times to be told who we are in Christ and let the grace of God "teach us" to deny ungodliness and to walk uprightly in this present world.

I did not add anything on to it as you are the one reading more into it then what is actually said, as Paul in verses 7 and 13 is saying exactly that to cast out the sinful person who refuses to give up those ways.

This was not just a one time thing as this scripture has implications to all churches who operate in such unorderly fassions, if you allow one sinful person to continue to live their sinful lives in front of others they will lead others to think it is okay for them to do the same.

A little leaven levels the whole bunch..............................

Leaven here is speaking on sinful behavior, if we allow it to continue then it will lead others to think they can continue to be sinful to !!!

 

[Grandpa]

Keeping God's moral law and doing the works of the faith are not self effort works, they are the will of God that the Holy Spirit will help guide and direct us in. They are His deeds done through us !!!

The Holy Spirit helps guide us to perform Gods Moral Law? Gods Moral Law is deeds? How can morality be deeds?

Isn't morality belief?

What is Gods Moral Law?

I totally agree with what you have written. I just wonder if we think of Gods 'Moral' Law as the same thing.

 

[Grace777x70]

again....verse 7 and 13 are talking about that one man being removed specifically.....

not all the other people in Corinth that were going to temple prostitutes for sex..etc...were "delivered over to satan for the destruction of the flesh"....and notice the removing part was that satan would destroy the man's flesh..but he himself would still be saved..

if all the people in Corinth at the church were "delivered over to satan for the destruction of their flesh" ..it sounds like not many would have been left.


context....

I did not add anything on to it as you are the one reading more into it then what is actually said, as Paul in verses 7 and 13 is saying exactly that to cast out the sinful person who refuses to give up those ways.

This was not just a one time thing as this scripture has implications to all churches who operate in such unorderly fassions, if you allow one sinful person to continue to live their sinful lives in front of others they will lead others to think it is okay for them to do the same.

A little leaven levels the whole bunch..............................

Leaven here is speaking on sinful behavior, if we allow it to continue then it will lead others to think they can continue to be sinful to !!!

 

[posthuman]

again....verse 7 and 13 are talking about that one man being removed specifically.....

one unrepentant man -- i take it not the only person within the church there that ever sinned, but one who openly practiced it as though there was no reason not to.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Holy Spirit helps guide us to perform Gods Moral Law? Gods Moral Law is deeds? How can morality be deeds?

Isn't morality belief?

What is Gods Moral Law?

I totally agree with what you have written. I just wonder if we think of Gods 'Moral' Law as the same thing.

I don't know what Kenneth believes now, but I do believe in the past he has used the term Gods Moral Law to refer to the 10 commandments. He can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[posthuman]

Nobody again is saying works earn salvation and I would appreciate if this lie would stop being passed around !!!!

i don't think anyone is saying salvation means we shouldn't be concerned at all about whether we go on sinning or not either!


i hope we can all quit talking past each other and rejoice together instead in the Truth

 

[Grace777x70]

There was some boasting being done and them being arrogant towards the deed which certainly did put focus on this particular man. I personally think they might have been thinking.." See we can do whatever we want because we are under grace"...or perhaps they were doing things because of their "liberty in Christ?"..

What so you make of all this?

one unrepentant man -- i take it not the only person within the church there that ever sinned, but one who openly practiced it as though there was no reason not to.

 

[popeye]

I love your passion

One thing to keep in mind about Acts 20:31 is that he was speaking to the elders...

17Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. 18And when they came to him, he said to them:

Paul was extremely concerned about false teachers entering the church of Ephesus and he told the elders about false teaching repeatedly... unfortunately... one generation later we find in Revelation that Christ gave them a warning...

Rev 2:4 [SUP]4 [/SUP]But I have this against you: You have abandoned the love you had at first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember then how far you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you[SUP][b][/SUP] and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

We see how important love is...

C.

You are both right.

Note it says "works" in conjunction to "first love"

First love is heaven infused
Love is not

 

[posthuman]

There was some boasting being done and them being arrogant towards the deed which certainly did put focus on this particular man. I personally think they might have been thinking.." See we can do whatever we want because we are under grace"...or perhaps they were doing things because of their "liberty in Christ?"..

What so you make of all this?

i get the impression that they were so focused on the grace they received that they not only neglected to respond to God by seeking righteousness, they may have actually been boasting about how they could go on sinning, maybe using this man as an example of how free they were and how freely grace was given. which is of course, wrong of them.

this isn't to say that this means they were all without grace or without salvation - just mislead and not having the right understanding. because, here in the same context and on the same subject, Paul says to them ..

Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch -
- as you really are.
For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
(1 Corinthians 5:7)​

.. that they really are unleavened -- and that not because of outwardly displaying that 'unleavened-ness' (which, they weren't!) but because of Christ's sacrifice.
the gist here i think is the same thing we see in the rest of Paul's writing, and John's, and Peter's -- that our righteousness has been declared and is because of Christ; it is His righteousness that we are clothed with, so we should therefore act in a way worthy of what we have already been declared to be.
see, if their misdeeds and their bad understanding is what their righteousness hinged on, i don't think Paul would have told them that they "really are" unleavened; the reason to purge out the leaven is not in order to become unleavened, but because that leaven has no place with us, because it is not in keeping with who we are in Christ. so here i am again, trusting that i am saved regardless of my works, because of my faith, and that because of that i should strive for righteousness & put away sin. faith and repentance are hand-in-hand, but one should produce the other, and the other doesn't necessarily produce or even require the one.