-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
4
49
Guest
Isn't baptism a free will choice? Can an infant make a free will choice? In Jesus' day crowds gathered around to hear John the baptist preach of the coming Savior who would literally wash away their sins. John's act of baptism was symbolic, and so is the Catholic Church's. John acknowledged that he was not even worthy to unfasten the sandals of Jesus. It is Jesus who ultimately washes away sin from the contrite, not John the baptist, Mary or a priest.
To agree with her misconceptions of the Catholic faith is your right, but it stil doesn't make them correct.I do...................
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
― Fulton J. Sheen
Pax Christi
Fordman, every time you pray to Mary asking her to intercede for you, you are making her your god.
So yes fordman, you Catholics are making Mary equal to God. You can claim all you want how you are not making Mary your god, but your lips give you away every time you pray the Hail Mary.
That which you pray to is your god. That which you serve is your god. That which you follow is your god. Be it Gold or Mary, its still your god fordman.
Jesus clearly said ONLY through Him can you reach the Father. You cannot come to the Father through Mary. In fact you cannot even come to Jesus through Mary!
This is where the Catholics walk away from God to Worship and follow Mary as their god fordman.
You may not like it but the Truth is you are making Mary your god fordman and God has already judged you for this.
So yes fordman, you Catholics are making Mary equal to God. You can claim all you want how you are not making Mary your god, but your lips give you away every time you pray the Hail Mary.
That which you pray to is your god. That which you serve is your god. That which you follow is your god. Be it Gold or Mary, its still your god fordman.
Jesus clearly said ONLY through Him can you reach the Father. You cannot come to the Father through Mary. In fact you cannot even come to Jesus through Mary!
This is where the Catholics walk away from God to Worship and follow Mary as their god fordman.
You may not like it but the Truth is you are making Mary your god fordman and God has already judged you for this.
I believe Jesus is God!
I have received Jesus as my Lord and Savior!
I have been washed clean of ALL my sins!
I have been sanctified!
I have been justified!
And when I die I WILL Inherit the Kingdom of God!
There is NOTHING you fordman or the Catholic Church can do to keep me from spending Eternity with God!
I have received Jesus as my Lord and Savior!
I have been washed clean of ALL my sins!
I have been sanctified!
I have been justified!
And when I die I WILL Inherit the Kingdom of God!
There is NOTHING you fordman or the Catholic Church can do to keep me from spending Eternity with God!
4
49
Guest
But fordman if it is baptism that saves us than was not Christ's sacrifice on the cross in vain? Did He not take on the punishment that was alloted to us?
According to Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3, it shows that circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.
Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults. Are you saying God was wrong to instruct the Jews to circumcise 8 day old babies?
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
"Praying to" does not mean worship. We use "pray" in the older sense (as found in the dictionary) which means to ask. Protestants use "pray" to mean worship. But you are right, she is just a human as you and I, but the only human to be declared "Full of Grace" by God through the Angel Gabriel. And "blessed among all women", which makes Mary a special ordinary human.
A sound biblical basis for Veneration (does not mean "worship") of Saints can be found in the Pauline passages where the Apostle exhorts his followers to “imitate” him (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 2 Thess 3:7-9) as he, in turn, imitates Jesus Christ (1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6). Also, we are told to honor and imitate the “heroes of the faith” in Heb 6:12 and ch. 11, and to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering (Jas 5:10-11). It has been said that the painter is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows that such praise reflects back upon himself (see 2 Cor 3:18).
We give to Mary honor as the greatest hero of the faith, (hyperdulia) but it is the same kind of honor we give to other great heroes.(dulia) And we worship only God (latria).
Those are two different things. Confession of sins to the priest began with the Jews, (Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22, Num. 5:7, Neh. 9:2-3, Sir. 4:2, Baruch 1:14)so it wasn't big news to the Apostles. Getting breathed on by God beforehand was.
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.
John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.
Keep the focus on forgiveness, not on the externals that are seen in movies. It is a beautiful sacrament that gives peace of mind knowing for sure you are forgiven by God according to His design.
You said, "the Bible says to get to the Father you must go thru Jesus." That is absolutely true, but when Jesus says "as the Father sent me, so I send you." is not a contradiction, and the Apostles and their successors are not an obstacle to the Father but a means, or Jesus would not have said it.
1 Tim 2:1-2 Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man, because he is the only Person who is both. (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
A wise idea, but go to reliable sources. Tradition is not about customs and rubrics. Here is a favorite of mine:
“Tradition” Is Not a Dirty Word its easy to read and not too long.
We give the Pope "dulia", not "latria". He is honored for the chair he sits in, and he is a very humble man which drives the critics bonkers. I will answer this one in the next post due to its length.
Responses are not talking backs, they are all set prayers from scripture. In fact, the whole Mass is taken from scripture. The readings are not randomly selected, they are harmonious and more scripture is read aloud than in any Protestant service. All the main points of the Bible are covered in one year, and the whole Bible is covered in a 3 years cycle. No one is forbidden to bring their own bibles to Mass, it just isn't necessary. We have booklets that give all the readings for that month or season.
I hope you do do. But find me a verse that says all devotions, practices, and doctrines must be explicitly found in scripture. That is a man made tradition and its not in scripture.
That's 3 more topics and this post is already too long, but I encourage you to keep thinking.
The Pope holds the most important office in the world, it has outlasted every government and institution for 2000 years and comes to us in an unbroken line of succession from St. Peter. His opinions you get in the media are his opinions, not formal teaching. If you are going to criticize the Pope, look at what he teaches, not what the media says and not his off the cuff remarks. You can see for yourself how he constantly talks about God. He is more emphatic in his formal teachings, available on line for everyone to see.
Pope Francis - Latest News :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)
POPE'S OFFICE IN THE BIBLE
Shebna is described as having an "office" and a "station." An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required.
This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.
In the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.
Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God's people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.
We see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.
Rev. 1:18; Rev. 3:7 ; Rev. 9:1 ; Rev. 20:1
Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant revolt 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.
Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.
Whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority, a rabbinical term, allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. The meaning of Matt. 16:19 is almost identical to Rev. 3:7
Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.
Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.
Peter never was a Pope and there is no evidence in the Scriptures that Peter ever was a Pope epostle.
It was Catholicism that made up the teaching that Peter was a pope.
Look at Pope John Paul II and how he worshiped Mary as his God and then try to tell me with a straight face how the Catholic Church is a True Church epostle.
It was Catholicism that made up the teaching that Peter was a pope.
Look at Pope John Paul II and how he worshiped Mary as his God and then try to tell me with a straight face how the Catholic Church is a True Church epostle.
The Catholic "church" has declared all Protestants as anathema (cursed) because we believe we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.
Those council pronouncements have never been rescinded - nor can be. If they were, it would be an admission that the "church", and their Popes, were in error.
The RCC teaches that no one can go to heaven who die while under an anathema - they are "cut off" from the "church" and cannot partake of the Sacraments. And so, according to them, without the sacraments you go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Those council pronouncements have never been rescinded - nor can be. If they were, it would be an admission that the "church", and their Popes, were in error.
The RCC teaches that no one can go to heaven who die while under an anathema - they are "cut off" from the "church" and cannot partake of the Sacraments. And so, according to them, without the sacraments you go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Talk about lip service, thats all you do! The burden of proof is upon you to prove this nonsence. Something you never do. Show some official Catholic documentation to back up your balderdash. Say from the Vatican or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I know you won't because you can't, but you continue with breaking one of the Ten Comandments. i.e. Ex.20:16; "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." In doing so KenAllen, it's not helping your journey any.
Let ask you the same thing I asked Vdp, (which he has of yet answered) Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Now if it's your belief we Catholics put The Blessed Virgin Mary as equal to God, din't you think we would worship/praise her as god during Mass?
I don't remember us doing so at Mass this morning. What I do remember however, all the church singing the Gloria. As follows:
"Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen."
Don't see anywhere in the Glory to God where the Blessed Virgin Mary's name is mentioned once. Again, you best read and take to heart Ex.20:16 my friend.
Pax Christi
Let me start of with quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Chapter One. The Sacraments Of Christian Initiation.
Article 1
VI. The Necessity of Baptisim:1257: The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.(60) He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. (61)Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.(62) The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. (1129, 161, 846)
60. Cf. Jn 3:5.
61.Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.
62.Cf. Mk 16:16
As well as St. Thomas Aquinas----- "the Passion of Christ made sufficient and more than sufficient satisfaction for the sins of the whole human race."
As well as what St. Paul writes in Rom.6:3-4: "Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life."
Pax Christi
Hogwash. Many people in the Bible were saved without baptism.
And are you going to keep ignoring what I've chased you all over these boards with?