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4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage.
The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)
The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.
As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)
Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
Nostra aetate
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage.
The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)
The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.
As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)
Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
Nostra aetate
Wow.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Put the verse into context and then make application.
Israel is not saved by virtue of election.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Put the verse into context and then make application.
Israel is not saved by virtue of election.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
We did not dance around it at all as we use the whole passage and not just one verse pulled out of context, as look at the below given by notuptome. We don't agree sometimes but here we are on the same page.
Verse 11:25 says "Blinded in part", which means and is speaking of the unbelieving Jews..........
The Jews that do believe such as the Apostles are not blinded, only those who are there will come a time when Jesus returns that blindness will be removed and they will realize Jesus was their Messiah.
They do not get salvation without believing in the Son !!
Wow you are really reaching my friend. If for example we are talking about a developing news story we are talking about new information changing the original story line. For example, an initial news report states that two gunman are holding fifteen people hostage.at the local Dairy Queen. Later, as the story develops, it was realized that there was a Halloween party at the Dairy Queen with two patrons dressed up as Bonnie and Clyde. The story line is now completely different. It doesn'the matter if we're talking about a news story changing or a church doctrine changing. In both cases the story line changes. There's just no getting around this simple logic.
That has nothing to do with the flow of the discussion. I said:
You replied with a comment by a Cardinal that had the word "change" in it, as if that negated what I said, as if the Cardinal meant the Church can change doctrines/dogmas. He was talking about the Synod on the Family. He's a radical liberal and nobody likes him anyway. It turns out his opinions are out of step, if that's what he meant in the first place. There was no "change". I am not talking about a developing news story that's 4 months old predating the final draft of the synod, you used it to counter my statement. It still stands.
It is impossible for the Church to change dogmas or doctrines.
You replied with a comment by a Cardinal that had the word "change" in it, as if that negated what I said, as if the Cardinal meant the Church can change doctrines/dogmas. He was talking about the Synod on the Family. He's a radical liberal and nobody likes him anyway. It turns out his opinions are out of step, if that's what he meant in the first place. There was no "change". I am not talking about a developing news story that's 4 months old predating the final draft of the synod, you used it to counter my statement. It still stands.
It is impossible for the Church to change dogmas or doctrines.
Context doesn't change the fact that they, the Jews, are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,
and you are saying God should take back his gifts and calling.
I'm done changing diapers on this matter. Read post 568 and grow up, and ask yourself why your church/group/bless-me-club has no formal relations with the Jews. With your attitude, why would they want to?
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,
and you are saying God should take back his gifts and calling.
I'm done changing diapers on this matter. Read post 568 and grow up, and ask yourself why your church/group/bless-me-club has no formal relations with the Jews. With your attitude, why would they want to?
** SATANISTS DESECRATE VIRGIN MARY STATUE
AT CATHOLIC CATHEDRAL ON CHRISTMAS EVE **
AT CATHOLIC CATHEDRAL ON CHRISTMAS EVE **
A satanic group desecrated a statue of the Virgin Mary on Christmas Eve in front of Saint Joseph Old Cathedral in Oklahoma City.
The Satanists dressed in priest cossacks and smeared blood on the Virgin Mary on Christmas Eve outside the church. They draped themselves in Satanic symbols and recited a Satanic prayer.
Faithful Catholics from several states gathered in front of City Hall in Oklahoma City on December 23 for a rosary rally of reparation organized by the American TFP and its America Needs Fatima campaign. Demonstrators urged Mayor Mick Cornett to revoke the permit his office issued to a satanic group which desecrated a statue of the Virgin Mary on Christmas Eve in front of Saint Joseph Old Cathedral.
Showing their great love for God and His Blessed Mother, demonstrators recited the holy rosary and sang hymns such as Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above, Immaculate Mary and God Bless America. Dozens of banners and signs expressed the sentiments of rally participants. “Revoke the permit — Satan has no rights,” read one sign. Others stated: “Keep it One Nation Under God,” and “Sacrilege is not free speech” and “I will defend the pure & holy name of Mary with my life.”
Kansas State Senator Steve Fitzgerald, who drove from Kansas to Oklahoma City with his wife for the rally, spoke eloquently about the urgent need to stand firm and defend Christian civilization — like a new Battle of Lepanto — against the attacks of darkness. Francis Slobodnik, director of America Needs Fatima’s national rosary rally office, addressed the assembly, saying, “We can’t give the Holy Family any better gift at Christmas than to defend the honor of Our Lady. That is the greatest gift.”
TFP Student Action and America Needs Fatima volunteers held a large banner bearing a quote from Proverbs 31:28: “Her children rose up, and called her blessed.” And at the center of the reparation rally was a beautiful statue of Our Lady of Fatima, flanked by two TFP members in ceremonial habit.
see horrific video:
Do Satanists ever publicly attack Protestants? Do Satanists ever have a black Protestant service? Why is it only a communion host stolen from a Catholic Mass that they use, in their attempt to desecrate it, and not from a Protestant service?
How can the Catholic Church claim it is teaching the Truth from God when they teach Mary is equal to God?
Jesus was born without sin.
The catholic Church teaches Mary was born without sin.
Jesus is our Mediator between God and men.
The Catholic Church teaches Mary is our Mediator between God and men.
Jesus arose into Heaven.
The catholic Church teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
As it stands epostle the Catholic Church is a man made church that deceives people like you into rejecting the Truth from God.
Only Jesus is the way to Heaven epostle. Not Jesus and Mary. Only God has the Truth epostle, not God and the Catholic Church.
Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle? You know its not to late in your life to accept right now Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
You really need to pray about this epostle. Because there will come a time when God will say you have had enough time to accept Him and He will not then allow you to ever accept Him.
Jesus was born without sin.
The catholic Church teaches Mary was born without sin.
Jesus is our Mediator between God and men.
The Catholic Church teaches Mary is our Mediator between God and men.
Jesus arose into Heaven.
The catholic Church teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
As it stands epostle the Catholic Church is a man made church that deceives people like you into rejecting the Truth from God.
Only Jesus is the way to Heaven epostle. Not Jesus and Mary. Only God has the Truth epostle, not God and the Catholic Church.
Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior epostle? You know its not to late in your life to accept right now Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
You really need to pray about this epostle. Because there will come a time when God will say you have had enough time to accept Him and He will not then allow you to ever accept Him.
In a world where Christians are routinely being murdered and raped in the name of God, even non-believers must be curious about the rise of Satanism. Here at home we are also witnessing a surge in Satanic attacks.
Until two years ago, Satanists were never bothered by the presence of a menorah on public property in Tallahassee. But when Christians decided to erect a nativity scene at the Florida state Capitol, they went wild: they succeeded in getting a Satanic display on state grounds. Though neither Christians nor Satanists are displaying their symbols in the Capitol rotunda this year, Satanists have put Christians on warning: if you dare to erect a crèche, we will counter with our own display.
This weekend, the Satanic Temple of Detroit will perform a “Satanic ceremony” in Lansing, on the grounds of Michigan’s Capitol. Its demonic statement is being made to counter a nativity scene.On Christmas Eve, a Satanist and registered sex offender, Adam Daniels, pledges to pour blood over a Virgin Mary statue in front of a Catholic church in Oklahoma City. He admits that his display, “Virgin Birth is a Lie,” is aimed at the Catholic Church.
There is nary a word of condemnation about these events. If anything, media reports have been kind. Take CNN: on December 13 it aired a very sympathetic show on Satanism. It even allowed an un-named mother—she is a Satanist—to blame Christianity for her gay son’s suicide, providing no evidence whatsoever. Worse, she was enticed by reporter Lisa Ling to do so. “Do you blame the church?” “Oh, yes, absolutely,” the Satanist said.On Thanksgiving Day, Jex Blackmore, the national spokesman for The Satanic Temple, poisoned her child, in utero, and then posted a blog bragging about her abortion.
This is the face of Satanism that the media refuses to profile.
SATANISTS SURGE AT CHRISTMASTIME - Catholic League
Until two years ago, Satanists were never bothered by the presence of a menorah on public property in Tallahassee. But when Christians decided to erect a nativity scene at the Florida state Capitol, they went wild: they succeeded in getting a Satanic display on state grounds. Though neither Christians nor Satanists are displaying their symbols in the Capitol rotunda this year, Satanists have put Christians on warning: if you dare to erect a crèche, we will counter with our own display.
This weekend, the Satanic Temple of Detroit will perform a “Satanic ceremony” in Lansing, on the grounds of Michigan’s Capitol. Its demonic statement is being made to counter a nativity scene.On Christmas Eve, a Satanist and registered sex offender, Adam Daniels, pledges to pour blood over a Virgin Mary statue in front of a Catholic church in Oklahoma City. He admits that his display, “Virgin Birth is a Lie,” is aimed at the Catholic Church.
There is nary a word of condemnation about these events. If anything, media reports have been kind. Take CNN: on December 13 it aired a very sympathetic show on Satanism. It even allowed an un-named mother—she is a Satanist—to blame Christianity for her gay son’s suicide, providing no evidence whatsoever. Worse, she was enticed by reporter Lisa Ling to do so. “Do you blame the church?” “Oh, yes, absolutely,” the Satanist said.On Thanksgiving Day, Jex Blackmore, the national spokesman for The Satanic Temple, poisoned her child, in utero, and then posted a blog bragging about her abortion.
This is the face of Satanism that the media refuses to profile.
SATANISTS SURGE AT CHRISTMASTIME - Catholic League
Satanism and the Eucharist
Nicolas had been a part of the prayer group all year long, but this was the first time that he had talked about his life before his conversion. He told us about how he became involved in Satanism while in his late teens. It enslaved him, bringing despair and utter loneliness to his life, to the point where he was tormented with thoughts of suicide. He felt trapped and helpless in its grasp. It was only through the constant prayers of his mother that he was finally freed from this slavery a couple of years ago, and he began to give his life back to Christ.
I had never met anyone like Nicolas, openly admitting a past involvement in Satanism. After the initial shock, I bombarded him with three questions, one after another. First, how did they ‘worship’ Satan? I had always heard that it was not anything like worshipping an image of Satan or singing hymns, but by having a so-called “Black Mass.” In other words, their entire service is a mockery of the Catholic Mass. Was this true, I asked him? Not a Protestant preaching service, not a Buddhist temple ritual, but an explicit mockery of our Mass? “Yes,” Nicolas told us, “that is true.”
I had also heard, I continued, that Satanists steal consecrated communion bread from their local Catholic churches which they desecrate at these black services. For example, I have heard of Catholic parishes where this is such a problem that the pastor is forced to post special attendants during Holy Communion who watch to make sure that no one receives the Eucharist and walks away without consuming the host.
The Satanists take these consecrated hosts to their services—these wafers of “bread” that Catholics believe have been miraculously transformed by the Holy Spirit into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ—and desecrate them with spit, bodily waste, and other such unimaginable blasphemies. Before your conversion, I asked Nicolas, did you and your fellow Satanists steal consecrated hosts for this purpose? “Yes,” Nicolas answered, “we did.”
The poor guy probably felt like he was being interrogated by the CIA by this point, but knowing that I might never have this opportunity again, I asked Nicolas one final question. I told him that I had also heard that those who were very deep in Satanism could actually tell whether a communion host had been consecrated or not. For example, they will not steal communion bread from Protestant communion meals, nor will they steal unblessed communion bread for desecration at these “Black Masses.” It would not work because some of the Satanists would immediately recognize that it was just ordinary bread. They would be able to tell that Jesus Christ was not sacramentally present there.
I asked Nicolas whether this also was true. He again replied that it is, and he told us that he could do this himself before his conversion from Satanism. A chill went down my spine. If someone were to put ten identical communion hosts in front of him, nine unconsecrated and one consecrated, he would have been able to point directly and immediately to the host that had been consecrated. I asked him in amazement, “But how were you able to know?!?” He looked at me and the words he spoke are forever burned in my memory: “Because of the hate,” he said. “Because of the burning hate I would feel toward that host, apart from all the others.”
His words hit me like a baseball bat. Some of the saints also had this mystical knowledge of the Lord’s Eucharistic presence, but this knowledge flowed from their deep union with Christ. Nicolas, on the other hand, knew Christ’s presence because his worship of Satan had worked the opposite mystical connection to the Eucharist—he knew Jesus was there not because of his love for Jesus, but because of his deep hate. It makes my skin crawl just to think about such hatred.
This is how Satan operates. He loves to mock whatever is holy and sacred, to imitate the truth and twist it in a perverse way. The Mass is the most sacred prayer on earth, the most awesome way for us Christians to offer worship to our Lord, so Satan has his followers worship him through a mockery of that prayer. Instead of lifting the Eucharist high with adoration and loving reverence, the Eucharist is thrown to the ground with loathing and derision. Rather than knowing Christ’s true presence in the sacrament through their love, they perversely recognize Christ’s presence through their hatred.
read the whole story here http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/
You know, you keep repeating this nonsence hoping if you keep repeating this lie that maybe some day be true. Well, hate to tell ya this vdp, it's never going to happen, and there is no way you can ever wish it to be true! If you are so positive this is true, you have the burden to prove it, which you (or anyone else for that matter) have yet to do.
Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Don't you think as you say, put The Blessed Virgin Mary as equal to God, we would praise her as god during Mass? Well, we never have and never will.
If you've never been to a Catholic Mass, let me educate you. At the end of the Introductory Rites, and before the Liturgy Of The Word, we sing or recite the Gloria. (The Latin word, Gloria, means "glory" or "glory be given to…" The Gloria is an ancient Greek Christian hymn. It has been used in prayer and worship other than the Mass (i.e. Morning Prayer) in both the Roman and Byzantine traditions)
The Gloria is sung or recited by all as follows:
"Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen."
Now if for some reason you call foul, claiming the Gloria is un-biblical, let me nip that in the bud right away. More education for ya:
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will! The opening verse is the song of the angels at the birth of Jesus. (Luke 2:14)
The remaining verses
were added later, and portions of them can be traced back to the 3rd and 4rth centuries. Most of the lyrics of this ancient hymn, proclaiming the names and titles of God and Jesus, the incarnate Word of God, are drawn directly from the Scriptures:
Lord God (Exodus 20:7; Amos 5:1-3)
Heavenly King (Psalm 24)
Almighty God (Genesis 17:1)
Father (Matthew 6:6-13)
Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:28)
Begotten Son (Hebrews 1:5)
Lord God (John 20:28)
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29)
Son of the Father (John 3:16)
Only Son (coming from the Father) (John 1:14, 18)
Seated at the Right Hand of the Father (Mark 14:60-62)
Holy One (John 6:69)
Lord (Acts 2:36)
(Son of the) Most High (Luke 1:32; Luke 8:28)
So you see vdp, if we were to put The Blessed Virgin Mary equal to God as you so wrongfully perceive, don't you think we would inclued her in the Gloria? Well, a blind man can see that this is not the case. Never has....Never will! So, my friend, if you value your salvation, you'd better stop with the Bearing of false witness against your fellow man, and ask God for forgivness.
Pax Christi
Have you ever been to a Catholic Mass? Don't you think as you say, put The Blessed Virgin Mary as equal to God, we would praise her as god during Mass? Well, we never have and never will.
If you've never been to a Catholic Mass, let me educate you. At the end of the Introductory Rites, and before the Liturgy Of The Word, we sing or recite the Gloria. (The Latin word, Gloria, means "glory" or "glory be given to…" The Gloria is an ancient Greek Christian hymn. It has been used in prayer and worship other than the Mass (i.e. Morning Prayer) in both the Roman and Byzantine traditions)
The Gloria is sung or recited by all as follows:
"Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen."
Now if for some reason you call foul, claiming the Gloria is un-biblical, let me nip that in the bud right away. More education for ya:
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to people of good will! The opening verse is the song of the angels at the birth of Jesus. (Luke 2:14)
The remaining verses
were added later, and portions of them can be traced back to the 3rd and 4rth centuries. Most of the lyrics of this ancient hymn, proclaiming the names and titles of God and Jesus, the incarnate Word of God, are drawn directly from the Scriptures:
Lord God (Exodus 20:7; Amos 5:1-3)
Heavenly King (Psalm 24)
Almighty God (Genesis 17:1)
Father (Matthew 6:6-13)
Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:28)
Begotten Son (Hebrews 1:5)
Lord God (John 20:28)
Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29)
Son of the Father (John 3:16)
Only Son (coming from the Father) (John 1:14, 18)
Seated at the Right Hand of the Father (Mark 14:60-62)
Holy One (John 6:69)
Lord (Acts 2:36)
(Son of the) Most High (Luke 1:32; Luke 8:28)
So you see vdp, if we were to put The Blessed Virgin Mary equal to God as you so wrongfully perceive, don't you think we would inclued her in the Gloria? Well, a blind man can see that this is not the case. Never has....Never will! So, my friend, if you value your salvation, you'd better stop with the Bearing of false witness against your fellow man, and ask God for forgivness.
Pax Christi
So Vdp, let me ask you somethin. Are these your personal interpretation of these verses? If so, do you consider these interpretations to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and to be without error?
With that being said, I'd like to ask notuptome, HQ, KennethC, MikeHenderson, and any other non-Catholics, if you agree one hundered percent with Vdp's personal interpretation of these passages, and consider them without error? If not, where is he in error, and why?
Pax Christi
R
I don't believe in baptizing babies....I don't think theres anything wrong with dedicating your baby in front of the church, but I don't believe baptizing will "save" the baby. I believe in the age of accountability, like with what the Bible says, and I believe its depending on the individual.
I don't believe in praying to Mary, I don't know where in the Bible it says to do that, for she was just a human as you and I.
I don't believe in going to priest to ask for forgiveness, the Bible says to get to the Father you must go thru Jesus.
I think Catholics do ALOT of traditions, but I think the individual needs to study the traditions and see why they do them.
I don't understand or see the purpose of the POPE. I see people put him on a pedastool look God and if he was truly someone who worshipped God he would always give the credit to God, then to be treated like a god.
I have gone to Catholic churches and I felt like I was in a cult with all the prayers and the talking backs. As someone coming out going in, I didn't understand the purpose and reasoning. I also have noticed that no one has their own bible following along with the Priest. How do you know hes teaching the word? He can say a lot.....Bible also talks about False prophets and I believe they can be everywhere in every religion.
I would def check traditions and "rules" and see where they came up with them and why their there if not in scripture.
I also don't believe in the waiting room of when someone dies. I don't believe Mary goes and tells Jesus other peoples prayers. I don't like the thought of drinking after people in Mass and half if not more than the people just take the bread alone, so whats the point?
Im sure I have more.... that's all I can think of right now.
I don't believe in praying to Mary, I don't know where in the Bible it says to do that, for she was just a human as you and I.
I don't believe in going to priest to ask for forgiveness, the Bible says to get to the Father you must go thru Jesus.
I think Catholics do ALOT of traditions, but I think the individual needs to study the traditions and see why they do them.
I don't understand or see the purpose of the POPE. I see people put him on a pedastool look God and if he was truly someone who worshipped God he would always give the credit to God, then to be treated like a god.
I have gone to Catholic churches and I felt like I was in a cult with all the prayers and the talking backs. As someone coming out going in, I didn't understand the purpose and reasoning. I also have noticed that no one has their own bible following along with the Priest. How do you know hes teaching the word? He can say a lot.....Bible also talks about False prophets and I believe they can be everywhere in every religion.
I would def check traditions and "rules" and see where they came up with them and why their there if not in scripture.
I also don't believe in the waiting room of when someone dies. I don't believe Mary goes and tells Jesus other peoples prayers. I don't like the thought of drinking after people in Mass and half if not more than the people just take the bread alone, so whats the point?
Im sure I have more.... that's all I can think of right now.
Then could you show where it say's in the Bible where baptism is to be restricted to adults only? And while you are looking, could you also show in Scripture where we read of Christians denying infants Baptism until the age of reason. I would also like to see where Holy Scriptures speak of "infant dedications" as practiced in many modern Christian churches. If you cannot, would you then agree that Infant dedications are a tradition of man from the last few hundred years? (Lowercase t.)
Have you ever asked a family member, friend, or even your Pastor to pray for you? If so, I'm pretty sure they didn't tell you "don't ask me to pray for you...go directly to Jesus." No...I'm sure those folks I mentioned had compassion and "interceded" for you. When they prayed for you, don't you think they wanted to assist you in your relationship with Jesus? This RachelPO3 does not in any way diminishes Jesus' role. Contarary to some peoples beliefs, heaven is not a "dead" place. We Catholics believe peiple in heaven are alive. (Matt. 19:29, 25:46, 10:17-22, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25-30, Lk 18:18-30, Jn 3:15-16). Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us.
And yes, The Blessed Virgin Mary was a human like you and I. However, she is also the birth mother of the humanity of Jesus in who "the fullness of the deity (God) was pleased to dwell bodily," [Col. 1:19, 2:9] She was also "favoured by God" [Lk. 1:30] when she was personally chosen by the Lord to become the mother of Jesus, God incarnated, Catholics believe we have a greater chance of obtaining God's grace for our daily physical and spiritual needs by asking Mary to intercede on their behalf.
Have you been baptized? If so, did you have a man or woman pastor baptize you? Did you not object to having a 'mediator' baptizing you? Why didn't you just baptize yourself The primary reason why the Catholic Church asks her members to confess their sins to a priest is simply because the Church has always believed that sin, however private, is a community affair. Every sin, however small, wounds the Body of Christ, the members of the Church. . . . When any of its members sin, they all suffer. Moreover, because my sins wound the community and diminish its effectiveness, reconciliation must include the community and not just God. In the confessional, the priest is the representative of God and of the community. In the confessional, the priest represents the whole Christ, the Head (Jesus) and the members (the Church).
Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a "private" sin—not in the sense of a sin that affects nobody but myself. There are secret sins, but there are none which are matters affecting "only myself and God." Likewise, our penitence benefits the whole Church, so we celebrate reconciliation communally.
Protestants have as their sole rule of faith the written Word of God, which we find in Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about "tradition":2 Thes 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to "stand firm and hold to". Sacred Scripture and
1 Cor 11:2, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
2 Tim 2:2: "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.
1 Thes 2:13, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers." So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.
In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. (Catholicscomehome.com)
I will address the rest of your post tomorrow for it is getting late and I attend the early Mass.
Pax Christi
Have you ever asked a family member, friend, or even your Pastor to pray for you? If so, I'm pretty sure they didn't tell you "don't ask me to pray for you...go directly to Jesus." No...I'm sure those folks I mentioned had compassion and "interceded" for you. When they prayed for you, don't you think they wanted to assist you in your relationship with Jesus? This RachelPO3 does not in any way diminishes Jesus' role. Contarary to some peoples beliefs, heaven is not a "dead" place. We Catholics believe peiple in heaven are alive. (Matt. 19:29, 25:46, 10:17-22, Mk 10:30, Lk 10:25-30, Lk 18:18-30, Jn 3:15-16). Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us.
And yes, The Blessed Virgin Mary was a human like you and I. However, she is also the birth mother of the humanity of Jesus in who "the fullness of the deity (God) was pleased to dwell bodily," [Col. 1:19, 2:9] She was also "favoured by God" [Lk. 1:30] when she was personally chosen by the Lord to become the mother of Jesus, God incarnated, Catholics believe we have a greater chance of obtaining God's grace for our daily physical and spiritual needs by asking Mary to intercede on their behalf.
Have you been baptized? If so, did you have a man or woman pastor baptize you? Did you not object to having a 'mediator' baptizing you? Why didn't you just baptize yourself The primary reason why the Catholic Church asks her members to confess their sins to a priest is simply because the Church has always believed that sin, however private, is a community affair. Every sin, however small, wounds the Body of Christ, the members of the Church. . . . When any of its members sin, they all suffer. Moreover, because my sins wound the community and diminish its effectiveness, reconciliation must include the community and not just God. In the confessional, the priest is the representative of God and of the community. In the confessional, the priest represents the whole Christ, the Head (Jesus) and the members (the Church).
Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a "private" sin—not in the sense of a sin that affects nobody but myself. There are secret sins, but there are none which are matters affecting "only myself and God." Likewise, our penitence benefits the whole Church, so we celebrate reconciliation communally.
Protestants have as their sole rule of faith the written Word of God, which we find in Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about "tradition":2 Thes 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to "stand firm and hold to". Sacred Scripture and
1 Cor 11:2, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
2 Tim 2:2: "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.
1 Thes 2:13, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers." So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.
In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. (Catholicscomehome.com)
I will address the rest of your post tomorrow for it is getting late and I attend the early Mass.
Pax Christi