How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel
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E
You can not claim this, and it is God who does all the work. then claim it all can be lost. Unless you are really trusting in self.
You claim God fails. God will not.
1. He HAS PERFECTED FOREVER all who are in the process of being sanctified.
2. He did start a good work, and he will not stop until the day of Christ.
These facts are not in what you claim. Your works are worthless, Because you claim all can be lost, It is not God who changes you, it is you, and you teach your eternity is based on how well you do this, or how well you are at not falling away.
L
After you posted this Jim, there are posts to show you there ARE people who say if you don't work you lose your salvation. (and it was posted before that too) It's not a matter of arguing for the sake of arguing. There is a definite religious spirit that dis allows grace for salvation. There are also those who still can't get away from the works of the law to be approved of God, let alone to experience the love of God through Christ that is full and free. And so the posts go on either here or some place else.
And when a believer comes to see that there is more to their salvation than when they first believed it is a "beautiful" thing.
There is a truth, if you agree with a poster, ofcourse their position is clear, you see no problem with it.
The difference between us is on our models of the world. All language is based on this, partly emotional, partly conceptual, often summarised by teachers etc.
A large amount of words does not necessarily make anything clear at all. I have given up trying to put formula or things in boxes, because each box is actually different for each person, depending on how they define it.
Most models rely on crucial assumptions. Without those assumptions everything collapses. Now the crucial assumption in hyper-grace is a new pure, holy, righteous spirit / heart given on request. This is an invention, an idea to justify all the behaviour and language that follows, contradicting both Jesus's words and intention.
To a degree it does not matter, because for many walking in righteousness is impossible, a dream too far off, they are lost forever. God has always been interested in those who have seen the possibility in life of walking truly yet failing to achieve it. So I speak to those who see the dream Jesus offers, and want to answer His question, Do you love me?
If you listen to His words, in your heart, at night, in the day, make them your guide, your truth, your reality, then you will know the Kingdom of the Most High.
It is not anymore complex than this, and it never has been. It is only our sin and miss-understanding that gets in the way. This is why people from the most primitive groups in the world walk in the Spirit while many here who are blessed with riches without measure are lost and have no clue as to the reality within.
The difference between us is on our models of the world. All language is based on this, partly emotional, partly conceptual, often summarised by teachers etc.
A large amount of words does not necessarily make anything clear at all. I have given up trying to put formula or things in boxes, because each box is actually different for each person, depending on how they define it.
Most models rely on crucial assumptions. Without those assumptions everything collapses. Now the crucial assumption in hyper-grace is a new pure, holy, righteous spirit / heart given on request. This is an invention, an idea to justify all the behaviour and language that follows, contradicting both Jesus's words and intention.
To a degree it does not matter, because for many walking in righteousness is impossible, a dream too far off, they are lost forever. God has always been interested in those who have seen the possibility in life of walking truly yet failing to achieve it. So I speak to those who see the dream Jesus offers, and want to answer His question, Do you love me?
If you listen to His words, in your heart, at night, in the day, make them your guide, your truth, your reality, then you will know the Kingdom of the Most High.
It is not anymore complex than this, and it never has been. It is only our sin and miss-understanding that gets in the way. This is why people from the most primitive groups in the world walk in the Spirit while many here who are blessed with riches without measure are lost and have no clue as to the reality within.
The believers new heart in Christ created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
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There comes a point EG when things end. I cannot share more than I know, the depths of my spiritual experience.
If you crucify it, like Herod did, reject this reality of life, there is nothing left for you.
I do not expect you to accept what I write because it is you am I writing about. After 40 years of thinking and walking through life with the Lord, saying I cannot do something which I do, is not exactly going to change my mind.
You are a testimony to someone who wants to justify their sin, and claim those who talk about righteousness are pure hypocritical legalists. You would put Jesus into that camp also, as the words you fail to understand and which condemn your heart and conscience are His. I suggest you stop trying and go off and become a real sinner and you might then learn what you are actually talking about.
But you have never ever let yourself go. You are so up tight with a mission to change the world, you have never put this down and just listen to what you actually want to do. Why are you fighting someone elses fight?
If you crucify it, like Herod did, reject this reality of life, there is nothing left for you.
I do not expect you to accept what I write because it is you am I writing about. After 40 years of thinking and walking through life with the Lord, saying I cannot do something which I do, is not exactly going to change my mind.
You are a testimony to someone who wants to justify their sin, and claim those who talk about righteousness are pure hypocritical legalists. You would put Jesus into that camp also, as the words you fail to understand and which condemn your heart and conscience are His. I suggest you stop trying and go off and become a real sinner and you might then learn what you are actually talking about.
But you have never ever let yourself go. You are so up tight with a mission to change the world, you have never put this down and just listen to what you actually want to do. Why are you fighting someone elses fight?
After you posted this Jim, there are posts to show you there ARE people who say if you don't work you lose your salvation. (and it was posted before that too) It's not a matter of arguing for the sake of arguing. There is a definite religious spirit that dis allows grace for salvation. There are also those who still can't get away from the works of the law to be approved of God, let alone to experience the love of God through Christ that is full and free. And so the posts go on either here or some place else.
And when a believer comes to see that there is more to their salvation than when they first believed it is a "beautiful" thing.
And when a believer comes to see that there is more to their salvation than when they first believed it is a "beautiful" thing.
What I love about brainwashed people, is they just repeat the same ideas, as if they have answered the point.
Until people actually talk about who they are and how things relate to them or they respond from the heart it is just fill.
Grace7x77 does not talk about who he is, or what this is that he is talking about, just lots of cut and pasting.
The problem in life is how do you get the power of Jesus working in human flesh.
The proof of failure is sin. The proof of success is righteousness.
One version says turn on the light, look at everything, confess, walk in openess, honesty with one another praising God and doing good works to His glory
Other versions just fail. Which version are you walking in?
Until people actually talk about who they are and how things relate to them or they respond from the heart it is just fill.
Grace7x77 does not talk about who he is, or what this is that he is talking about, just lots of cut and pasting.
The problem in life is how do you get the power of Jesus working in human flesh.
The proof of failure is sin. The proof of success is righteousness.
One version says turn on the light, look at everything, confess, walk in openess, honesty with one another praising God and doing good works to His glory
Other versions just fail. Which version are you walking in?
E
The spirit can not produce ANYTHING apart from faith. If that was true, all Christians would be sinless. because they all have the spirit.
Abraham could have had the spirit. Believed Jesus COULD raise his son from the dead. But if he did not have faith god would do it. He never would have produced the works.
Rahab believed The God of Isreal was all powerful But even with the spirit in her, If she did not have faith. she never would have done what she did.
Faith produced the work. the spirit only empowered it.
apart from faith, there is no works. Thats why faith is dead.
Abraham could have had the spirit. Believed Jesus COULD raise his son from the dead. But if he did not have faith god would do it. He never would have produced the works.
Rahab believed The God of Isreal was all powerful But even with the spirit in her, If she did not have faith. she never would have done what she did.
Faith produced the work. the spirit only empowered it.
apart from faith, there is no works. Thats why faith is dead.
Those "cut and paste" are scriptures..which apparently we are supposed to get truth from .......
I have posted many things about how "I feel"....but I will give it to you again.
This is how the grace of Christ has affected me. I had the scripture come up to me where the Pharisees were arguing about whether a man was born blind or not after Jesus healed him. Of course the Pharisees were trying to discredit the message of Jesus. The man said.." All I know is that I was born blind but now I see."
This is what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:
I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.
This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!
This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.
To live a holier life in Him...to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.
If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....hyper-grace me more please my Lord and God!
I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever, free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out to me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self=performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )
I was blind but now I see. I see Jesus and His finished work for me!
It will always be in eternity "Worthy is the Lamb"..it will never be.."Worthy is the Lamb......and me..because I did my part"
It has always been about Jesus and Him alone and it will always remain that for all eternity.
I have posted many things about how "I feel"....but I will give it to you again.
This is how the grace of Christ has affected me. I had the scripture come up to me where the Pharisees were arguing about whether a man was born blind or not after Jesus healed him. Of course the Pharisees were trying to discredit the message of Jesus. The man said.." All I know is that I was born blind but now I see."
This is what the gospel of the grace of Christ has done in my life:
I realize that these beliefs in the grace of God....especially the acceptance grace and the total forgiveness that Jesus bought and paid for with His blood....that these can be offensive to our religious beliefs and what we have been taught in church.
This gospel of the wondrous grace of Christ has had a beautiful affect on me. I am more in love with Jesus and the Father more then ever....in love with studying His word....praying in the spirit constantly with a heart full of joy!
This gospel has given me a compassion for other people and to reach out in love to them. To give more than I ever have with a heart full of love.
To live a holier life in Him...to be a witness of the life and love of our Lord in me.
If these are the horrible fruit of the grace of Christ in me....I want more!.....hyper-grace me more please my Lord and God!
I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever, free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out to me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self=performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )
I was blind but now I see. I see Jesus and His finished work for me!
It will always be in eternity "Worthy is the Lamb"..it will never be.."Worthy is the Lamb......and me..because I did my part"
It has always been about Jesus and Him alone and it will always remain that for all eternity.
E
If you base your eternity on experience, and not truth. Your in deep trouble. and need to walk away, Because you risk leading people astray.
Saul, by experience, thought killing the people of Christ was Gods desire and he proudly went about this bsiness of the god of Isreal.
He learned after Jesus confronted hi, Experience means nothing, only truth trumps.
I posted two passages. which says God will complete the work he started. And also says he has perfected already those who are growing in Christ.
These contradict what you believe, thus your experience is useless.. Truth trumps experience.
I am not fighting someone else fight. If you want to fight, Fight.
I stop fighting years ago, because I realised how frutless it was. And started allowing God to fight for me, And I found such rest,
It is Gods fight That is what I have been trying to tell you. Let go of yourself. and give it all to God. then you will find rest. Until then, you only have experience, which obviously has led you astray.
Saul, by experience, thought killing the people of Christ was Gods desire and he proudly went about this bsiness of the god of Isreal.
He learned after Jesus confronted hi, Experience means nothing, only truth trumps.
I posted two passages. which says God will complete the work he started. And also says he has perfected already those who are growing in Christ.
These contradict what you believe, thus your experience is useless.. Truth trumps experience.
I am not fighting someone else fight. If you want to fight, Fight.
I stop fighting years ago, because I realised how frutless it was. And started allowing God to fight for me, And I found such rest,
It is Gods fight That is what I have been trying to tell you. Let go of yourself. and give it all to God. then you will find rest. Until then, you only have experience, which obviously has led you astray.
E
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
We do not sanctify our self God sanctifies us, We just learn to trust him.
God said to rest from our work. why do you want to start over again and work.
Your chart is flawed in a few areas.
Justification is saved or perfected forever. that part never changes. God said by one sacrifice ha has perfect forever. That means forever..
Sanctification has two parts. Positional sanctification (which is the same as being perfected in Christ) vs conditional sanctification (which is our moment by moment state of mind in Christ)..
Glorification is the time when our positional sanctification matches completely with our conditional sanctification.
It is called the means of Growth,
It is based on justification (if we do noot have security in Christ, our conditional sanctification will never grow. it will be stagnant, because we are trusting in self not God) and relys on the hope of glorification.
Amen...the hearing of Jesus produces faith..
The gospel does not demand faith..it supplies it ......when you hear about Jesus...this faith then has a corresponding action..either by confessing the truth ..or by an outward action as directed by the Spirit of God within us.
Here is the gospel in a nutshell..the woman with the issue of blood....when she heard of Jesus..she had an action to the faith that hearing about Jesus brought to her.
Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
The gospel does not demand faith..it supplies it ......when you hear about Jesus...this faith then has a corresponding action..either by confessing the truth ..or by an outward action as directed by the Spirit of God within us.
Here is the gospel in a nutshell..the woman with the issue of blood....when she heard of Jesus..she had an action to the faith that hearing about Jesus brought to her.
Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Look at the following list
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
• lack of remorse or guilt
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
• callousness and lack of empathy
• poor behavioral controls
• sexual promiscuity
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulativeness
Imagine you gave a person like this the gospel and they could preach it.
In all my tests on personality traits I would fall into the catagory of being a victim of such people like this, because I too easily take them at face value.
Now some of these people have converted, and walk in the faith while others have serious trouble staying on the straight and narrow.
When anyone changes their story, or things do not add up, or they seem to show no empathy, it is often time to close down. If someone has a cold heart, you cannot bring it into life, you are merely a person in the way of their grand goal or mission, you are nothing but an obstacle.
So be wise as serpents but as innocent as doves as there are many in sheeps clothing who have a heart of a wolf, to devour you and leave you for dead.
• grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
• lack of remorse or guilt
• failure to accept responsibility for own actions
• many short-term marital relationships
• shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
• callousness and lack of empathy
• poor behavioral controls
• sexual promiscuity
• pathological lying
• cunning and manipulativeness
Imagine you gave a person like this the gospel and they could preach it.
In all my tests on personality traits I would fall into the catagory of being a victim of such people like this, because I too easily take them at face value.
Now some of these people have converted, and walk in the faith while others have serious trouble staying on the straight and narrow.
When anyone changes their story, or things do not add up, or they seem to show no empathy, it is often time to close down. If someone has a cold heart, you cannot bring it into life, you are merely a person in the way of their grand goal or mission, you are nothing but an obstacle.
So be wise as serpents but as innocent as doves as there are many in sheeps clothing who have a heart of a wolf, to devour you and leave you for dead.