How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel
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Because that's just too good to be true, and in this world, too good to be true IS usually too good to be true.
And Grace humiliates us. It implies there is nothing we can do to please or appease God. "But I have to do something, I work for what I get." Grace rejects all human performance, human accomplishment and human sacrifice (of time, money, ability, etc)...all that we value in this world. To truly understanding the nature of grace is to decisively reject any confidence in ourselves, and to trust ourselves totally to Jesus.
And Grace humiliates us. It implies there is nothing we can do to please or appease God. "But I have to do something, I work for what I get." Grace rejects all human performance, human accomplishment and human sacrifice (of time, money, ability, etc)...all that we value in this world. To truly understanding the nature of grace is to decisively reject any confidence in ourselves, and to trust ourselves totally to Jesus.
There is no talking to EG.
My example is simple. A christian is not proving they are christian by walking in righteousness, they walk in righteousness because they are a christian.
If this is not a reality or even a goal in a believer, how can they claim to know Jesus.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
1 John 2:3
So those who disobey Jesus's commands do not know Him.
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
Righteousness is the litmus test of walking with Jesus.
To suggest otherwise is to go against scripture ie heresy.
The whole of 1 Corinthians is Paul rebuking and correcting the Corinthians using grace as a way of walking in sin.
Now I am not being deceptive in any shape or form, in fact it is impossible to be more plain. But that is I suppose the point, those who stand against the Lord and righteousness can only use slander and lies to achieve their goals.
My example is simple. A christian is not proving they are christian by walking in righteousness, they walk in righteousness because they are a christian.
If this is not a reality or even a goal in a believer, how can they claim to know Jesus.
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
1 John 2:3
So those who disobey Jesus's commands do not know Him.
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
Righteousness is the litmus test of walking with Jesus.
To suggest otherwise is to go against scripture ie heresy.
The whole of 1 Corinthians is Paul rebuking and correcting the Corinthians using grace as a way of walking in sin.
Now I am not being deceptive in any shape or form, in fact it is impossible to be more plain. But that is I suppose the point, those who stand against the Lord and righteousness can only use slander and lies to achieve their goals.
E
Not when you keep doing what you do..
Thats not what you said, You said waling in righteousness proves.. If you did not mean to say what you said, then just admit it, and stop trying to justify saying something you never said. in order to protect yourself.
It does not even prove they know jesus, A legalists who believe in Jesus wants to do good. and many do some morally good things, It does not prove they KNOW Jesus.
knowing who Jesus is, and KNOWING Jesus are two different things.
Saying you WANT To do good does not prove anything, Saul WANTED to do good when he was killing Christians. did this make him good or a true follower of God?
John said they have NEVER KNOWN HIM, so how could they have lost their salvation, if they NEVER KNEW HIM??
see where your issue lies. It is your gospel that is in error, not all of what you say is wrong, it has some semblance of truth in it, It is the gospel that is messed up. You have no security in christ, thus your security is in yourself. thats why you believe you can lose salvation.
Mother theresa was a righteous lady, Yet she believed in a works gospel. Did her righteous deeds prove she was saved?
See your major problem, your eternal focus is in the wrong place. it is in self. not God.
People who are saved do Gods work..
You believe salvation can be lost. thus you teach a false gospel. You rely on self. and not God. and everything you say proves this..
I was in a similar discussion with muslims once. The debate as similar, about love and how expressing love defined who we are as people. They did not understand this. I was shocked because on the scale of psychopathic behaviour they were way over on the extreme. Now look at IS, and you see what it leads to.
Now we have a similar discussion here. The evil people are the righteous, and those who are good are those who admit they can never be righteous in their behaviour and they do not need to be, at all.
And the crux of the problem, loving your enemy, identifying with your neighbour, carrying anothers burdens, doing good works to show how this love works.
Now if love burned in their hearts, took over their souls, righteousness would flow like water and this discussion would not even be taking place. But inside they are a total mess, and nothing came in their lives, so they have given up and decided to say righteousness is just hypocracy and legalism and the cause of the failure of the church.
I wonder if guns and power ever came into their hands, would we get CS state and murders if you did not agree to the right version of faith, because that is where the real evil lies.
Now we have a similar discussion here. The evil people are the righteous, and those who are good are those who admit they can never be righteous in their behaviour and they do not need to be, at all.
And the crux of the problem, loving your enemy, identifying with your neighbour, carrying anothers burdens, doing good works to show how this love works.
Now if love burned in their hearts, took over their souls, righteousness would flow like water and this discussion would not even be taking place. But inside they are a total mess, and nothing came in their lives, so they have given up and decided to say righteousness is just hypocracy and legalism and the cause of the failure of the church.
I wonder if guns and power ever came into their hands, would we get CS state and murders if you did not agree to the right version of faith, because that is where the real evil lies.
E
according to the law. All men are evil, Including you and me. Moses declared it in Deuteronomy and paul confirmed it in galations 3.
When you realize this, maybe you will finally understand grace
As long as you continue excusing your sinfulness, and keep judging others. you will never get a grasp as to what this means. and will continue to be self righteous..
sadly your really no different than the muslim, or the jew. Your relying on self and your good deeds to get you to heaven, not the cross of Christ.
When you realize this, maybe you will finally understand grace
As long as you continue excusing your sinfulness, and keep judging others. you will never get a grasp as to what this means. and will continue to be self righteous..
sadly your really no different than the muslim, or the jew. Your relying on self and your good deeds to get you to heaven, not the cross of Christ.
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21
If keeping Jesus's commandments is loving Him then amen, bring on this type of legalism.
Imagine a world full of people who walked in righteousness, who kept the commandments to Jesus fully?
Would it be a place of sin or a place of blessing?
Should we encourage people to live like this or to continue sinning?
There is a classic example is sexual addiction. Do you help an addict by giving them porn and stimulation until they are tired of it, or deal with the real core need and put the biological response into context?
If you cannot accept the need of structure and boundaries, what is good and to be encouraged and what is bad and needs police, army, prisons, schools, training to be involved you are not a functioning human being let alone a good christian.
Is there a place in the church for those who rebel against God and His commands? No.
John 15:10
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21
If keeping Jesus's commandments is loving Him then amen, bring on this type of legalism.
Imagine a world full of people who walked in righteousness, who kept the commandments to Jesus fully?
Would it be a place of sin or a place of blessing?
Should we encourage people to live like this or to continue sinning?
There is a classic example is sexual addiction. Do you help an addict by giving them porn and stimulation until they are tired of it, or deal with the real core need and put the biological response into context?
If you cannot accept the need of structure and boundaries, what is good and to be encouraged and what is bad and needs police, army, prisons, schools, training to be involved you are not a functioning human being let alone a good christian.
Is there a place in the church for those who rebel against God and His commands? No.
I think you really need to start asking yourself the right questions. Or hear the Lord, one or the other.
If you ask yourself, everyday, if you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and are of the "what have you done for me lately?" mentality, then you are constantly trying to prove, by your works, that you love Christ.
Is that really the way the Lord Jesus wants us to follow Him? By some guilty aspiration of loving Him the way He Loves You? Will you ever be able to rise to the bar that the Lord Jesus Christ has set?
The question a believer must ask him/her self everyday is "Don't you know that the Lord Jesus Christ loves YOU?" "Don't you know that God gave His Son for YOU?".
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
One question puts a person into bondage.
Another sets them free.
Romans 8:20-25
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
If you ask yourself, everyday, if you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and are of the "what have you done for me lately?" mentality, then you are constantly trying to prove, by your works, that you love Christ.
Is that really the way the Lord Jesus wants us to follow Him? By some guilty aspiration of loving Him the way He Loves You? Will you ever be able to rise to the bar that the Lord Jesus Christ has set?
The question a believer must ask him/her self everyday is "Don't you know that the Lord Jesus Christ loves YOU?" "Don't you know that God gave His Son for YOU?".
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
One question puts a person into bondage.
Another sets them free.
Romans 8:20-25
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
I definitely say the "old man" died with Christ...if we don not understand the "old man" is dead..our understanding of the new man in Christ will be warped.
There is a difference between the old way of thinking and habits that the old man had and is still in the flesh but the old man is dead. That is still here..which is why Eph 4:22..it says "In reference to your former mater of living...you lay aside the old man"... lay aside the old mans deeds in action and ways of thinking and conducting ourselves in this life.
....the "old man" is a goner if you are saved...he is dead, dead, dead. How many times have we put up the scriptures..many of them that prove our "old man" died with Christ..we were crucified with Him..If we died with Him we shall be raised with Him..
Without "knowing" that the old man is dead..it is impossible to even begin the new creation in Chjrist that we are,.,and how we are not enslaved to sin anymore....it is impossible to know about how " we live in Him"
Romans 6:5-8 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
There is a difference between the old way of thinking and habits that the old man had and is still in the flesh but the old man is dead. That is still here..which is why Eph 4:22..it says "In reference to your former mater of living...you lay aside the old man"... lay aside the old mans deeds in action and ways of thinking and conducting ourselves in this life.
....the "old man" is a goner if you are saved...he is dead, dead, dead. How many times have we put up the scriptures..many of them that prove our "old man" died with Christ..we were crucified with Him..If we died with Him we shall be raised with Him..
Without "knowing" that the old man is dead..it is impossible to even begin the new creation in Chjrist that we are,.,and how we are not enslaved to sin anymore....it is impossible to know about how " we live in Him"
Romans 6:5-8 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
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E
How about getting people saved first.
If a person is not saved, him keeping Gods commands is sort of useless is it not. Yes, they will not suffer the pains certain sins cause, and may have a better life here on earth, but what good is that if they are headed to hell??
You do not tell a person to get right with God, then God will save them, You tell them to get saved, And God will help you learn to act like him..
If a person is not saved, him keeping Gods commands is sort of useless is it not. Yes, they will not suffer the pains certain sins cause, and may have a better life here on earth, but what good is that if they are headed to hell??
You do not tell a person to get right with God, then God will save them, You tell them to get saved, And God will help you learn to act like him..
The old man is a gonner....his habits may still be here..but that is where the renewing of the mind comes in to who we are in Christ now..in our new inner man..created in Christ Jesus in righteousness and holiness.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Colossians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Brethren...the understanding that we have a new nature now in us is crucial to understanding the new creation in Christ..
Here is a short 18 minutes video which shows this perfectly..this is a guy that came from a church background that taught the old man was still there...so he comes at it by this perspective..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANH_RQ7z2BA
Here is a short 18 minutes video which shows this perfectly..this is a guy that came from a church background that taught the old man was still there...so he comes at it by this perspective..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANH_RQ7z2BA
Really, that is what you think.
What good deeds and what self? I am a sinner saved by grace, and without Jesus and the cross I am nothing.
Are you God? Can you see into my heart and call me unsaved?
I wish you could see my heart, and know my life, because then you might speak otherwise, though I doubt your opinions would change by seeing truth.
What good deeds and what self? I am a sinner saved by grace, and without Jesus and the cross I am nothing.
Are you God? Can you see into my heart and call me unsaved?
I wish you could see my heart, and know my life, because then you might speak otherwise, though I doubt your opinions would change by seeing truth.
E
How can I think otherwise, You reject the eternal security of the child of God based on Gods work and his promise. There is only one thing left..
then why would you even fathom, or spread fear that that salvation can be lost if you do not do certain things?
No, But I can listen to what you preach.. are you saying you may believe different than what you preach?
Your words speak quite plainly. I am not God, I can not judge you, only what you teach.
You teach salvation is not secure in christ, thus you teach man has a role in saving himself. God did not save hi completely.
then why would you even fathom, or spread fear that that salvation can be lost if you do not do certain things?
No, But I can listen to what you preach.. are you saying you may believe different than what you preach?
Your words speak quite plainly. I am not God, I can not judge you, only what you teach.
You teach salvation is not secure in christ, thus you teach man has a role in saving himself. God did not save hi completely.