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Amazing how one could think the most dark and evil being and the author of confusion is somehow a lightbringer full of wisdom and is anointed even though the Bible says otherwise.
Ezekiel 28:12
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."
Ezekiel 28:12
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."
-really, so rev 12:5 has not happened yet?
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
so Jesus is not on the right hand of God now?
also not all of Daniel and other prophets words not fulfilled yet.
and in Daniel 2:44: this [has not] happened yet “… and the kingdom shall not
be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume
all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
“All these kingdoms”refers to those four world-ruling kingdoms represented
by the great image. In other words, the kingdoms, or governments,of this world
will be consumed and replaced by the Kingdom of God.
When Christ returns as supreme Ruler, the governments of
this world will cease to exist. They will be replaced by God’s
Kingdom—His government—and administered his way by his family!
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 5:10 (KJV)
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
so Jesus is not on the right hand of God now?
also not all of Daniel and other prophets words not fulfilled yet.
and in Daniel 2:44: this [has not] happened yet “… and the kingdom shall not
be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume
all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
“All these kingdoms”refers to those four world-ruling kingdoms represented
by the great image. In other words, the kingdoms, or governments,of this world
will be consumed and replaced by the Kingdom of God.
When Christ returns as supreme Ruler, the governments of
this world will cease to exist. They will be replaced by God’s
Kingdom—His government—and administered his way by his family!
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 5:10 (KJV)
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
No, I do not believe much of Revelation has happened yet besides perhaps the writing of the 7 letters. Remember, the end times will all happen in one last generation that shall not pass away until all the end time signs come to pass.
Matthew 24:34-36
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:34-36
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Re: [T]he Assyrians
Assyria quickly became the most prosperous, powerful nation of the day.
Abraham Defeats the Assyrians in Genesis 14:1-2:
“And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar,
Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
That these made war.…” These four kings were allied as a gigantic Assyrian empire,
as Josephus pointed out: “At this time, when the Assyrians had the dominion
over Asia, the people of Sodom were in a flourishing condition …?.
[T]he Assyrians made war upon them; and, dividing their army into four parts,
fought against them. Now every part of the army had its own commander …
Amraphel, Arioch, Chodorlaomer and Tidal.
These kings had laid waste all Syria, and overthrown the offspring of the giants”
(Antiquities, i, ix, 1). Josephus confirmed that the four kings mentioned in Genesis
14 were in fact Assyrian.
Lange’s Commentary says, “According to Ktesias and others,
the Assyrians were the first to establish a world-dominion.”
The last king listed is Tidal, the “king of nations.” He ruled in the region
of Asia Minor. The name Tidal comes from a Hebrew word which means
“to fear, make afraid, dreadful and terrible.” For centuries, Assyria caused
many nations great fear!
These four Assyrian generals came to make war with the kings in Canaan.
The Assyrians routed the people of Canaan, including the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
And in taking captives, they captured Abraham’s wealthy nephew, Lot .
“And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed
his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen,
and pursued them unto Dan.
And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night,
and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on
the left hand of Damascus” (verses 14-15).
Josephus recorded that Abram and his men “marched hastily, and the
fifth night fell upon the Assyrians, near Dan…and before they could arm
themselves, he slew some as they were in their beds, before they could
suspect any harm; and others, who were not yet gone to sleep,
but were so drunk they could not fight, ran away”(Antiquities, i, x, 1).
that Abram also killed the four top leaders of the Assyrian empire,Genesis 14:17
It was a complete rout. The power of Assyria was smashed in one night.
The course of history was changed. Abraham and his descendants were able
to continue living peacefully in the land of Canaan free from Assyrian aggression.
And Egypt, without the Assyrian threat, grew into one of the leading nations in
the ancient world. God wanted Egypt to dominate the Middle East, not Assyria.
Egypt, though the people didn’t know it at the time, was preparing for the arrival
of Joseph and the children of Israel.
For the next 1,200 years, the Bible says little about Assyria.
But the Assyrians did not disappear. Their resurgence around 700 b.c.,
once again as a world power, proved to be yet another thorn in the Israelites’ side.
[Fierceness] Virtually every historian draws attention to the war-like nature of
the Assyrian people. James McCabe, author of History of the World, says they
were a “fierce, treacherous race, delighting in the dangers of the chase and in war.
The Assyrian troops were notably among the most formidable of ancient warriors.
They never kept faith when it was to their interest to break treaties, and were
regarded with suspicion by their neighbors in consequence of this characteristic.
In organization and equipment of their troops, and in their system of attack and defense
and their method of reducing fortified places, the Assyrians manifested a superiority to
the nations by which they were surrounded.”
Dr. Herman Hoeh, historian and author of Compendium of World History, wrote,
“Ancient Assyria was the greatest war-making power in all history”.
James Hastings wrote, “The Assyrians of historic times were more robust, warlike,
‘fierce,’ than the mild industrial Babylonians. The whole organization of the state
was essentially military” (“Assyria and Babylonia,” Dictionary of the Bible).
Leonard Cottrell, in Anvil of Civilization, wrote: “In all the annals of human conquest,
it is difficult to find any people more dedicated to bloodshed and slaughter than
the Assyrians. Their ferocity and cruelty have few parallels save in modern times.”
It’s interesting that Catrell can only compare their ferocity with those “in modern times.”
Many would admit that in the 20th century the Germans were dedicated to much bloodshed.
After 800 b.c., Assyria was poised and ready to take the world by storm.
Its resurgence would soon clash head-on with the powerful Israelites.
Assyria quickly became the most prosperous, powerful nation of the day.
Abraham Defeats the Assyrians in Genesis 14:1-2:
“And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar,
Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
That these made war.…” These four kings were allied as a gigantic Assyrian empire,
as Josephus pointed out: “At this time, when the Assyrians had the dominion
over Asia, the people of Sodom were in a flourishing condition …?.
[T]he Assyrians made war upon them; and, dividing their army into four parts,
fought against them. Now every part of the army had its own commander …
Amraphel, Arioch, Chodorlaomer and Tidal.
These kings had laid waste all Syria, and overthrown the offspring of the giants”
(Antiquities, i, ix, 1). Josephus confirmed that the four kings mentioned in Genesis
14 were in fact Assyrian.
Lange’s Commentary says, “According to Ktesias and others,
the Assyrians were the first to establish a world-dominion.”
The last king listed is Tidal, the “king of nations.” He ruled in the region
of Asia Minor. The name Tidal comes from a Hebrew word which means
“to fear, make afraid, dreadful and terrible.” For centuries, Assyria caused
many nations great fear!
These four Assyrian generals came to make war with the kings in Canaan.
The Assyrians routed the people of Canaan, including the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
And in taking captives, they captured Abraham’s wealthy nephew, Lot .
“And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed
his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen,
and pursued them unto Dan.
And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night,
and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on
the left hand of Damascus” (verses 14-15).
Josephus recorded that Abram and his men “marched hastily, and the
fifth night fell upon the Assyrians, near Dan…and before they could arm
themselves, he slew some as they were in their beds, before they could
suspect any harm; and others, who were not yet gone to sleep,
but were so drunk they could not fight, ran away”(Antiquities, i, x, 1).
that Abram also killed the four top leaders of the Assyrian empire,Genesis 14:17
It was a complete rout. The power of Assyria was smashed in one night.
The course of history was changed. Abraham and his descendants were able
to continue living peacefully in the land of Canaan free from Assyrian aggression.
And Egypt, without the Assyrian threat, grew into one of the leading nations in
the ancient world. God wanted Egypt to dominate the Middle East, not Assyria.
Egypt, though the people didn’t know it at the time, was preparing for the arrival
of Joseph and the children of Israel.
For the next 1,200 years, the Bible says little about Assyria.
But the Assyrians did not disappear. Their resurgence around 700 b.c.,
once again as a world power, proved to be yet another thorn in the Israelites’ side.
[Fierceness] Virtually every historian draws attention to the war-like nature of
the Assyrian people. James McCabe, author of History of the World, says they
were a “fierce, treacherous race, delighting in the dangers of the chase and in war.
The Assyrian troops were notably among the most formidable of ancient warriors.
They never kept faith when it was to their interest to break treaties, and were
regarded with suspicion by their neighbors in consequence of this characteristic.
In organization and equipment of their troops, and in their system of attack and defense
and their method of reducing fortified places, the Assyrians manifested a superiority to
the nations by which they were surrounded.”
Dr. Herman Hoeh, historian and author of Compendium of World History, wrote,
“Ancient Assyria was the greatest war-making power in all history”.
James Hastings wrote, “The Assyrians of historic times were more robust, warlike,
‘fierce,’ than the mild industrial Babylonians. The whole organization of the state
was essentially military” (“Assyria and Babylonia,” Dictionary of the Bible).
Leonard Cottrell, in Anvil of Civilization, wrote: “In all the annals of human conquest,
it is difficult to find any people more dedicated to bloodshed and slaughter than
the Assyrians. Their ferocity and cruelty have few parallels save in modern times.”
It’s interesting that Catrell can only compare their ferocity with those “in modern times.”
Many would admit that in the 20th century the Germans were dedicated to much bloodshed.
After 800 b.c., Assyria was poised and ready to take the world by storm.
Its resurgence would soon clash head-on with the powerful Israelites.
Re:the Assyrian
In his Compendium, Dr. Hoeh wrote, “In 745 a new dynasty sat upon the Assyrian
throne in Nineveh. It commenced with Tiglath-pileser iii. This dynasty existed to
the collapse of Assyria in 612? (Volume 1).
The Encyclopedia Britannica concurs with Dr. Hoeh’s synopsis:
“Under Tiglath-pileser iii arose the second Assyrian empire, which differed from
the first in its greater consolidation. For the first time in history the idea of centralization
was introduced into politics .… The Assyrian forces became a standing army, which, by
successive improvements and careful discipline, was molded into an irresistible fighting
machine, and Assyrian policy was directed towards the definite object of reducing the
whole civilized world into a single empire and thereby throwing its trade and wealth into
Assyrian hands” (“Babylonia and Assyria,” 11th edition).
Israel Taken Into Assyrian Captivity
2Kings 16, you will read of a war between Israel and the Jews.
Israel was allied with Aram (Syria).
Judah solicited the help of Tiglath-pileser, king of Assyria (2?Kings 16:7).
In defense of the Jews, the Assyrians attacked Aram first and Israel later.
In his 14th year of rule, Shalmaneser iii, Assyrian king at Calah, besieged the land
of Samaria, where the 10 tribes of Israel resided. The year was 721 b.c.
Notice 2 Kings 17:5-6: “Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land,
and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years [721-718].
In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria,
and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor
by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.”
Despite numerous warnings ,the people of Israel refused to turn from their
rebellion against God. It was God who sent the Assyrians as the rod of His
anger to take the Israelites into captivity (Isaiah 10:5).
They were removed out of their land. “For the children of Israel walked in all
the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; Until the Lord
removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets.
So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day” (2 Kings 17:22-23).
Josephus recorded that Shalmaneser “made an expedition against Samaria ..
besieged [it] three years and took it by force … and quite demolished the
government of the Israelites, and transplanted all the people into Media and Persia”
(Antiquities, ix, xiv, 1).
“In the years 721-718 b.c., the house of Israel was conquered and its people
were soon driven out of their own land—out of their homes and cities—
and carried captives to Assyria, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea!
And then … lost from view!” become known as the “lost 10 tribes” of Israel.
Because scholars and historians also lost sight of the Assyrians!
And during captivity, Israel went into Assyria, located anciently at
the southern shores of the Black and Caspian seas.
the Assyrians, when they migrated northwest into Central Europe seperated,
the Assyrians mainly settled into Central Europe, where Germany and Austria
are located today. the Israelites did not remain as slaves of the Assyrians.
the children of Israel scattered into Western Europe,
the Scandinavian peninsula, and the British Isles.
Before their migration, Periplus, who lived around 550 b.c., wrote,
“The coast of the Black Sea … is called Assyria” (Perrot and Chipiez,
History of Art in Sardinia, Judaea, Syria and Asia Minor, Volume 2).
In his Compendium, Dr. Hoeh wrote, “In 745 a new dynasty sat upon the Assyrian
throne in Nineveh. It commenced with Tiglath-pileser iii. This dynasty existed to
the collapse of Assyria in 612? (Volume 1).
The Encyclopedia Britannica concurs with Dr. Hoeh’s synopsis:
“Under Tiglath-pileser iii arose the second Assyrian empire, which differed from
the first in its greater consolidation. For the first time in history the idea of centralization
was introduced into politics .… The Assyrian forces became a standing army, which, by
successive improvements and careful discipline, was molded into an irresistible fighting
machine, and Assyrian policy was directed towards the definite object of reducing the
whole civilized world into a single empire and thereby throwing its trade and wealth into
Assyrian hands” (“Babylonia and Assyria,” 11th edition).
Israel Taken Into Assyrian Captivity
2Kings 16, you will read of a war between Israel and the Jews.
Israel was allied with Aram (Syria).
Judah solicited the help of Tiglath-pileser, king of Assyria (2?Kings 16:7).
In defense of the Jews, the Assyrians attacked Aram first and Israel later.
In his 14th year of rule, Shalmaneser iii, Assyrian king at Calah, besieged the land
of Samaria, where the 10 tribes of Israel resided. The year was 721 b.c.
Notice 2 Kings 17:5-6: “Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land,
and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years [721-718].
In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria,
and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor
by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.”
Despite numerous warnings ,the people of Israel refused to turn from their
rebellion against God. It was God who sent the Assyrians as the rod of His
anger to take the Israelites into captivity (Isaiah 10:5).
They were removed out of their land. “For the children of Israel walked in all
the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; Until the Lord
removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets.
So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day” (2 Kings 17:22-23).
Josephus recorded that Shalmaneser “made an expedition against Samaria ..
besieged [it] three years and took it by force … and quite demolished the
government of the Israelites, and transplanted all the people into Media and Persia”
(Antiquities, ix, xiv, 1).
“In the years 721-718 b.c., the house of Israel was conquered and its people
were soon driven out of their own land—out of their homes and cities—
and carried captives to Assyria, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea!
And then … lost from view!” become known as the “lost 10 tribes” of Israel.
Because scholars and historians also lost sight of the Assyrians!
And during captivity, Israel went into Assyria, located anciently at
the southern shores of the Black and Caspian seas.
the Assyrians, when they migrated northwest into Central Europe seperated,
the Assyrians mainly settled into Central Europe, where Germany and Austria
are located today. the Israelites did not remain as slaves of the Assyrians.
the children of Israel scattered into Western Europe,
the Scandinavian peninsula, and the British Isles.
Before their migration, Periplus, who lived around 550 b.c., wrote,
“The coast of the Black Sea … is called Assyria” (Perrot and Chipiez,
History of Art in Sardinia, Judaea, Syria and Asia Minor, Volume 2).
@prove-all I like the bringing up of the Genesis 14 War. Is good for the comparison and study more related to the Bible. To tie it into the topic; trying to ascertain Nimrod's character being hard in the Bible one tangent using Bible-only for the case of Nimrod the Villain is that he was a warlord. However, it is also a point to the tangent of Nimrod the Insignificant or Nimrod the Mighty, the Bible never actually says Nimrod fought any wars. Genesis 14 is actually the first time a war between nations and people is directly mentioned in the Bible.
My only nuance, and ya'll have to know it's coming is; why do we have to rely on Josephus or these other dubious scribes that didn't even live anywhere remotely close to the event and in most cases were not even Christians? There are no lost tribes of Israel, there's not even any lost tribes of the Gentiles in the Bible. It seems going by the text of Genesis alone kings from several nations, Elam, Ellasar, Shinar, and the enigmatic Tidal called "king of nations", four kings fought five Canaanite kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Bela/Zoar, and Zeboiim. Plus note the inclusion of Abraham a king and father of races in his own right whom at this point had no earthly kingdom or children fighting to save Lot whom of course becomes the father of the races of Moab and Ammon later on. Note that Abraham fought alongside the Canaanites, even the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah. Though indeed note the importance of the last part of the chapter too when they divide the spoil and Abraham not taking of the spoil for Abraham was victorious by God alone. So just because a kingdom or nation such as Sodom gets corrupted and destroyed not long afterwards doesn't indicate or make Abraham guilty for being confederate with the Canaanites in the war to save Lot.
On top of that very important to note is the aftermath with Melchizedek the king of Salem, and whom is very little talked about in the Bible, but is strongly hinted to be a believer of God even though obviously he wasn't a jew since Abraham didn't even have any kids at this time, maybe not even a Semite since he was a king in the land of Canaan. And of course important to note is Melchizedek, and even this war as an event, are part of the prophecies and NT teachings about Jesus (Hebrews 7). The Bible alone tells what people groups and nations and cities each were kings of, why they fought, and how it all went down. The Bible itself is the best source about this war.
We don't need to rely on the unbiblical sources. The Bible alone is sufficient. Forget Josephus, let us read what the Bible itself says and reason with each other about the first recorded war between nations and mortal kings. Remember fellow CCers ain't nothing against ya'll, I like ya'll which is why I keep talking to ya'll. Let us read and study and reason together, we don't need unbiblical sources, just need the Bible, each other, and Jesus.
Genesis 14
1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar
and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
My only nuance, and ya'll have to know it's coming is; why do we have to rely on Josephus or these other dubious scribes that didn't even live anywhere remotely close to the event and in most cases were not even Christians? There are no lost tribes of Israel, there's not even any lost tribes of the Gentiles in the Bible. It seems going by the text of Genesis alone kings from several nations, Elam, Ellasar, Shinar, and the enigmatic Tidal called "king of nations", four kings fought five Canaanite kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Bela/Zoar, and Zeboiim. Plus note the inclusion of Abraham a king and father of races in his own right whom at this point had no earthly kingdom or children fighting to save Lot whom of course becomes the father of the races of Moab and Ammon later on. Note that Abraham fought alongside the Canaanites, even the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah. Though indeed note the importance of the last part of the chapter too when they divide the spoil and Abraham not taking of the spoil for Abraham was victorious by God alone. So just because a kingdom or nation such as Sodom gets corrupted and destroyed not long afterwards doesn't indicate or make Abraham guilty for being confederate with the Canaanites in the war to save Lot.
On top of that very important to note is the aftermath with Melchizedek the king of Salem, and whom is very little talked about in the Bible, but is strongly hinted to be a believer of God even though obviously he wasn't a jew since Abraham didn't even have any kids at this time, maybe not even a Semite since he was a king in the land of Canaan. And of course important to note is Melchizedek, and even this war as an event, are part of the prophecies and NT teachings about Jesus (Hebrews 7). The Bible alone tells what people groups and nations and cities each were kings of, why they fought, and how it all went down. The Bible itself is the best source about this war.
We don't need to rely on the unbiblical sources. The Bible alone is sufficient. Forget Josephus, let us read what the Bible itself says and reason with each other about the first recorded war between nations and mortal kings. Remember fellow CCers ain't nothing against ya'll, I like ya'll which is why I keep talking to ya'll. Let us read and study and reason together, we don't need unbiblical sources, just need the Bible, each other, and Jesus.
Genesis 14
1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emins in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto Elparan, which is by the wilderness.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezontamar.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar
and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim;[SUP]9 [/SUP]With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.
Lol everyone can fathom that, it is after all the pop culture portrayal. I think what's not being fathomed here is if that were that so it implies a fall before the fall which maketh no sense. Also no such episode is described in the Bible.
I disagree, lions and angels are both creations and both being used in the chapters to describe the people talked about in their respective chapters and verses. Judah was like a lion's cub (note: Jesus is the lion of Judah), just like the King of Tyre was like an anointed cherub until iniquity found in him.
Also just kinda a sidenote to go back to SirJesusLive's comment about Eden that I been investigating somewhat lately. There was a city of Eden, that existed around same location and time and that is mentioned in various parts of the Bible such as Amos 1 (Tyre/Tyrus mentioned in this chapter also), Ezekiel 27, and 2 Kings 19. So it is plausible the Eden of Ezekiel 28 could be literally that city. Also obviously word Eden itself means House of God/Garden of God, so it's sort of a spiritual point too. Other than that there's also the trees of Eden prophecy in Ezekiel 31 where we see another human, the Pharoah king of Egypt and his armies likened to trees in Eden. Kind of thematic to Ezekiel.
Lol yay praise Jesus because he did physically return being resurrected all ready.
Lol though I get what you mean lady IS, you meaning the end of days, and indeed Jesus will return in that manner of full glory too, praise God.
John 21
1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
I disagree, lions and angels are both creations and both being used in the chapters to describe the people talked about in their respective chapters and verses. Judah was like a lion's cub (note: Jesus is the lion of Judah), just like the King of Tyre was like an anointed cherub until iniquity found in him.
Also just kinda a sidenote to go back to SirJesusLive's comment about Eden that I been investigating somewhat lately. There was a city of Eden, that existed around same location and time and that is mentioned in various parts of the Bible such as Amos 1 (Tyre/Tyrus mentioned in this chapter also), Ezekiel 27, and 2 Kings 19. So it is plausible the Eden of Ezekiel 28 could be literally that city. Also obviously word Eden itself means House of God/Garden of God, so it's sort of a spiritual point too. Other than that there's also the trees of Eden prophecy in Ezekiel 31 where we see another human, the Pharoah king of Egypt and his armies likened to trees in Eden. Kind of thematic to Ezekiel.
Lol yay praise Jesus because he did physically return being resurrected all ready.
Lol though I get what you mean lady IS, you meaning the end of days, and indeed Jesus will return in that manner of full glory too, praise God.
John 21
1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
[SUP]24 [/SUP]This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
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Re:Melchizedek king of Salem
maybe a believer of God?
the bible says he was the priest of the most high God.
and There is strong evidence that Melchizedek founded Jerusalem.
-and who where the origanal citizens of Salem, that where in canaan under this King
“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine:
and he was the priest of the most high God” (Genesis 14:18).
Melchizedek was king of Salem, which probably became known as “Jeru-salem.”
“For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham
returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;
first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem,
which is, King of peace” (Hebrews 7:1-2).
Salem means “peace.” Jerusalem means “city of peace.” If you understand the history
of Jerusalem, this could be likened to a sick joke! This city’s history has been filled with
rivers of blood. No city on Earth has had more bloodshed! No city has suffered like Jerusalem.
It has known almost no peace! That’s because man has ruled Jerusalem apart from God.
This blood-soaked city is yet to become a city of peace!
No other city has had such an incredible beginning. It was chosen by God and undoubtedly
founded by Melchizedek—the great Being who became Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:3).
Who could be without father, without mother, and have neither beginning nor ending of life?
This could only be the God who became Jesus Christ. Only God can be described this way.
And no man has ever seen God the Father.
maybe a believer of God?
the bible says he was the priest of the most high God.
and There is strong evidence that Melchizedek founded Jerusalem.
-and who where the origanal citizens of Salem, that where in canaan under this King
“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine:
and he was the priest of the most high God” (Genesis 14:18).
Melchizedek was king of Salem, which probably became known as “Jeru-salem.”
“For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham
returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;
first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem,
which is, King of peace” (Hebrews 7:1-2).
Salem means “peace.” Jerusalem means “city of peace.” If you understand the history
of Jerusalem, this could be likened to a sick joke! This city’s history has been filled with
rivers of blood. No city on Earth has had more bloodshed! No city has suffered like Jerusalem.
It has known almost no peace! That’s because man has ruled Jerusalem apart from God.
This blood-soaked city is yet to become a city of peace!
No other city has had such an incredible beginning. It was chosen by God and undoubtedly
founded by Melchizedek—the great Being who became Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:3).
Who could be without father, without mother, and have neither beginning nor ending of life?
This could only be the God who became Jesus Christ. Only God can be described this way.
And no man has ever seen God the Father.
@prove-all aye good points on the big post and Melchizedek I fully agree. On point of the serpent I agree he all ready cast down, he lost before he even started, but not as an angel of light in some sorta fall before the fall that does not exist within the Bible. From the moment the dragon lie to Eve he was cast down is moreso my point. That is the actual Fall in the Bible.
Yes indeed, basically man was given dominion of the earth by God, but the world was turned over to the dragon by the woman, but he did it by deceiving her through guile, through three lies with his evil dragon breath. Eve did not fully understand what she was doing. God had compassion on both Adam and Eve, an early show of the character of the Father and of Jesus. Jesus sent to save man and undo the wiles of the dragon. God will prevail forever, amen.
As far as I can tell there are only 3 instances of a SINGLE hunter in Scripture. named as "hunters" [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
Gen 10:9
[/TD]
[TD]He was a mighty [SUP]H1368[/SUP] hunter [SUP]H6718[/SUP] before [SUP]H6440[/SUP] the LORD: [SUP]H3068[/SUP] wherefore [SUP]H3651[/SUP] it is said, [SUP]H559[/SUP] Even as Nimrod [SUP]H5248[/SUP] the mighty [SUP]H1368[/SUP] hunter [SUP]H6718[/SUP] before [SUP]H6440[/SUP] the LORD. [SUP]H3068[/SUP]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
Gen 25:27
[/TD]
[TD]And the boys [SUP]H5288[/SUP] grew: [SUP]H1431[/SUP] and Esau [SUP]H6215[/SUP] was a cunning [SUP]H3045[/SUP] hunter, [SUP]H6718[/SUP] a man [SUP]H376[/SUP] of the field; [SUP]H7704[/SUP] and Jacob [SUP]H3290[/SUP] was a plain [SUP]H8535[/SUP] man, [SUP]H376[/SUP] dwelling [SUP]H3427[/SUP] in tents. [SUP]H168[/SUP]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
Pro 6:5
[/TD]
[TD]Deliver [SUP]H5337[/SUP] thyself as a roe [SUP]H6643[/SUP] from the hand [SUP]H3027[/SUP] of the hunter, and as a bird [SUP]H6833[/SUP] from the hand [SUP]H3027[/SUP] of the fowler
Certainly 2 have very negative connotations, and I don't think Nimrod being a mighty hunter before the Lord is a positive.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]He was a mighty [SUP]H1368[/SUP] hunter [SUP]H6718[/SUP] before [SUP]H6440[/SUP] the LORD: [SUP]H3068[/SUP] wherefore [SUP]H3651[/SUP] it is said, [SUP]H559[/SUP] Even as Nimrod [SUP]H5248[/SUP] the mighty [SUP]H1368[/SUP] hunter [SUP]H6718[/SUP] before [SUP]H6440[/SUP] the LORD. [SUP]H3068[/SUP]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]And the boys [SUP]H5288[/SUP] grew: [SUP]H1431[/SUP] and Esau [SUP]H6215[/SUP] was a cunning [SUP]H3045[/SUP] hunter, [SUP]H6718[/SUP] a man [SUP]H376[/SUP] of the field; [SUP]H7704[/SUP] and Jacob [SUP]H3290[/SUP] was a plain [SUP]H8535[/SUP] man, [SUP]H376[/SUP] dwelling [SUP]H3427[/SUP] in tents. [SUP]H168[/SUP]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]Deliver [SUP]H5337[/SUP] thyself as a roe [SUP]H6643[/SUP] from the hand [SUP]H3027[/SUP] of the hunter, and as a bird [SUP]H6833[/SUP] from the hand [SUP]H3027[/SUP] of the fowler
Certainly 2 have very negative connotations, and I don't think Nimrod being a mighty hunter before the Lord is a positive.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]