How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel

[gb9]

You could be right,

There are those of us who say Jesus saves completely

then those of us who says jesus gives us the opportunity to be saved, But that salvation is not assured..

But sadly there is a third group. Who say Jesus saves, Whether I repent or not. all I have to do is believe.. I do not have to repent..

so as I think of it, your only partially right.

the point I was attempting to make was if a person believes that salvation is based on Christ alone, then it is not based on my self-effort to earn. the good works come as a result of what was done. if a person believes that a opportunity has been provided, then it would up to the person to work at it to secure the opportunity successfully. self effort and works lead the way.

just seems from participating and observing these debates that those are kind of the sides. just a thought from my little brain.

 

[Willie-T]

well Ken, nor Peter believe we are completely saved, They believe salvation (justification) is not a one time event, but an ongoing process..

and herin lies the issue.

It is "an ongoing reality" only as long as Jesus lives.

 

[Jimbone]

No thats not the problem

The problem is pride, Men refusing to get out of the way and save them, The pride that leads to licentiousness, and legalism, which if one looks at reality, are one in the sae, the only differnce is one plays religion, and the other plays the world..

The problem is people want to keep saving themselves. Reject the fact God cam eto save them, And fail to realise. Salvation, eternal life, Justification are all terms used to denote God has restored the fellowship to mankind destroyed by the sin of Adam, And made us alive in him,

Bt this restoration does not mean man is perfect in this life a process of growing in Christ and being more like him (called sanctification) must take place. and is an ongoing thing until one is glorified at the resurrection.

People like you try to mix gthe two together, when it is not what God meant it to me..

Oh I couldn't agree with you more on this. Pride is the reason for these kind of debates, and it is on BOTH sides of it. Honestly if you can't see the pride in this very comment then maybe you can take a quit time, calm down, and come back and read it. I think the pride, again on BOTH sides, is what keeps you talking past each other so caught up in "teaching" someone or being right, that you are arguing against things that neither side has even said. I have decided that I too have been pulled into this, and just to ask a bunch of "what if" questions and argue with people about things that haven't been said and honestly I really agree with. That's just me and I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to do or how to be, I just wish we could come together instead of arguing for 21+ pages about the same basic thing. I just want everyone here that knows the Father, and has His His Holy Spirit in them that I love them. Even if they don't guess what, I love you too and pray He pulls you into the amazing gift Jesus bought for all of us with His life. Brothers and sisters I love you all and hope you all have a great weekend.

 

[PeterJens]

Again, I will not respond to gnostic crap anymore.

EG I am not sure you actually have any points. If I go up to a dispensing machine, put my money in and get the bar, it is not even a debate, it is just a push button response.

I look at things like this. Every argument has its flip side alternative. Many delusions or distortions exist by turning the truth on its head. So rather that people repenting of sinful acts and getting things right with those they hurt, it becomes spiritualised, removed, repackaged and turned into some super-spiritual rebirth and alien take over.

Unless you have the seed, you are doomed. Only those with the seed are the chosen, and once seeded you can never be unseeded so says the alien. The problem is the world is not seeded, there is only before the seeds came and after the seeds came. If you are an unseeded individual only the seeding will set you free. The instruction manual can only be viewed by the seeded to get the growth rules right.

If you argue with the seeding you are unseeded and so must be rejected. Only we the seeded will be saved.

Got the message, know the answer, not exactly much new here then.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the point I was attempting to make was if a person believes that salvation is based on Christ alone, then it is not based on my self-effort to earn. the good works come as a result of what was done. if a person believes that a opportunity has been provided, then it would up to the person to work at it to secure the opportunity successfully. self effort and works lead the way.

just seems from participating and observing these debates that those are kind of the sides. just a thought from my little brain.

Oh I agree.

And it would or should lead to the conclusion, Those who believe God saves believe in eternal security,

Those who things God just offers the opportunity to be saved do not..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is "an ongoing reality" only as long as Jesus lives.

Amen, And praise God Jesus will live forever..

 

[KennethC]

Mmmm we are COMPLETELY saved.. Thats not legalism once born again you cannot be 'born again'. of course..sanctification plays the major role here oh what is tht again? its not a one time event like justification or glorification.

Believing or faith is a continuous action, it is not a one time event..........

I think that is the issue some are having as they are confusing the ''being saved" with the "believing" or "faith" aspect.

People want to constantly go by what their church traditions or carried on teachings say rather they are right or wrong, and rather they align with the Word of God or not.

Lord Jesus showed and gave that there are 3 parts to believing in Him, not just one, and those 3 parts are:

1) Come to Him (This is done by God's word being spoken)

2) Hear what He says (Hearing what the word of God says to us)

3) Do what He says (Once faith has come from hearing we put our trust in obeying His teachings)

Belief is a 3 step process and Jesus showed this in Luke 6:46-49, and He also showed the opposite here that those who do not do have no foundation in Him. James takes it a step further and calls the hearer only deceived !!!

Yet now day doctrines will try to have you believe the doing in the faith does not matter, these are dark days we live in when God's word is picked apart and tossed aside...........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I am not sure you actually have any points. If I go up to a dispensing machine, put my money in and get the bar, it is not even a debate, it is just a push button response.

I look at things like this. Every argument has its flip side alternative. Many delusions or distortions exist by turning the truth on its head. So rather that people repenting of sinful acts and getting things right with those they hurt, it becomes spiritualised, removed, repackaged and turned into some super-spiritual rebirth and alien take over.

Unless you have the seed, you are doomed. Only those with the seed are the chosen, and once seeded you can never be unseeded so says the alien. The problem is the world is not seeded, there is only before the seeds came and after the seeds came. If you are an unseeded individual only the seeding will set you free. The instruction manual can only be viewed by the seeded to get the growth rules right.

If you argue with the seeding you are unseeded and so must be rejected. Only we the seeded will be saved.

Got the message, know the answer, not exactly much new here then.

So what your saying is, The Bible is not complete enough, we need to use sources outside the word of God. because the word of God is not good enough?

Now I understand where you come from. Thanks..

 

[PeterJens]

well Ken, nor Peter believe we are completely saved, They believe salvation (justification) is not a one time event, but an ongoing process..
and herin lies the issue.

I wish this was the issue, because we are all saved if we believe in Jesus and walk with Him.
The real issue is the gnostic idea of a perfect spirit that indwells the believer.

This changes the whole basis of behaviour, the walk, what sanctification actually is, what being in the Kingdom means, even what sin and righteousness is. You cannot get more fundamental than that.

As soon as people say conscience does not matter and conviction of sin is not from God, Jesus has left the room.

This is why polarisation is wrong, and saying this is what these people are taking issue with when that is plainly not true.

I know it will make zero difference to you hyper-grace guys because you walk with your closed minds and only see what you want to see.

But for those others who actually want to understand the gospel and Jesus is working in you, for you I share this.

 

[Willie-T]

So what your saying is, The Bible is not complete enough, we need to use sources outside the word of God. because the word of God is not good enough?

Now I understand where you come from. Thanks..

I'm not too sure I would go "dead-lock" with that. After all, didn't the eunuch reading the Scriptures in his chariot say to Phillip, "How can I understand what I am reading unless some man helps me by explaining it to me?" (slightly paraphrased, ONLY to make it fully clear in today's language...... It changes the meaning, not one bit.)

 

[phil36]

well Ken, nor Peter believe we are completely saved, They believe salvation (justification) is not a one time event, but an ongoing process..

and herin lies the issue.

We are at one time 'positionally' saved that is made right..justified. a one time action. Sanctification is an ongoing synergistic action???? and Glorification is a one time act.. You are saved, your 'are' being saved and will be saved.. the whole umbrella term 'salvation' covers this.

so 'positionally' a one time act of being justified. However, it does not stop there. It is that tension we all live with.

your salvation is not comlete until glorification, that is not legalistic...IT DOES NOT change your 'positional justification'. That is not legalistic.

 

[KennethC]

Oh I couldn't agree with you more on this. Pride is the reason for these kind of debates, and it is on BOTH sides of it. Honestly if you can't see the pride in this very comment then maybe you can take a quit time, calm down, and come back and read it. I think the pride, again on BOTH sides, is what keeps you talking past each other so caught up in "teaching" someone or being right, that you are arguing against things that neither side has even said. I have decided that I too have been pulled into this, and just to ask a bunch of "what if" questions and argue with people about things that haven't been said and honestly I really agree with. That's just me and I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to do or how to be, I just wish we could come together instead of arguing for 21+ pages about the same basic thing. I just want everyone here that knows the Father, and has His His Holy Spirit in them that I love them. Even if they don't guess what, I love you too and pray He pulls you into the amazing gift Jesus bought for all of us with His life. Brothers and sisters I love you all and hope you all have a great weekend.

Yes we should be talking to and not at others and show the fruit of the Holy Spirit with one another.

We should not be running around condemning and calling others heretic's just because of disagreements or not seeing eye to eye in certain areas.

Love goes further then unfruitful name calling and belittling......

And another thing pride does is it does not know how to let go and move on, but instead carries on grudges..........Pride is dangerous and we all get caught up in at times, and one thing it seems pride does do also is call defending obeying the Lord's teachings out of love as being licentious.

Praise God for by His Holy Spirit I would not be able to be confirmed to obeying His ways more and more each day !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are at one time 'positionally' saved that is made right..justified. a one time action. Sanctification is an ongoing synergistic action???? and Glorification is a one time act.. You are saved, your 'are' being saved and will be saved.. the whole umbrella term 'salvation' covers this.

so 'positionally' a one time act of being justified. However, it does not stop there. It is that tension we all live with.

your salvation is not comlete until glorification, that is not legalistic...IT DOES NOT change your 'positional justification'. That is not legalistic.

Your right, it is not legalistic.. We realise the result of our salvation on the day of Jesus, We are sealed until that day as a guarantee, or pledge of Gods promise to us (eph 1: 13 - 4)

The problem is, Ken and Peter believe you can be saved today, And not make it to heaven, It can be lost. thus it is an ongoing process, because it is not assured..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not too sure I would go "dead-lock" with that. After all, didn't the eunuch reading the Scriptures in his chariot say to Phillip, "How can I understand what I am reading unless some man helps me by explaining it to me?" (slightly paraphrased, ONLY to make it fully clear in today's language...... It changes the meaning, not one bit.)

So do you know any gnositcs today who can explain to you what they believed?

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what I believe the grace of our Lord Jesus has to say about "sanctification"..the word itself means = "to be set apart"

We are perfectly sanctified in Christ now....very true....we as an identity the new creation in Christ will never be more holy....however there is a "sanctifying" of our behavior that is on-going that reflects our true nature in Christ...so in essence...we are becoming outwardly who we really are in our inner man which is in Christ.

God sets apart ( sanctifies ) our attitudes and actions outwardly but you are 100% set apart ( sanctified ) as a person..the real you in your inner man..the new creation in Christ.

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. ( this is present passive..passive is that something is being done to you - you are not doing it...the Spirit of the Lord in us changing us. )

Here is what Jesus told Paul on the road to Damascus....having been sanctified ( perfect passive )..= done deal

Acts 26:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' ( perfect passive )



Sanctification to our "religious minds" could mean a lot of different things to different people as it depends on the religious beliefs formulated from our backgrounds...no doing the "biggie sins"...and could also be things like..no smoking..no drinking..no going to church..no reading your bible every day..no praying for an hour each day.....no going to a movie...reading a newspaper...no being a servant of God...to the religious mindset no doing "what I don't do.."..etc

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

o.k, I have thinking about this for a while, and I ask everyone to please consider this question: does Jesus save or, think about this please, or does Jesus provide a opportunity to be saved. seems to me this is at the heart of the these conversations.

I think both. He saves us from the penalty of sin, and gives us the tools and opportunity to know him, and guards us along the way. In the end, though, only those he knows will enter into life.

And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. The one who says “I know him,” and does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this person. But whoever keeps his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him. 1 John 2:3-5​

 

[KennethC]

I'm not too sure I would go "dead-lock" with that. After all, didn't the eunuch reading the Scriptures in his chariot say to Phillip, "How can I understand what I am reading unless some man helps me by explaining it to me?" (slightly paraphrased, ONLY to make it fully clear in today's language...... It changes the meaning, not one bit.)

Let's put it this way say you are an unbeliever reading the bible, this means there is no abiding of the Holy Spirit in you.

Do you think just by reading the Word of God in this state you would be able to comprehend what is being said ???

No because you would be in a carnal state of mind trying to read and understand a book that is the Word of God which has spiritual knowledge to it that can only be understood by the spiritually minded.

The only way to become spiritually minded is to be born again and have the Holy Spirit placed within us by God, and only then will these spiritual Truths be revealed to us in the Word.

The eunuch also asked Phillip about baptism and what prevented him from being baptized, and Phillip said nothing if he believed with all of his heart.

Heart is the matter of the faith, which is why both Jesus and Paul both said love is greater than faith. A head knowledge gains nothing and saves nobody, but a personal intimate relationship is what is required of the faith !!!

 

[Willie-T]

So what your saying is, The Bible is not complete enough, we need to use sources outside the word of God. because the word of God is not good enough?

Now I understand where you come from. Thanks..

So do you know any gnositcs today who can explain to you what they believed?

That question has nothing to do with what was asked in your first "quote" above. I am pointing out that to say the Bible is all that we ever need is a bit limiting. It suggests that however any of us happens to interpret the Bible is the perfect truth. And we can see right here on this forum that isn't so.

 

[PeterJens]

So what your saying is, The Bible is not complete enough, we need to use sources outside the word of God. because the word of God is not good enough?

Now I understand where you come from. Thanks..

Got to admire this attempt at stabbing in the dark. The bible is a record of mans experiences with God, but it is not complete, it is a window of reality, it is not the relationship itself.

Jesus is the message of God, and the Holy Spirit at work in our hearts is our personal revelation. They all reflect an echo in one glorious choir of glory to God.

Truth exists everywhere, like love, like life, like experiences.

The statement "the word of God is not good enough" is so religious in its tone and content.
"I am the way, the truth and the Life" How many ways can you understand this? I can think of 100's.

Until you know what the bible is and what it testifies to and how it works in the believer, you will continue to talk like you do.

"I am the way" - Jesus's life is the cornerstone of reality. In His emotional expression is the essence of life and everything.

Follow Him and you will find life, and life eternal.

So the bible is the reflection of the Lord and Him touching mankind. It will go on into eternity, and will forever develop in the hearts of the Body of Christ.

So you are an alien to me, a stranger in a far off city, straining at the wind while the wonder of the Kingdom passes you by.

 

[phil36]

Your right, it is not legalistic.. We realise the result of our salvation on the day of Jesus, We are sealed until that day as a guarantee, or pledge of Gods promise to us (eph 1: 13 - 4)

The problem is, Ken and Peter believe you can be saved today, And not make it to heaven, It can be lost. thus it is an ongoing process, because it is not assured..

All I can say is thats their loss of comfort in assurance.

Assurance of salvation is a different debate (its a justification area) than what actually is being discussed and that is of hyper grace..which is mainly a sanctification issue and is where people have went wrong in their reaction against legalism... legalism and hyper grace are both extremes and both in error. (I realise that they do intertwine etc).