The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[blondieindahouse]

Hi Ben,

I have to thank you for the civil discussion aswell. Basically we agree in a lot of areas. we agree its most certainly all of grace.

The Bible teaches that christians should seek forgiveness its one of those strands intertwined all the way through scripture. Psalm 32 for instance (remember the Psalm writer was already a justified believer), its in the teaching of Jesus Matt 6:12; Mark 11:25 this teach direct from christ to those who where his followers and to us who are in Him.

1 John ch 1, is important here as it is refering to believers (personal pronouns v5). Accordingly the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness are continious. remember that John wrote to already justified borna gain believers (cf.5:13).

I do have to thank someone else for making this clear in my own mind... This is the difference between us:

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

Nuff said.....................

I guess that puts many discussions to bed. It throws out the "sin consciousness" thread and all the other WOF hyperbole. Thanks.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hi Ben,

I have to thank you for the civil discussion aswell. Basically we agree in a lot of areas. we agree its most certainly all of grace.

The Bible teaches that christians should seek forgiveness its one of those strands intertwined all the way through scripture. Psalm 32 for instance (remember the Psalm writer was already a justified believer), its in the teaching of Jesus Matt 6:12; Mark 11:25 this teach direct from christ to those who where his followers and to us who are in Him.

1 John ch 1, is important here as it is refering to believers (personal pronouns v5). Accordingly the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness are continious. remember that John wrote to already justified borna gain believers (cf.5:13).

I do have to thank someone else for making this clear in my own mind... This is the difference between us:

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

Why don't you check out some of the other threads. This has all been dealt with ad nuseum over the last few months.

 

[phil36]

Why don't you check out some of the other threads. This has all been dealt with ad nuseum over the last few months.

I have read them and they don't thanks anyhow. But I will leave you to read this again.


But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have read them and they don't thanks anyhow. But I will leave you to read this again.


But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

No, you obviously haven't read them.

 

[phil36]

No, you obviously haven't read them.

Ok


But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

 

[Willie-T]

But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?

The answer is not "Yes" to one, and then come up with a "qualified" explanatory reply to the other.

The answer to both is, "Yes."

 

[FreeNChrist]

Ok


But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

All quotes are from John MacArthur.

Parental forgiveness and judicial forgiveness are just made up terms to try and work around an obvious flaw in understanding. Remove that flaw, and the need for such silliness simply disappears.

 

[phil36]

Parental forgiveness and judicial forgiveness are just made up terms to try and work around an obvious flaw in understanding. Remove that flaw, and the need for such silliness simply disappears.

I'l stick with scripture freeNchrist. but thanks for your thoughts.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I'l stick with scripture freeNchrist. but thanks for your thoughts.

LOL. Where do you find "judicial forgiveness" or "parental forgiveness" in scripture?

 

[phil36]

LOL. Where do you find "judicial forgiveness" or "parental forgiveness" in scripture?

heres some explanatory notes to go with it. It might help you...but just go back and read.

• Let me show you the difference:
  - Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
  - Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
  - Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.
  Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.
  In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you. That's the thought ofHebrews 12:5-11where some form of the word discipline is used seven times. Divine displeasure over your sin brings discipline, reproof, and scourging. That's a good thing, not only because it helps rid your life of sin, but it also shows His love for you and confirms your relationship to Him — "those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives" (v. 6).
  God's discipline — sometimes involving punishment for disobedience — is painful; no one will argue with that. But you must remember: He is causing you to share in His holiness (v. 10); He is training you (v. 11); He is producing in you the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v. 11). So when you have sinned, humble yourself, confess your sin, and submit to His loving discipline.
  Remorse over sin, daily confession, and a continual attitude of repentance are marks of a healthy Christian life. What's the benefit? Look again at 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness" (italics added). Forgiveness and cleansing — those promises are as refreshing to the sinner as a cold drink of water to a thirsty man.
  David testified to the power of confession in Psalm 32: "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer…I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my sin to the Lord"; and You forgave the guilt of my sin" (vv. 4-5). The guilt of David's sin affected him physically — he found relief only through full confession.
  We've already discussed the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness — the latter is in view in 1 John 1:9. It is a subjective, relational kind of forgiveness. It is the restoration to a place of blessing in the eyes of a displeased father. Similarly, the cleansing of 1 John 1:9 doesn't refer to regeneration. Rather, it is a spiritual washing to rid you of the defilement caused by sin in your daily walk. The verse is speaking of an ongoing pardon and purification from sin, not the cleansing and forgiveness of salvation.
  The pardon of justification and the washing of regeneration do not eliminate the need for you to deal with the subjective reality of sin in your life. If you entertain such an idea, you will either be consumed by your guilt or you will steel yourself against the pangs of your conscience — either reaction will separate you from a loving Father.
• 
  Instead, keep confessing your sins; seek God's forgiveness and cleansing daily. As the verse says, He is faithful to Himself to forgive your sins and He is just, having already made full atonement for your sins through the sacrifice of His beloved Son. When you confess your sins, you are restored by a loving Father who delights to shower the brokenhearted and repentant with His mercy and compassion.
  
• Adapted from The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, © 1998 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.
  
  This article originally appeared here at Grace to You.

Read the article freeNchrist.

 

[FreeNChrist]

heres some explanatory notes to go with it. It might help you...but just go back and read.

• Let me show you the difference:
  - Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
  - Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
  - Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.
  Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.
  In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you. That's the thought ofHebrews 12:5-11where some form of the word discipline is used seven times. Divine displeasure over your sin brings discipline, reproof, and scourging. That's a good thing, not only because it helps rid your life of sin, but it also shows His love for you and confirms your relationship to Him — "those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives" (v. 6).
  God's discipline — sometimes involving punishment for disobedience — is painful; no one will argue with that. But you must remember: He is causing you to share in His holiness (v. 10); He is training you (v. 11); He is producing in you the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v. 11). So when you have sinned, humble yourself, confess your sin, and submit to His loving discipline.
  Remorse over sin, daily confession, and a continual attitude of repentance are marks of a healthy Christian life. What's the benefit? Look again at 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness" (italics added). Forgiveness and cleansing — those promises are as refreshing to the sinner as a cold drink of water to a thirsty man.
  David testified to the power of confession in Psalm 32: "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer…I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my sin to the Lord"; and You forgave the guilt of my sin" (vv. 4-5). The guilt of David's sin affected him physically — he found relief only through full confession.
  We've already discussed the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness — the latter is in view in 1 John 1:9. It is a subjective, relational kind of forgiveness. It is the restoration to a place of blessing in the eyes of a displeased father. Similarly, the cleansing of 1 John 1:9 doesn't refer to regeneration. Rather, it is a spiritual washing to rid you of the defilement caused by sin in your daily walk. The verse is speaking of an ongoing pardon and purification from sin, not the cleansing and forgiveness of salvation.
  The pardon of justification and the washing of regeneration do not eliminate the need for you to deal with the subjective reality of sin in your life. If you entertain such an idea, you will either be consumed by your guilt or you will steel yourself against the pangs of your conscience — either reaction will separate you from a loving Father.
• 
  Instead, keep confessing your sins; seek God's forgiveness and cleansing daily. As the verse says, He is faithful to Himself to forgive your sins and He is just, having already made full atonement for your sins through the sacrifice of His beloved Son. When you confess your sins, you are restored by a loving Father who delights to shower the brokenhearted and repentant with His mercy and compassion.
  
• Adapted from The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, © 1998 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.
  
  This article originally appeared here at Grace to You.

Johnny Mac gets some stuff right. This isn't some of it.

 

[phil36]

Johnny Mac gets some stuff right. This isn't some of it.

Prove it

 

[Grace777x70]

Forgiveness is a done deal bought for by the blood of our Lord. Despite what our religious upbringing has taught us. This is what scripture has to say about forgiveness but men's made up terms to support their religious views.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

Perfect Tense

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.

In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous state and that was put on them....not something they did


Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Here are some more scriptures on the forgiveness of God thru the precious blood of our Lord!....


Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...and look...that hyper-grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins


Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Prove it

We already have. The need for such silliness all revolves around that one little verse 1 John 1:9.

 

[blondieindahouse]

Parental forgiveness and judicial forgiveness are just made up terms to try and work around an obvious flaw in understanding. Remove that flaw, and the need for such silliness simply disappears.

Sin consciousness vs righteous consciousness is some made up terms to work around an obvious flaw in understanding

 

[FreeNChrist]

Sin consciousness vs righteous consciousness is some made up terms to work around an obvious flaw in understanding

You "reckon" ?

 

[Grace777x70]

Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place

Pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we( believers ) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics [/B]) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

There. I fixed it for you.

"We (apostles) proclaim to you (believers) what we have seen and heard, so that you (believers) also may have fellowship with us (apostles). And our (apostles) fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics [/B]) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

There. I fixed it for you.

"We (Jewish believers) proclaim to you (gentile believers) what we have seen and heard, so that you (gentile believers) also may have fellowship with us (Jewish believers). And our (Jewish believers) fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).​

 

[phil36]

Hi Grace777x70..

This can be solved very very very easily. John is writing to believers is it so simple and obvious.. He is writing to them to correct a false view.. can you see the difference. elementary stuff.

In 1 john, the author calls readers back to the three basics of christian life.

1) True doctrie
2)Obedience
3)fervent devotion

Because 'God is light' Christs followersovercome evildoers who seek to subvert them. The one who lives in and among them - Gods Son - is greater than the spirit of 'the antichrist' now in the world. To believe in the name of the Son of God is to know the assurance of eternal life. (ESV)

Thats 1 John in a nutshell.. false teaching and teaching with error has always been a problem


1 john 5:13