The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
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Striving in the flesh is a matter of the mind. Also working to abide in what GOD says we are is not the same thing as trying to be what GOD says we are. The two options that you described are a false dichotomy.
One thing I find interesting is that new.modern.hyper grace devotees always talk about how important it is to focus only on Jesus, then in the next breath say how critical it is to focus on themselves (their identity). I've only found peace focusing on Jesus.
One thing I find interesting is that new.modern.hyper grace devotees always talk about how important it is to focus only on Jesus, then in the next breath say how critical it is to focus on themselves (their identity). I've only found peace focusing on Jesus.
Hi Ben,
I think we can all agree we strive to be Christlike - yet we can only do that by focusing on Christ Himself and by the renewing of our minds...and that in itself is from grace. I can agree that we are indeed dead to sin and yet I also recognise the tension in which we live. This does mean that I do not know who I am in Christ, A new creation, righteouss before God. I have said a few times we need to focus in where we differ and not where we agree. And so far you are the only one willing to do that.
I also try and avoid sin like the plague - when temptation comes flee (if acted upon it will lead to sin). I actually couldn't agree more with what you have written.
I do not think that it is the norm that christians who don't understand the disciplines of grace..point out in judgement others. Yes, legalists probably will be they are not the norm.
Yet, the mature christian knows he is dead to sin, and he has the imputed righteousness of Christ and when God see's him he see's His son. Yet the more mature a christian becomes the more he see's this grace and how great the sacrifice of his Lord and Saviour and therefore feels all more sorrow when he does sin and knows he has displeased the Father (not lost his salvation 'positional justification'), and repents with sorrowful tears and rejoices with the great faithfulness of our great gracious God who is faithful, faithful to forgive and restore into a right relationship. Now that is a most wonderful grace.
Christians do struggle with sin. However, we should not go the legalist route and try by our own might.. and on the other side we must not ignore the seriousness of our sin (any sin committed is first of all commited against God) we grieve the Holy Sirit in us.. We need to have a right balanced view. That is why repentance and a meaningful repentance is necessary and a means of grace given to us. Its not merely an acknowledgement and a turn.
I like this quote that you put up on another thread..and it says it all..
"You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
"You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.
The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose. The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!
The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).
We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.
.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God. “Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."
Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ
See now, sin is serious and that is exactly why Jesus died on the cross for it. Sin has been dealt with. The idea of sin confession is at odds with the finished work of Jesus Christ at the cross. Is sin dealt with or is it not? Did Christ do one sacrifice for sin, once and for all or must there be forgiveness found outside of His work? One that is based upon my own remembrance and ability to confess continuously and religiously?
I do not frustrate the grace of God. Sin confession for forgiveness places forgiveness in the hands of men when it is Christ who has already purchased it with His blood. VVe place faith in Jesus and have that forgiveness, eternally. It is not something lost and regained, as I believe you would come in agreement with.
The idea of sin confession for right relationship (not forgiveness) too is at odds with the Gospel. The Gospel has in it the plan of reconciliation, and we are reconciled to God. Sin does not separate us from the Lord because when God sees us He sees Jesus. He, Jesus, imputed His righteousness to us. Even so, it is written that our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, He remembers our sins no more, and as King David wrote in the Psalms "blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity."
How does sin affect right relationship with God when the whole Gospel is in fact dealing with sin so that man may reconcile to God? I think I resound Jesus' words, "It is finished!" Reconciliation has been made.
Romans 8:38-39King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I do not frustrate the grace of God. Sin confession for forgiveness places forgiveness in the hands of men when it is Christ who has already purchased it with His blood. VVe place faith in Jesus and have that forgiveness, eternally. It is not something lost and regained, as I believe you would come in agreement with.
The idea of sin confession for right relationship (not forgiveness) too is at odds with the Gospel. The Gospel has in it the plan of reconciliation, and we are reconciled to God. Sin does not separate us from the Lord because when God sees us He sees Jesus. He, Jesus, imputed His righteousness to us. Even so, it is written that our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, He remembers our sins no more, and as King David wrote in the Psalms "blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity."
How does sin affect right relationship with God when the whole Gospel is in fact dealing with sin so that man may reconcile to God? I think I resound Jesus' words, "It is finished!" Reconciliation has been made.
Romans 8:38-39King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I always found that sin caused me to separate myself from God....just like in the garden when Adam hid from God even though God knoew...he still came to walk with Adam and Eve as before...
Sin is deceitful!...it changes our attitude towards our loving Father because of ignorance of the knowledge of Him. Now knowing the great finished work of Jesus and the shedding of His blood for our redemption...we run to our Father and Lord to thank Him for His grace and mercy!
Sin is deceitful!...it changes our attitude towards our loving Father because of ignorance of the knowledge of Him. Now knowing the great finished work of Jesus and the shedding of His blood for our redemption...we run to our Father and Lord to thank Him for His grace and mercy!
Hi Ben,
Thanks for that and can I say you are the only one who can actually articulated 'the so called hyper grace'.
I don't fustrate the grace of God either. Confession of sin is not in the hands of men as scripture clearly teaches. Only God can forgive sins.
I would whole heartedly agree with the above statement, however, I would say nothing replaces the other. All christians are in Christ and positionally justified.. thats part of relationship sin does not change that..this is where you misunderstand! And yes I agree as a child of God sin does not seperate us from God
And yes as I have said a few times The father when he see's us he see's His son. And yes I agree with Jesus words regarding his work on the cross and God fulfiling his plan of redemption..It is finnished (already - not yet).
I also agre that we don't dwell on our sins,,,as someone else has said we run to christ.
I understand what you are saying. and we agree most of that. I don't think you understand what I am saying...I also agree wholeheartedly with the scripture provided. Nothing can seperate us from Christ. reconciliation has indeed been made and nothing will break that. I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating these things. There is never forgiveness found outside Christ and no christian would disagree. Christ died for your sin (ours etc).
Christians are not condemned for sinning either as there is now no more condemnation. grace is wonderful.
There is on major point I will point out you say:
Why do you think this when the bible clearly is at odd with your ''confessing'' statement??
So here is a question for you..how do you think I can agree with so much of what you have said even the important parts of your argument..yet believe you are in error?
Thanks for that and can I say you are the only one who can actually articulated 'the so called hyper grace'.
I don't fustrate the grace of God either. Confession of sin is not in the hands of men as scripture clearly teaches. Only God can forgive sins.
I would whole heartedly agree with the above statement, however, I would say nothing replaces the other. All christians are in Christ and positionally justified.. thats part of relationship sin does not change that..this is where you misunderstand! And yes I agree as a child of God sin does not seperate us from God
And yes as I have said a few times The father when he see's us he see's His son. And yes I agree with Jesus words regarding his work on the cross and God fulfiling his plan of redemption..It is finnished (already - not yet).I also agre that we don't dwell on our sins,,,as someone else has said we run to christ.
I understand what you are saying. and we agree most of that. I don't think you understand what I am saying...I also agree wholeheartedly with the scripture provided. Nothing can seperate us from Christ. reconciliation has indeed been made and nothing will break that. I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating these things. There is never forgiveness found outside Christ and no christian would disagree. Christ died for your sin (ours etc).
Christians are not condemned for sinning either as there is now no more condemnation. grace is wonderful.
There is on major point I will point out you say:
Why do you think this when the bible clearly is at odd with your ''confessing'' statement??
So here is a question for you..how do you think I can agree with so much of what you have said even the important parts of your argument..yet believe you are in error?
Hi Ben,
Thanks for that and can I say you are the only one who can actually articulated 'the so called hyper grace'.
I don't fustrate the grace of God either. Confession of sin is not in the hands of men as scripture clearly teaches. Only God can forgive sins.
I would whole heartedly agree with the above statement, however, I would say nothing replaces the other. All christians are in Christ and positionally justified.. thats part of relationship sin does not change that..this is where you misunderstand! And yes I agree as a child of God sin does not seperate us from God And yes as I have said a few times The father when he see's us he see's His son. And yes I agree with Jesus words regarding his work on the cross and God fulfiling his plan of redemption..It is finnished (already - not yet).
I also agre that we don't dwell on our sins,,,as someone else has said we run to christ.
I understand what you are saying. and we agree most of that. I don't think you understand what I am saying...I also agree wholeheartedly with the scripture provided. Nothing can seperate us from Christ. reconciliation has indeed been made and nothing will break that. I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating these things. There is never forgiveness found outside Christ and no christian would disagree. Christ died for your sin (ours etc).
Christians are not condemned for sinning either as there is now no more condemnation. grace is wonderful.
There is on major point I will point out you say:
Why do you think this when the bible clearly is at odd with your ''confessing'' statement??
So here is a question for you..how do you think I can agree with so much of what you have said even the important parts of your argument..yet believe you are in error?
Thanks for that and can I say you are the only one who can actually articulated 'the so called hyper grace'.
I don't fustrate the grace of God either. Confession of sin is not in the hands of men as scripture clearly teaches. Only God can forgive sins.
I would whole heartedly agree with the above statement, however, I would say nothing replaces the other. All christians are in Christ and positionally justified.. thats part of relationship sin does not change that..this is where you misunderstand! And yes I agree as a child of God sin does not seperate us from God
And yes as I have said a few times The father when he see's us he see's His son. And yes I agree with Jesus words regarding his work on the cross and God fulfiling his plan of redemption..It is finnished (already - not yet).I also agre that we don't dwell on our sins,,,as someone else has said we run to christ.
I understand what you are saying. and we agree most of that. I don't think you understand what I am saying...I also agree wholeheartedly with the scripture provided. Nothing can seperate us from Christ. reconciliation has indeed been made and nothing will break that. I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating these things. There is never forgiveness found outside Christ and no christian would disagree. Christ died for your sin (ours etc).
Christians are not condemned for sinning either as there is now no more condemnation. grace is wonderful.
There is on major point I will point out you say:
Why do you think this when the bible clearly is at odd with your ''confessing'' statement??
So here is a question for you..how do you think I can agree with so much of what you have said even the important parts of your argument..yet believe you are in error?
I am not sure what you are referencing in your last paragraph. Explain to me what error you believe me to be in. Thanks for a civil discussion, btw.
I have to thank you for the civil discussion aswell. Basically we agree in a lot of areas. we agree its most certainly all of grace.
The Bible teaches that christians should seek forgiveness its one of those strands intertwined all the way through scripture. Psalm 32 for instance (remember the Psalm writer was already a justified believer), its in the teaching of Jesus Matt 6:12; Mark 11:25 this teach direct from christ to those who where his followers and to us who are in Him.
1 John ch 1, is important here as it is refering to believers (personal pronouns v5). Accordingly the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness are continious. remember that John wrote to already justified borna gain believers (cf.5:13).
I do have to thank someone else for making this clear in my own mind... This is the difference between us:
But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).
All quotes are from John MacArthur.