The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[ladylynn]

We already have. The need for such silliness all revolves around that one little verse 1 John 1:9.

From the time we get saved it is standard procedure in many churches to teach 1John 1:9 and most of us were raised on this so we know we can be forgiven when we sin. Good solid Bible teachers teach that 1John 1:9 is for believers and they disagree with the other preachers and teachers that this is to the Gnostic's.

There is a time when you live through something with Jesus and know in your spirit that a verse is to be taken a different way than you used to believe. We are never too old to learn Bible truths. And sometimes we will actually disagree with good solid Bible teachers and preachers that we agree wholeheartedly with on other Bible verses. Not all believers will agree 100% but we do all believe on the major doctrines of the Christian faith.

It is an amazing truth to know that God deals with us individually and we learn one on one with the Holy Spirit. That is why we are responsible for how close we get to the Lord. It's no bodies fault if we do not grow or if we don't have confidence in our relationship with Jesus. He has given us opportunity to learn and promises to teach us. He tells us to draw near., He won't force us. Being available is our job. Making it our business to read the Bible daily and hear it daily and put it on the doorposts of our house sort of speak in our going and in our coming back.

How many of us can say we do that? And when we finally do DO that and become available to learn, we are going to find out some truths we didn't know before. That is the nature of learning right? finding out things we didn't know before.

 

[ladylynn]

“Because of your new identity in Christ, being yourself and expressing Christ are one and the same. God has arranged it so that our new self and our union with His Spirit cause us to want what He wants.

God has the market cornered on true fulfillment, and He has installed within us an intense and never-ending desire to find fulfillment through expressing His life.

Christ living through you is not a feeling. It’s not an emotional experience that you pursue. Having Christ live through you is really about knowing who you are and being yourself.

Since Christ is your life, your source of true fulfillment, you’ll only be content when you are expressing Him. As you express Him, you also express who God has made you to be.”​

This is really good. And it all ties together with why we will grow. The Spirit changes us from the inside out to be seeking true fulfillment and shows us it only comes through Christ. This is not just for those super duper Christians we read about who go to Africa to be missionaries. This is for all believers even those of us who are not great in the eyes of the world.

Just like this says here in "having Christ live through you is really about knowing who you are and being yourself." He is changing us and expressing Himself through us in our new identity in Him. And how awesome it is that God arranged it so that our new self and our union with His Spirit will cause us to want what HE wants.

God is the One who made us self aware beings. We don't live someone else's life, that is impossible. But in Christ He lives His live out through us and we can begin to see Him in our minds too as He gives us opportunity to see His wisdom. We know the ability to do His will comes from Him and we are in awe at how He used 'us' to do such a thing.

Another reason how we can love the unlovely and do the impossible. And why all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us. That is why when we are weak in ourselves we are strong in Christ. That is how we can lose our life and find it in Him. All those verses begin to tie together as they are coming out in real-time in us.

 

[Grace777x70]

In one sense we are "here" with the Lord and yet we are just starting too...it's a wonderful mystery of our union with the Lord.

One of the beauties of the Lord to me is the verse in Ephesians where it says that in the ages to come God will show the richness of His grace and kindness to toward us in Christ. ( riches in grace sounds like hyper stuff to me...)

He is a loving, good Father and every day is a journey to know Him...and thus it will be so in all the " ages " to come. He is that beautiful and full of love and wonders.


Ephesians 2:4-7 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 9: 6 & 7 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the GOVERNMENT shall be on His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

How many times in the O.T. we see different fonts in the printed text of: God, GOD, Lord, LORD, Almighty
God, Lord of Hosts, Lord of Hosts the GOD of Israel, I could go on, but suffice it to say: THIS, is the government of the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Light, which is on Jesus' shoulder. One may even liken it to a flowering mustard bush, or, even like a cedar of Lebanon, in which Christ is like the trunk, and the boughs and branches, and leaves, are like the GOVERNMENT of......When one grows in the faith, room is needed, so to grow even more. Like when we as young children were growing, a term called "cutting teeth" was (dunno if is still used these days,er not ) used, in these spurts of growth. So it is when one grows spiritually.

So, to some, who come to the Cross of Christ, saying their spiritual journey is finished, that's fine. For some who come to that very same Cross of Christ, THEIR spiritual journey/ies: ARE JUST BEGINNING.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree that there are many "voices" out in the Christian world and we need to rely on the Holy Spirit inside of us to glean what is truth and what isn't.

I use these questions below to gage what I'm hearing is truth or not. Sometimes the "voice" comes with a piece of a puzzle we need to "fill out our knowledge of God".

1) I ask...does this teaching/truth make Jesus bigger in my eyes? ( or does it make me look to myself ? )

2) Does the teaching/truth make me love Jesus deeper and to be in awe of His great finished work for us? ( or do I "help" the Lamb of God with my salvation? )

3) Does it exalt and glorify Jesus only? ( or does it point to me and what I have done? )

The difference between being Christ-focused/conscious and self-focused is that Christ gets all the glory. It's His finished work...not ours!

The more we truly see Jesus and see His beauty - the more we love Him and faith comes as a by-product of hearing Him. This is why some of us proclaim the gospel of the grace of Christ constantly.

The fruit of union with Him brings forth the fruit of His life flowing out of our new creations in Christ....which can be see as good works.

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

This like other threads comes back to peoples definition of salvation. Some are saying believe and God will do the rest, Some are saying if you truly believe you can't be unsaved, others are saying Salvation can be lost, and others beliefs i can't define.
Grace is undeserving pardon so we know we can't earn it or deserve it because than it wouldn't be Grace. So how do we receive GRACE? A gift (praise God) why doesn't He give it to everyone? Comes by Faith.

So if we all agree that grace comes by faith as a free gift, does works, the law, and our ability to lose our faith disappear?

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..that made me laugh....imagine the audacity of actually using scripture in context...the nerve of them...lol

Gosh, LL, you'll give me an ego. (i.e. a bigger one, lol)
I guess there's the secret, ....... just quote scripture. *_*

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!...and well said!

This is the crux of the Christian life....outwardly these " good works " look exactly the same....but one is of the flesh and self effort ( however noble looking ) and the other is by the Spirit within through the new creation in Christ.

We can see this truth beautifully illustrated in the life of Abraham - the father of faith.

Abraham had 2 sons but God only recognized Isaac - the son of promise brought about by God. God does not recognize the flesh and self-effort. Abraham tried to "fulfill" the will and word of God by his own self-effort in the flesh but he created an Ishmael. When we come to the end of "our own self-effort "...this is when the "son of promise " will be birthed in our lives.

Genesis 22:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, .........

So the same good works can be done by 2 totally different Christians and one Christians works will be of wood hay and stubble because it's done in the flesh while the other Christians works will be of gold, silver and precious jewels because they are done by grace through faith. God surly does appreciate when we believe that He does love us. And it is a truth that when we do begin to trust His love for us and in us, it's like rivers of living water flowing out of our bellies.

 

[PeterJens]

Words - It all comes down to words

If you write out the statement of belief that we call theologically correct, which defines what as believers would say is sound and excludes various sects and groups who deny the basic faith, how long is it? One page of A4 maybe.

So someone comes and says the words. But the meanings they have gets slightly lost. Is there a gate which now says you have passed over, yep you know enough, you are in and can never leave now, even if you wanted to.

So words have to mean something in the soul of the believer. What we do know is all of us have our own individual version and insight to this. For some it is completely wrong and others completely down the line 100% brilliant.

Now the faith is a commitment to a walk in righteousness not sin. You may have noticed the signs on the way in.
"I repent of my sins" "I ask Jesus to help me walk in righteousness" "I am loved and accepted to be transformed into His likeness"

Now the clue might be righteousness. No evil or imperfect thing in sin will enter the new Kingdom. That is what you have bought into. So the only question is when and how is this transformation going to happen. It is the only argument in town.

Gnostic view - A pure spirit perfect is given to you at the point of faith
Traditional view - We are washed, reborn and as we walk with Jesus transformed through obedience. It gets better with time.

The gnostics say the traditionalists are evil, lost, under judgement, empty. Hyper grace is gnostic. Only those who have been christians many years, know the culture, have been refined over many years suddenly get this revelation, because they already have very few issues in their lives so it is easy to believe such an idea. The evil they create is this condemnation and judgementalism of others, you are evil for doing good but "carnally"

The real problem is they should have had this new spirit already at point of faith, but they never did, so it is just an invention

 

[PeterJens]

When do you receive the gnostic new spirit? At the point of believing in Jesus. So all christians already have this spirit, so the theology would say. All you have to do is realise who you are and walk in it. But that is the christian walk.
Walking with Jesus is knowing you are a child of the Kingdom, you have the power to overcome sin, Jesus loves you and nothing can separate you from Christ. You are secure in His love.

But the problem is failure and guilt. Why so much continual failure and not meeting the mark? Because we walk in the flesh and not the Spirit. Those who walk in the flesh are not really "saved". Except they are. But they are hypocrites trying to earn their salvation. No. By this theology they are saved with spirits just like you, just walking carnally and can never loose their salvation, so are not hypocrites or the enemy.

So the whole structure fails, because if the enemy are really the legalists, the instant spirit theology does not work.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what the "scriptures " say about the believer having a new heart. to deny we have a new heart and spirit in us is to deny the new creation in Christ. Then we are left with man-made religious works of self-righteous acts but no matter how noble looking..they are filthy rags to the Lord.

The believers new heart in Christ created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )


Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.

Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.

1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

 

[Grace777x70]

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

Doing righteous deeds because Christ has made us righteous is what 1 John chapter 3 is talking about. This shows the difference between the devil and those that belong to Christ. John was describing a believer and an unbeliever.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness comes a reality to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now! This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Notice we are being changed from glory to glory..


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm only using it because you gave believers like me the title HeRose. Telling someone they are perverting the Gospel is actually not a nice thing to say about us on here. I'm not in any way shape or form like a Gnostic. The grace I believe is from reading the Bible and because I know Christ and trust Him to save and keep me.

If I can get some positive use from using your title on this thread and pointing out it's total mis representation of the grace I believe in, that's what I can do. Am not trying to be mean, just trying to show how far out that title is and not what Christians here believe who hold to grace alone through faith alone.

You didn't learn the grace you're espousing from the bible. You're regurgitating what other people have taught you. I'm witnessing that it's not in the bible and it's not grace.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In one sense we are "here" with the Lord and yet we are just starting too...it's a wonderful mystery of our union with the Lord.

Is your union with Christ a union with his spirit, or a union with grace?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree that there are many "voices" out in the Christian world and we need to rely on the Holy Spirit inside of us to glean what is truth and what isn't.

I use these questions below to gage what I'm hearing is truth or not. Sometimes the "voice" comes with a piece of a puzzle we need to "fill out our knowledge of God".

1) I ask...does this teaching/truth make Jesus bigger in my eyes? ( or does it make me look to myself ? )

Grace believers constantly talk about focusing on their identity, which means they're focusing on self, not Christ.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Hyper grace says that once you believe you're set. That there's absolutely noting... nada nil zip zero zilch and squat... that you can do to lose it. And they are right. Absolutely right. Except for one - and only one - thing.

Not exclusive to "hyper grace" at all.

Those on the other side (and we're talking generalities of the groups, acknowledging that all groups have their exceptions) say that once saved, you can sin your way out. That if you don't walk the walk that all your talking the talk is just b.s. That while individual sins do not condemn one, a habitual life of sin will. And that my friends is poppycock (look that up in your Funk and Wagnell's). Make no mistake you will be held accountable for your sin (as thru the fire), but no, no amount of sin will unsave you.

Yep those on the "other side" of grace do believe that.

Sin is the result of bad works. It's expected that with the indwelling of the Spirit you will produce good works. But one can quench the Spirit, one does that with bad works. Quench, not evict.

Bad works are evidence however. If you evidence bad works people have reason to doubt your salvation. But not to declare you unsaved. That's between you and God.

The fly in the ointment - belief is not an act of works. Neither would be unbelief. Belief is the one and only and sole and singular and unique qualifier for salvation. Unbelief is ditto for eternal condemnation. And it IS possible for a believer to stop believing. Otherwise God wouldn't have put so many scriptures into His word saying so.

Hypergrace is 99.999% true.

Works salvation is 100% false.

Perseverance in belief is the fly.

If you're saying that your belief is a work then you are saying that your salvation as 100% false.

 

[FreeNChrist]

When do you receive the gnostic new spirit? At the point of believing in Jesus. So all christians already have this spirit, so the theology would say. All you have to do is realise who you are and walk in it. But that is the christian walk.
Walking with Jesus is knowing you are a child of the Kingdom, you have the power to overcome sin, Jesus loves you and nothing can separate you from Christ. You are secure in His love.

But the problem is failure and guilt. Why so much continual failure and not meeting the mark? Because we walk in the flesh and not the Spirit. Those who walk in the flesh are not really "saved". Except they are. But they are hypocrites trying to earn their salvation. No. By this theology they are saved with spirits just like you, just walking carnally and can never loose their salvation, so are not hypocrites or the enemy.

So the whole structure fails, because if the enemy are really the legalists, the instant spirit theology does not work.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Romans 8:9

 

[FreeNChrist]

Grace believers constantly talk about focusing on their identity, which means they're focusing on self, not Christ.

You missed the "in Christ" part again.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is how God has designed the truth to work in a person's life to effect change by the grace of Christ.

The Holy Spirit "convicts" ( elencho in greek means many things..- to convince is one of the main ones..convict is used once in KJV ) or convinces us that we have believed a lie about something to due with Him. The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus and the things of God to us.

We "repent" ( metanoia - rethink, change our mind ) change my mind in light of this truth and turn towards what the Spirit has shown us.

We "confess" ( homologeo - to speak the same thing , agree with ) or agree with the Spirit of Truth ( no sense of condemnation ) - in other words...speak out what this truth is.

This process renews our mind and allows us to think how God thinks concerning any area of our lives. This process operates in an atmosphere of complete trust between a loving and infinitely wise Father and a willing and trusting child.

We trust the motives of our Father to bless us and never to condemn us - to accept us, and never reject us, to be patient with us and to enlighten us and never lie to us - and to always have our best interests in His heart.

Our love and admiration for Him grows in every encounter and we become more like Him every time we talk to Him because we see Him as in a mirror.

We are confident that He is changing us through changing the way we think until He is fully reflected through and in us. The fruit of His Holy Spirit begins to be produced through our transformed life.

You can call this process greasy grace if you want to, but realize when you do, you are cooperating with the enemy of Christ and calling into question our Lord's finished work.

 

[Grace777x70]

..that seems to be a constant theme....interesting.....are we not joined to the Lord in one Spirit?.....interesting again..are there not over 80 references in Pauls' letters that we are " in Christ"..and what all that means?...

You missed the "in Christ" part again.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You missed the "in Christ" part again.

In Christ means baptized into his body. It doesn't mean being in Christ himself. If your eyes are on yourself (your identity), they are not on Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

..that seems to be a constant theme....interesting.....are we not joined to the Lord in one Spirit?.....interesting again..are there not over 80 references in Pauls' letters that we are " in Christ"..and what all that means?...

We are joined to the lord in one spirit, but Christ is not the holy spirit. So if your eyes are on your self (your identity) they are not on Christ.