The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[JGIG]

JGIG,
Hi. Welcome back.

We don't like the attitude that new.modern.hyper grace believers have that they suddenly have something that we don't. I've walked in the freedom of grace for many years, and can clearly see their error. I've never been in bondage to religious traditions/systems that most of these folks seem to have been, yet they accuse any who disagree with them of being in bondage to the same. They all work from the same toolset of practiced talking points they've learned from books and the internet, and all of their diatribes are framed in such. They never receive correction, always ignore clear proofs of their error, and just continually regurgitate their practiced talking points. It's very obviously behavior that one sees in brainwashed members of cults.

Hi HRFTD =),

I hear you, and there is some of that around.

What I hear most Grace teachers saying though, is not that they have something that you don't, but that they've realized what they've had all along, and that is rest and security in the Work of Christ.

Please post for us the 'diatribes' you're referring to. From ACTUAL Grace preachers. Not from those who tell you what Grace preachers are saying/doing, but straight from the horses' mouths.

As for saying the same over and over - you have some of that too, yes? It's not only the mark of cultish behavior, but also of those who passionately defend what they believe.

Like I wrote above, it is always my intent to point you to Christ, Who He is, What He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who you are in Him. If I'm doing that, what you do with it is your choice; I have been faithful to what I have been called to.

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

Beware of the "straw-man!"

A straw-man approach, or argument, is a tactic often described as a logical fallacy. It is the practice of presenting a simplified and often inaccurate summary of an opponent's views, then attacking that summary and concluding that you have thereby won the argument. The problem with it is that the presenter usually does not accurately represent the opponent's views, so what he is attacking is actually a "straw-man", not the actual thing itself.

In the so called hyper-grace arena.....here is an example of the above "straw-man" technique in action....they do the same with " antinomianism " which is a term the legalists made up.

...people against the grace of our Lord Jesus talked about here will say.."..the hyper-gracers say you don't have to repent and you can do whatever sin you want!" ( this is their straw-man )

Everyone knows that Christians need to change their mind and turn to Jesus....everyone knows that sinning is wrong and will destroy us....which is why Jesus came to save us from. ( This is their attack on the straw-man )

Thus the "straw-man" is killed off and so their original premise shows the validity of their argument. This is not even remotely the truth. In real life no believers in grace says we don't change our way of thinking to line up with God's nor is it ok to sin all you want. It doesn't matter how many times we say that grace is not a licence to sin. It is what some people hear.

What is happening is that people are "hearing" something else other then what is actually being said by believers in the grace of Jesus as outlined in the word of God. Another thing is that it's the definitions of the words that throws people off because a word meaning in their mind is tied to their religious beliefs of the meaning of a word.

 

[JGIG]

Yes Ive read that blog... it's certainly an escape from reality. hyper grace error

Okay, phil36. That's your OPINION. And you are certainly entitled to it.

WHAT do you disagree with?

WHY?

WHAT PROOF, Scripturally, do you draw from to reach your conclusions?

Again, if you're not willing to detail those things here, you're blowing smoke at best or bearing false witness at worst.

Are you passionate enough about what you believe to back it up?

Why or why not?

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Part of teaching the Gospel of Grace is to get folks to recognize when they're holding on to a straw man, a false belief, or just passing along something they heard from someone they tend to agree with.

Let's draw out those false beliefs by asking folks to back up their assertions - with contextual Scripture and actual evidence.

​-JGIG

We do this constantly. It just gets ignored and swept under the rug.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Okay, phil36. That's your OPINION. And you are certainly entitled to it.

WHAT do you disagree with?

WHY?

WHAT PROOF, Scripturally, do you draw from to reach your conclusions?

Again, if you're not willing to detail those things here, you're blowing smoke at best or bearing false witness at worst.

Are you passionate enough about what you believe to back it up?

Why or why not?

-JGIG

One thing I don't like about the man is his ungodly spirit. Like when he compared examining ourselves before taking communion to gazing at our belly button.

 

[phil36]

Hi Jgig

This interesting what you have said :

What I hear most Grace teachers saying though, is not that they have something that you don't, but that they've realized what they've had all along, and that is rest and security in the Work of Christ.

I would say that if they never new they had rest and security in the work of Christ they had not previously understood the gospel. Therefore, used their previous misunderstanding as the strawman to which they argue against for their now 'exagerated grace' gospel. Which actually really is very close to the herasy Antinomianism

 

[JGIG]

You have been reading the threads...I'll post this as it states it better than I ever could.

In addition to this, whole churches and movements have oriented themselves to a distorted understanding of the gospel by espousing a “hypergrace” approach that trickles down to not only what they preach but who they allow to minister and teach. (I was told there is even a new television station devoted to this view of “grace.”)
Furthermore, many churches and preachers refuse to take a stand against sin and rarely if ever mention the need for repentance or topics like hell and judgment. Many of these same churches allow people to minister in music, as small group leaders and even as ministers with no personal accountability while looking the other way when they are living sexually immoral lives and regularly engaged in drunkenness!
This is nothing new. For centuries the body of Christ has wrestled with something called antinomianism (anti means "against"; nomos means "law"). This is the belief that the moral law of the Old Testament has been done away with and that, once we are in Christ, there is free grace in which we can almost live any way we want since we are not under the Law but under grace. Thus, according to this view, the Old Testament is not that important to read except for metaphors, types and symbols regarding the coming of Christ. The New Testament is all about grace and does away with the Old Testament Law!
Of course, Paul the apostle warned against this sort of thing in Romans 6:1-2 when he rhetorically asked, Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? His response: God forbid! How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer in it?

Take from http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/40060-eight-signs-of-hyper-grace-churches (and Im not even a charismatic.

Here's the link for those who would like to read the entire article AND the over 200 comments: 8 Signs of 'Hypergrace' Churches — Charisma News

I've read most of the articles that Charisma has put out on 'Hyper-Grace' and have commented on several, even interacting with Dr. Michael Brown on occasion.

What you posted is not error that you claim exists from an actual Grace preacher. You've posted OPINION and CONJECTURE from a preacher who is against the Grace message.

You have made some assertions about Grace preachers and what they teach.

Give us actual EVIDENCE for those assertions, not just what someone who disagrees with them says about them.

Thanks.

-JGIG

 

[phil36]

We do this constantly. It just gets ignored and swept under the rug.

If it doesnt fit the hyper grace errors then to them your telling lies. Even though they teach contrary to what scripture has always taught..that is All scripture, and what true believers have always believed.

 

[phil36]

Okay, phil36. That's your OPINION. And you are certainly entitled to it.

WHAT do you disagree with?

WHY?

WHAT PROOF, Scripturally, do you draw from to reach your conclusions?

Again, if you're not willing to detail those things here, you're blowing smoke at best or bearing false witness at worst.

Are you passionate enough about what you believe to back it up?

Why or why not?

-JGIG

Just go back and read my answer to your last question, which infact is basiclly the same as this one.. use your brain and read.. I read all the links etc given by others thats how we learn (or not).

Secondly, the whole weight of scripture is against the exagerated grac/hyper grace theology as is the whole of Christian history... the closest to your view in history where the heretics..Antinomians.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please post for us the 'diatribes' you're referring to. From ACTUAL Grace preachers. Not from those who tell you what Grace preachers are saying/doing, but straight from the horses' mouths.

As for saying the same over and over - you have some of that too, yes? It's not only the mark of cultish behavior, but also of those who passionately defend what they believe.

Like I wrote above, it is always my intent to point you to Christ, Who He is, What He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who you are in Him. If I'm doing that, what you do with it is your choice; I have been faithful to what I have been called to.

-JGIG

Actually diatribe was the wrong word. Arguments is what I meant, but there's another word that I prefer that I can't put my finger on.

The only reason I repeat over and over is because they constantly post things over and over. This is exactly like when another person was here who constantly posted all-of-GODs-words-need-to-be-obeyed threads. Once he left all of the controversy ceased. One person here is now responsible for doing the same thing. So how can you reasonably expect me and others to not respond to the constant barrage of new.modern.hyper grace proselytizing?

 

[JGIG]

We do this constantly. It just gets ignored and swept under the rug.

Begging your pardon, HRFTD, but the OP was based in what Irenaeus had to say and then you attaching a label of Gnosticism to the Gospel of Grace.

You didn't go to Scripture as your 'go to' place to correct what you see as error.

-JGIG

 

[phil36]

Here's the link for those who would like to read the entire article AND the over 200 comments: 8 Signs of 'Hypergrace' Churches — Charisma News

I've read most of the articles that Charisma has put out on 'Hyper-Grace' and have commented on several, even interacting with Dr. Michael Brown on occasion.

What you posted is not error that you claim exists from an actual Grace preacher. You've posted OPINION and CONJECTURE from a preacher who is against the Grace message.

You have made some assertions about Grace preachers and what they teach.

Give us actual EVIDENCE for those assertions, not just what someone who disagrees with them says about them.

Thanks.

-JGIG

You reply backs up my assertion regarding critique.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Here's the link for those who would like to read the entire article AND the over 200 comments: 8 Signs of 'Hypergrace' Churches — Charisma News

I've read most of the articles that Charisma has put out on 'Hyper-Grace' and have commented on several, even interacting with Dr. Michael Brown on occasion.

What you posted is not error that you claim exists from an actual Grace preacher. You've posted OPINION and CONJECTURE from a preacher who is against the Grace message.

You have made some assertions about Grace preachers and what they teach.

Give us actual EVIDENCE for those assertions, not just what someone who disagrees with them says about them.

Thanks.

-JGIG

Seems that twisted message didn't go over too well with the readers. Encouraging.

 

[Grace777x70]

See...there is your "straw-man" in action..

.grace believers teach contrary to what ALL scripture has taught..what you really mean in real life is..it is contrary to YOUR understanding is of the scriptures and what you have been taught to believe......and it "confronts" your beliefs....and we all understand that and have gone through that ourselves in some degree or other..

If it doesnt fit the hyper grace errors then to them your telling lies. Even though they teach contrary to what scripture has always taught..that is All scripture, and what true believers have always believed.

 

[JGIG]

Just go back and read my answer to your last question, which infact is basiclly the same as this one.. use your brain and read.. I read all the links etc given by others thats how we learn (or not).

Secondly, the whole weight of scripture is against the exagerated grac/hyper grace theology as is the whole of Christian history... the closest to your view in history where the heretics..Antinomians.

Because you say so, right?

Not enough, phil.

You're going to have to do better, or you're nothing more than a demagogue (one who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument).

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I would say that if they never new they had rest and security in the work of Christ they had not previously understood the gospel. Therefore, used their previous misunderstanding as the strawman to which they argue against for their now 'exagerated grace' gospel. Which actually really is very close to the herasy Antinomianism

Perfect description.

 

[phil36]

See...there is your "straw-man" in action..

.grace believers teach contrary to what ALL scripture has taught..what you really mean in real life is..it is contrary to YOUR understanding is of the scriptures and what you have been taught to believe......and it "confronts" your beliefs....and we all understand that and have gone through that ourselves in some degree or other..

Well we have to straighten something out...we all believe in grace.. you guys just exagerate at the expnse of all other teaching... And I can still say its all grace

The scriptures you guys put forward, are new reworkings that no one except the antinomians would have supported. However, It is a little bit dissapointing, you know I think you believe a lot the same as I do... and You know when I say all scripture you knwo I am refering to this topic... now you already know that as I have said it quite a few times.

MMmmm So I wonder who is making the strawman?

 

[JGIG]

Actually diatribe was the wrong word. Arguments is what I meant, but there's another word that I prefer that I can't put my finger on.

The only reason I repeat over and over is because they constantly post things over and over. This is exactly like when another person was here who constantly posted all-of-GODs-words-need-to-be-obeyed threads. Once he left all of the controversy ceased. One person here is now responsible for doing the same thing. So how can you reasonably expect me and others to not respond to the constant barrage of new.modern.hyper grace proselytizing?

It's being confronted with those 'all-of-GODs-words-need-to-be-obeyed' folks that brought me to a fuller understanding of Grace . If you were to go back through (which would be time-prohibitive, but just making the point) my posts as I interacted with those folks, you will see that I was preaching the Gospel of Grace - and you liked many of those posts!

When confronted by flat-out legalism, Grace becomes very clear.

So much of the Body of Christ is still in a mixture of Grace and Law and have a hard time seeing it - Grace is good, BUT. I must, I should, if I don't . . . all things that add to what Christ accomplished and who we are in Him.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Begging your pardon, HRFTD, but the OP was based in what Irenaeus had to say and then you attaching a label of Gnosticism to the Gospel of Grace.

You didn't go to Scripture as your 'go to' place to correct what you see as error.

-JGIG

I'm a discerner of spirits. I can can compare what Irenaeus said about the gnostics of his day with what these people today say and clearly see that they are operating from the same spirit. New.modern.hyper grace believers don't like that because it's outside of their practiced talking points that are all based on twisted scripture. So they simply ignore the obvious and move on to the next regurgitation.

 

[JGIG]

One thing I don't like about the man is his ungodly spirit. Like when he compared examining ourselves before taking communion to gazing at our belly button.

What man?

Who are you referring to? Which of their teachings?

I've heard the 'belly-button gazing' or 'navel-gazing' bit from one or two teachers - it's a way to refer to constant self-examination rather than on keeping our eyes fixed on Christ. There are lots of Grace teachers who say it a bit differently, but the point is that they are pointing you to Christ.

-JGIG