The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

JGIG said:

Hi jgig,

If you do not wish to believe what scriture and that is all of scripture teaches regarding the topic and what true believers have always believed then that is upto you..
My true deisre is that we all live by the truth that has been throughout all of redemptive history.

You are free to make up what you want.

Grace777x70 · Jan 17, 2016

This was your "straw-man".below...but I know you will keep going around in a circle..so...I'll let it lie....and just say..okie dokie....

Even though they teach contrary to what scripture has always taught..that is All scripture, and what true believers have always believed

phil36 said:

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 17, 2016

JGIG said:

I've always liked what you wrote... until now. Something has changed, or you were simply flying under the radar then. Frankly, I didn't realize new.modern.hyper grace was something to be concerned about until recently. So maybe I didn't pick up the subtle signals then that I am well versed in now.

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

I remember grace 777x70 using Matin LLoyd-Jones in a couple of posts..that is good

here is more from Martyn:

But that’s not all Lloyd-Jones said about law and grace, because Romans 6:1 wasn’t the only thing he ever preached on. In his Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, Lloyd-Jones sounded a different–though entirely biblical and entirely complementary–note:

Is it not true to say of many of us that in actual practice our view of the doctrine of grace is such that we scarcely ever take the plain teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ seriously? We have so emphasized the teaching that all is of grace and that we ought not to try to imitate His example in order to make ourselves Christians, that we are virtually in the position of ignoring His teaching altogether and of saying that it has nothing to do with us because we are under grace. Now I wonder how seriously we take the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The best way of concentrating on the question is, I think, to face the Sermon on the Mount. (p. 12)

Later, he goes even further in emphasizing the importance of the law in the Christian life.

The Christian is a man who of necessity must be concerned about keeping God’s law. I mentioned in chapter one the fatal tendency to put up law and grace as antitheses in the wrong sense. We are not ‘under the law’ but we are still meant to keep it. . . .So the Christian is a man who is always concerned about living and keeping the law of God. Here [in the Sermon on the Mount] he is reminded how that is to be done. (p. 26)

The mature Christian will say “Amen”

taken from Lloyd-Jones on Scandalous Grace that Isn’t Cheap | TGC

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

phil36 said:

More assertions with NO PROOF.

Demagogue: One who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

-JGIG

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jan 17, 2016

JGIG said:

Paul Ellis. I don't know if it's his originally. They're all a bunch of copycats.

It's ungodly and irreverent, JGIG.

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

JGIG said:

more grace

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

I remember grace 777x70 using Matin LLoyd-Jones in a couple of posts..that is good

here is more from Martyn:

But that’s not all Lloyd-Jones said about law and grace, because Romans 6:1 wasn’t the only thing he ever preached on. In his Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, Lloyd-Jones sounded a different–though entirely biblical and entirely complementary–note:

Is it not true to say of many of us that in actual practice our view of the doctrine of grace is such that we scarcely ever take the plain teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ seriously? We have so emphasized the teaching that all is of grace and that we ought not to try to imitate His example in order to make ourselves Christians, that we are virtually in the position of ignoring His teaching altogether and of saying that it has nothing to do with us because we are under grace. Now I wonder how seriously we take the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The best way of concentrating on the question is, I think, to face the Sermon on the Mount. (p. 12)

Later, he goes even further in emphasizing the importance of the law in the Christian life.

The Christian is a man who of necessity must be concerned about keeping God’s law. I mentioned in chapter one the fatal tendency to put up law and grace as antitheses in the wrong sense. We are not ‘under the law’ but we are still meant to keep it. . . .So the Christian is a man who is always concerned about living and keeping the law of God. Here [in the Sermon on the Mount] he is reminded how that is to be done. (p. 26)

The mature Christian will say “Amen”

taken from Lloyd-Jones on Scandalous Grace that Isn’t Cheap | TGC

Grandpa · Jan 17, 2016

Can Grace ever be exagerated enough?

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 Corinthians 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Someday we will see that we should have exagerated Grace even more than we did. If we could have just understood it better to begin with.

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

With all due respect, you have not proven any of that. You've taken a label and attached it to the Gospel of Grace based on what you've heard others say about what Grace preachers teach.

I don't have 'practiced talking points'. I go to Scripture to relay what I believe. You've seen me do it time and again. And have agreed with me many times. I'm asking you to take a fresh look at what Grace teachers ACTUALLY teach, and evaluate from there.

-JGIG

Willie-T · Jan 17, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

My wife keeps telling me..... "Just as it happened with you, Bill, you are not going to get through to anyone until they get tired of blindly running full speed ahead and ramming their heads into the stone walls of their desperate devotion to traditions they have accepted and live by. One day they may tire of that, and sit and listen to Jesus, and maybe even to you."

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

phil36 said:

Um, phil, you haven't posted any Scripture. That's kind of my point.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

My stance has not changed - I have been absolutely consistent and up front with what I believe, and folks have always been able to go to my site to check out what I believe and write about.

Maybe the Holy Spirit is putting this in front of you to examine according to the Scriptures, rather than dismiss based on others' evaluations.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

phil36 said:

Grace doesn't not see what is there, phil. Or in your case, what is not there

.

-JGIG

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Most denominations are copycats - on most of the core issues of the Gospel, they agree. Are they also copycats?

There's a lot of unity in the Grace movement, even in the midst of some disagreement over secondary issues, which I think is to their credit.

It's your opinion, and if you find that phraseology distasteful, that's fine. Be careful to not pass judgement on an entire group of teachers because of it, though.

-JGIG

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

JGIG said:

Well I cn assume you ahve read through the posts as you managed to pick one of mine out..nevermind..ill post again. And yes I have read the thread on 1 john, and I must say very lacking.. anyhow: there is plenty here for you to think about.
this the real issue at hand..

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. —1 John 1:9
That is one of the first verses many new Christians memorize — and rightly so. It holds forth the comforting promise of forgiveness and cleansing for all of us who have struggled with guilt in this sin-stained world. Yet there are some today who, because they fail to comprehend the extent of divine forgiveness, deny the clear teaching of 1 John 1:9 and teach other to do the same. They say that to pray for forgiveness reveals unbelief. After all, a healthy Christian doesn't experience guilt because he understands Christ's total forgiveness. Why seek forgiveness when you already have it?
However, their guilt-free brand of Christianity not only burdens guilty people with more guilt, but also strips away the only means to alleviate the guilt of sin-confession. Rather than helping Christians draw near to God, they are reinforcing the barrier of sin that interrupts their relationship with God. But that's not the end of the story.
The Bible clearly teaches that Christians should seek forgiveness. Consider this:
- In each one of the penitential psalms (Ps. 6; 32; 38; 51; 102; 130; 143), the psalmist is demonstrating the heart of a justified believer when he seeks forgiveness. In each case the psalmist is already a believer, fully forgiven.
- In the gospels, Christ taught believers to ask the Father to forgive their sins (Matt. 6:12; Mark 11:25; Luke 11:4). Some of those to whom He spoke were already born again. In 1 John 1, the verb tenses show that confession and forgiveness should be a continuous experience. Verse 7 literally reads, "The blood of Jesus His Son keeps cleansing us from all sin," and verse 9 likewise says, "If we are continually confessing our sins." Those to whom John wrote were already fully forgiven believers (cf. 5:13).
But the question remains: Why are you supposed to seek God's forgiveness if He has already justified you? If justification takes care of sin past, present, and future, so there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom. 8:1), why pray for forgiveness? Aren't you praying for something that is already yours?
The answer is that divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It's the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ's atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete — you'll never need to seek it again.
The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).
Let me show you the difference:
- Judicial forgiveness deals with sin's penalty — parental forgiveness deals with sin's consequences.
- Judicial forgiveness frees us from the condemnation of the righteous, omniscient Judge whom we have wronged — parental forgiveness sets things right with a grieving and displeased but loving Father.
- Judicial forgiveness provides an unshakeable standing before the throne of divine judgment — parental forgiveness deals with the state of our sanctification at any given moment and is dispensed from a throne of divine grace. So the forgiveness Christians are supposed to seek in their daily walk is not pardon from an angry Judge, but mercy from a grieved Father.
Some object to the idea that God could ever be displeased with His own children. They ask: Can our once-and-for-all forgiven sins ever provoke divine displeasure? The answer is a resounding "Yes." In fact, it is because of God's righteous displeasure over your sin that He refuses to leave you the way you are — sinful.
In a very practical sense, God's indignation over your daily sins demonstrates His love for you. That's the thought of Hebrews 12:5-11where some form of the word discipline is used seven times. Divine displeasure over your sin brings discipline, reproof, and scourging. That's a good thing, not only because it helps rid your life of sin, but it also shows His love for you and confirms your relationship to Him — "those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives" (v. 6).
God's discipline — sometimes involving punishment for disobedience — is painful; no one will argue with that. But you must remember: He is causing you to share in His holiness (v. 10); He is training you (v. 11); He is producing in you the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" (v. 11). So when you have sinned, humble yourself, confess your sin, and submit to His loving discipline.
Remorse over sin, daily confession, and a continual attitude of repentance are marks of a healthy Christian life. What's the benefit? Look again at 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (italics added). Forgiveness and cleansing — those promises are as refreshing to the sinner as a cold drink of water to a thirsty man.
David testified to the power of confession in Psalm 32: "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer…I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my sin to the Lord"; and You forgave the guilt of my sin" (vv. 4-5). The guilt of David's sin affected him physically — he found relief only through full confession.
We've already discussed the difference between judicial and parental forgiveness — the latter is in view in 1 John 1:9. It is a subjective, relational kind of forgiveness. It is the restoration to a place of blessing in the eyes of a displeased father. Similarly, the cleansing of 1 John 1:9 doesn't refer to regeneration. Rather, it is a spiritual washing to rid you of the defilement caused by sin in your daily walk. The verse is speaking of an ongoing pardon and purification from sin, not the cleansing and forgiveness of salvation.
The pardon of justification and the washing of regeneration do not eliminate the need for you to deal with the subjective reality of sin in your life. If you entertain such an idea, you will either be consumed by your guilt or you will steel yourself against the pangs of your conscience — either reaction will separate you from a loving Father.
Instead, keep confessing your sins; seek God's forgiveness and cleansing daily. As the verse says, He is faithful to Himself to forgive your sins and He is just, having already made full atonement for your sins through the sacrifice of His beloved Son. When you confess your sins, you are restored by a loving Father who delights to shower the brokenhearted and repentant with His mercy and compassion.
Adapted from The Freedom and Power of Forgiveness, © 1998 by John MacArthur

Grandpa · Jan 17, 2016

It can't be all about His Grace.

Our works have to be in there somewhere.

They have to be.

Right?

Philippians 3:3-9
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

"We" believe "all" of scripture. Do we?

phil36 · Jan 17, 2016

Ill repost LLoyd Jones while you read the last post for some true scriptural teaching.

I remember grace 777x70 using Matin LLoyd-Jones in a couple of posts..that is good

here is more from Martyn:

But that’s not all Lloyd-Jones said about law and grace, because Romans 6:1 wasn’t the only thing he ever preached on. In his Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, Lloyd-Jones sounded a different–though entirely biblical and entirely complementary–note:

Is it not true to say of many of us that in actual practice our view of the doctrine of grace is such that we scarcely ever take the plain teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ seriously? We have so emphasized the teaching that all is of grace and that we ought not to try to imitate His example in order to make ourselves Christians, that we are virtually in the position of ignoring His teaching altogether and of saying that it has nothing to do with us because we are under grace. Now I wonder how seriously we take the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The best way of concentrating on the question is, I think, to face the Sermon on the Mount. (p. 12)

Later, he goes even further in emphasizing the importance of the law in the Christian life.

The Christian is a man who of necessity must be concerned about keeping God’s law. I mentioned in chapter one the fatal tendency to put up law and grace as antitheses in the wrong sense. We are not ‘under the law’ but we are still meant to keep it. . . .So the Christian is a man who is always concerned about living and keeping the law of God. Here [in the Sermon on the Mount] he is reminded how that is to be done. (p. 26)

The mature Christian will say “Amen”

taken from Lloyd-Jones on Scandalous Grace that Isn’t Cheap | TGC

Grace777x70 · Jan 17, 2016

We agree with Jesus words as they pertain to us in the New Covenant...and that would be ....Myth 8: Hyper-Grace Preachers Disregard the Words of Jesus

Here is the link below to see what is "really " being said..

Myth 8: Hyper-Grace Preachers Disregard the Words of Jesus – Escape to Reality

phil36 said:

JGIG · Jan 17, 2016

phil36 said:

I remember grace 777x70 using Matin LLoyd-Jones in a couple of posts..that is good

here is more from Martyn:

But that’s not all Lloyd-Jones said about law and grace, because Romans 6:1 wasn’t the only thing he ever preached on. In his Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, Lloyd-Jones sounded a different–though entirely biblical and entirely complementary–note:

Is it not true to say of many of us that in actual practice our view of the doctrine of grace is such that we scarcely ever take the plain teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ seriously? We have so emphasized the teaching that all is of grace and that we ought not to try to imitate His example in order to make ourselves Christians, that we are virtually in the position of ignoring His teaching altogether and of saying that it has nothing to do with us because we are under grace. Now I wonder how seriously we take the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The best way of concentrating on the question is, I think, to face the Sermon on the Mount. (p. 12)

Later, he goes even further in emphasizing the importance of the law in the Christian life.

The Christian is a man who of necessity must be concerned about keeping God’s law. I mentioned in chapter one the fatal tendency to put up law and grace as antitheses in the wrong sense. We are not ‘under the law’ but we are still meant to keep it. . . .So the Christian is a man who is always concerned about living and keeping the law of God. Here [in the Sermon on the Mount] he is reminded how that is to be done. (p. 26)

The mature Christian will say “Amen”

taken from Lloyd-Jones on Scandalous Grace that Isn’t Cheap | TGC

And this is something written by someone about something written by someone else. With quotes from the MLJ source taken out of context.

You do have a Bible, don't you, phil?

Do you read it for yourself?

-JGIG

The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

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