The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
.LOL. New.modern.hyper grace teachers sure need a lot of words to cast their spell.
Let's recap. If we write long posts we're criticized for writing long posts. If we write short posts we're critiqued for writing short posts. If we post scripture we are criticized for posting scripture and not our own words. If we post our own words we are criticized for not quoting scripture. :rolleyes:

Ya'll are a trip.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,774
29,149
113
No, that's not his point. Believe me. It is a contradiction of what he has said just in this one thread. That you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And yes, I'm done with your attempts to discredit me personally.
Discredit you? You have done that all by yourself, asking me to not be subtle because you are a dense man and subtlety escapes you, yet at another time, when I ask for some evidence to support what you say, you refuse to give it and slam me instead. If you have no proof, you could simply say so. But that would be akin to admitting defeat in your eyes, wouldn't it? Or admitting that you were wrong. And we mustn't have that. No, we will have none of that here. You are too busy trying to discredit others.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
[video=youtube;z2Sa8p5Tr1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Sa8p5Tr1Y[/video]

Let's recap. If we write long posts we're criticized for writing long posts. If we write short posts we're critiqued for writing short posts. If we post scripture we are criticized for posting scripture and not our own words. If we post our own words we are criticized for not quoting scripture. :rolleyes:

Ya'll are a trip.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place

Pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics
) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. (
just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we ( believers )
walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if they..the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.

Verse 10 is not a repeat from verse 8...........

Verse 8 is in the present tense, and verse 10 is in the past tense...........
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,950
958
113
44
If you don't accept that John is refuting an opponent in first John, you will never understand first John.
Please don't tell me what I ever will or will not understand. Why don't you stay in the kitchen and make your case with the WORD instead of worrying about what I do and don't understand trying to change the focus.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113
LOL. At the beginning of this, way back when, he wouldn't even admit it had anything at all to do with Gnosticism. It is progress that he is now at least recognizing that. But he still has a ways to go.
Magenta, just to put things into perspective, he is referring to a time when he tried to trip me up with the deceitful way he phrases things, and then he got frustrated when I figured out what he was doing. He's doing the same thing in this thread.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Please don't tell me what I ever will or will not understand. Why don't you stay in the kitchen and make your case with the WORD instead of worrying about what I do and don't understand trying to change the focus.
Deflecting is always a tactic used when a person can no longer defend their stance !!!
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
692
113

Let's get practical about some things:
  • For HRFTD's OP and assertion that John could have only been writing to believers in 1 John 1, he would have to know without a doubt that the recipient's of John's letter were ALL believers. Every. Single. One.

    Not being a personal witness of the time, that's simply not possible, so HRFTD cannot be considered to be an authoritative on that point.
This is ridiculous. Letters were sent to churches of believers. Whether there were unbelievers there or not is irrelevant. There is no evidence that John addressed unbelievers specifically. Red herring.

  • John knew this - and wrote his letter accordingly.

    That's why soooo many scholars (see posts 1143-47) say that John was defending the faith against Gnosticism.

    Could there have been Gnostics in the congregations to whom John was writing? Absolutely!

    And John knew that, and wrote accordingly, using the polite, 'we', because, while Gnostics were not part of the local Body [of Christ], they were part of the local congregation, and were influencing the Body because they were in the congregation.
Pure assumption. You have no evidence for this. It's simply something that new.modern.grace believers are desperate to believe, because their whole doctrine falls apart without it.

Practical? No. Desperate? Yes.
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,774
29,149
113
Very first post (not OP) made in Obsession with confession(1st John 1:9,sin confession) thread:

The teaching that 1 John 1:9 only applies to unbelievers is ridiculous and the work of satan.
Subsequent post by HeRose, still on page one:

No, the ones who say 1 John 1:9 is meant only for unbelievers have to prove that claim.
Looks consistent to me.

That all sounds so very "accusing."

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10
I have gone to page seven of that thread and re-examined every post that HeRose made and see nothing suggesting what you say, FreeNChrist. It is more clearly stated on page eight, though:

This is why that whole argument falls flat on its face. John was addressing believers about the error of gnostic beliefs in 1 John 1, and he used the pronoun 'We' consistently to this effect. There is absolutely no reason to think that John would identify himself with the gnostics by writing 'We', or that he would write a letter to gnostic unbelievers at all.

The only reason this idea even exists is because it's the only way that new.modern.hyper grace teachers can make their lies sound convincing to gullible people so that they can peddle their wares (books, conference appearances, etc.). It's simply a desperate attempt to twist scripture. Too bad some foolish people fall for it.
 

kohelet

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2012
349
228
43
Perhaps you missed my first paragraph in my post to you:
Originally Posted by JGIG

I've experienced legalism, and I've seen the control that those in leadership in such congregations wield as they mis-use Scripture. If you have not, then that's great! But Rob is addressing the folks out there who really do behave that way. If he's not describing you, then no worries!

You go on to say this:
Let me say again that I endorse what he goes on to say in the rest of the chapter. And he provides examples of people who are lost today having experienced legalism in the past. I know of cases where this has happened, too. Anyway, let me quote those three paragraphs.

. . . indicating that you acknowledge that there are situations out there like he's describing.

That you are projecting his more harsh words on yourself is not Rob's fault - that is your choice. Was Jesus talking about you when he called some folks a 'brood of vipers'? No? And you go on to read what He's saying - in the context of who He was talking about, without taking personal offense, right? Likewise, if Rob is not talking about you, and apparently that is the case, why count his appropriate harshness (Jesus was harsh when it came to the Pharisees and self-righteous, yes?) against him?

Accurately describing those who do wield religion as a tool of manipulation and control is not a lack of grace, it's discernment.

“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
(from James 4)

-JGIG


Come on, JGIG. You haven't read the book, for starters, so can't conclude what I'm agreeing to (other than the one point I mentioned), the "projecting" idea is a furphy and what the guy says in his introduction is anything but "gracious, seasoned with salt". And (dare I say it?), if he were discerning he wouldn't be holding this view.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
0
1 John 1:9 – Something Old, Something New

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” What’s the problem with 1 John 1:9?

The problem is that it’s in the wrong part of the Bible. It’s a classic piece of old covenant theology that somehow found its way into the new. It’s on the wrong side of the cross (see Figure). Like snow in Hawaii or Nazis on the moon, it just shouldn’t be there…


But it is there in black and white and you’re just going to have to deal with it. So how do we read 1 John 1:9 in light of the finished work of the cross? The usual way is to read it as a tiny price tag attached to the priceless gift of grace.

“If you just do this tiny thing (acknowledge your sins), a gracious and good God will do this mighty thing (forgive your sins).”

Don’t you realize how obscene this is? If I gave you a mansion with no strings attached and you responded with, “Let me pay you with a piece of navel fluff – there, now we’re square,” I would be insulted.

If you then went around telling others, “Give Paul your navel lint and he will give you mansions!” I would do a face-palm. And then I would have to bolt my door to the hoards queuing outside with handfuls of fluff! It is ridiculous to think that you can pay God to forgive you. And yet many Christians are examining their navels for unconfessed sins because they think God is a sin-collector who trades favors for sin. Big sigh.

The Creator is not some marionette you can manipulate. He is the Almighty One, the Ancient of Days who sits enthroned on high. And He dealt with your sins once and for all at the cross (see Hebrews 9-10). So what is the right way to read 1 John 1:9?

The only right and proper way to read the written word is in light of the Living Word (that’s Jesus) and what He has done (meaning, the cross).
Read the Bible indiscriminately and you’ll end up taking someone else’s medicine.

You’ll be confused about everything and you’ll end up staring at your navel. John is not preaching conditional forgiveness. He says as much in the next few verses. We are not forgiven on account of our works of confession but on “account of His name” (2:12). Only those who receive the gift of forgiveness get to call themselves “forgiven,” but the gift has been given already.

On the cross the Lamb of God did away with the sins of the world (2:2). So what’s all this business about confessing in 1 John 1:9? Why does John sound like he is quoting the Old Testament? Because he is quoting the Old Testament! John is paraphrasing an Old Testament scripture to illuminate a New Testament concept. Look at these two passages side by side and see if they resemble one another see if they resemble one another:




John is not preaching an old law (confess to be forgiven); he is using old and familiar language to describe something that would have been new and strange to his readers. In this regard he is just like Paul who quotes the exact same Psalm in Romans 4:7-8.

Paul quotes Psalm 32 to show that we are blessed through faith and not works; John quotes Psalm 32 to show that we won’t be blessed except through faith. For that is what the word “confess” actually means in Greek.

It does not mean review your sins. It means to agree with or say the same thing as another. Since faith is a positive response to something God has said or done, confession with the mouth is the articulation of faith in the heart.

Gifts are for those who want them

This makes perfect sense when you read the 1 John 1:9 in context. In chapter 1 John was addressing some unsaved dudes who thought they were sinless. In other words, they had a terminal case of self-righteousness. (I know it’s hard to swallow the idea that the Bible was written for non-Christians as well as Christians but it was. The good news is for everyone.)

John doesn’t mince his words. He says these guys had no fellowship with God, they walked in darkness, and the truth was not in them. He was not describing Christians or the “dear children” of chapter 2. If you are self-righteous, then you won’t see your need for the gift of His righteousness.

If you think you are without sin, then you won’t see your need for the gift of His forgiveness. John writes to say, “That’s dumb – stop calling God a liar, agree with Him about your sorry sinful state, and receive His gift of forgiveness. Only those in Christ are truly sinless. Only those who trust in His grace receive the already-given gift of forgiveness.”




There is nothing wrong with 1 John 1:9. It is pure, unadulterated good news. Any problems that arise in connection with this verse stem from confusion about what makes the new covenant new. On the cross the Lamb of God carried the sins of the world. That’s what forgiveness is – it is sending your sins away.

Now they are gone as far as the east is from the west. To recap, the wrong way to read 1 John 1:9 is to think that God will forgive only those sins you for which you own up and accept responsibility. (This is nightmare theology!) The right way is to agree that the cross is the once and for time solution to all your sin.

You have been eternally forgiven through the blood of the Lamb. Forgiveness is one of the greatest treasures ever given to humanity.

Don’t insult the Giver by trying to pay for His incredible gift; just say “Thank you Jesus.” _
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
Then please show where HeRose said that 1 John 1 was addressing gnostics themselves as opposed to addressing believers about gnostics and gnostic beliefs. Thank you.

I will attempt to clarify for you the positions:

Those who teach what has been labeled, 'Hyper-Grace', teach that 1 John 1 is written to correct errors that had crept into the local Body that John was writing to. Gnosticism was corrupting the Gospel in these key ways:



  • Gnostics did not believe that Jesus was God incarnate/God in the flesh/a physical being - John was correcting this view in vs. 1-4.


  • Gnostics believed that what they did in the physical body (their walk) did not matter as long as their spirit believed what they perceived to be the right things. John corrects this thinking in vs. 5-8.


  • Since Gnostics did not believe that what they did in their physical body was sin, they had no reason to confess their sins or ask for forgiveness. John preaches the Gospel in vs. 9, telling them, and reminding the believers who were reading the letter, that when we come to Christ, recognizing and confessing (agreeing with God about) our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.


  • Vs. 10 reiterates vs. 5-8, which reinforces vs. 9.


As John does this, he is addressing both the Gnostics who are attendees in the congregation, and believers, who have been influenced by the Gnostics in their midst.

Then, as if to say, "Now that we got THAT out of the way . . . ", John continues on, having clarified the Gospel, to address everyone as if they have accepted what he's had to say, starting in 1 Jn. 2 with 'My little children . . . '

________________________________

What HRFTD is asserting in his OP is that 1 John 1 is written ONLY to believers, exhorting them to a holier walk and teaching that repeated confession and repentance are necessary for forgiveness for sins they commit AS believers.
________________________________

I and many others believe that the Gospel is complete; that all sin was dealt with at the Cross - once one comes into Christ, they are a forgiven person - they never need to ask for forgiveness for sins from God - forgiveness was a completely cleansing gift given when they received Christ. Necessarily complete, for the gift of New Life (His Spirit) could not be deposited into a defiled vessel. Likewise, if future sins were unforgiven, we would be defiled and God would have to withdraw His Spirit (Life) from us. The wages of sin is death, not 'loss of fellowship'.

Scripture indicates that "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us." and, "When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." (from Eph. 1)

Scripture further indicates that in Christ, God is not holding our sins against us (2 Cor. 5:18-19), and in the New Covenant, God tells us that He chooses to remember our sins no more (Is. 43:25, Jer. 31:34, Heb. 8:12).

Confession is still a healthy part of the Christian walk, but it is not required to receive forgiveness for future sins - that would require for more blood to be shed and the Work of Christ is a Finished, Complete, Work. To say that the Blood of Christ was not enough is to require that He go back up on a cross and put Him to open shame.
________________________________

HRFTD has taken the above and taken it to mean that we think that behavior doesn't matter. That no matter what we do in the flesh (sin), it doesn't matter. From that false belief about what he thinks we believe he tries to make a connection that we believe what Gnostics believe (see the second bullet point above), and has attempted to label the 'Hyper-Grace' teaching as Gnosticism.

HRFTD and others assume that because we believe that Christ's Work was for all of our sins for all time, that we think we can just go out and sin as much as we want.

That is not true for at least four reasons:


  1. We are New Creations
  2. We don't want to sin, we love God, and sinning is contrary to who we are in Christ
  3. Sin is dumb and destructive, doing harm to us and those around us and makes us miserable, not to mention the earthly consequences
  4. Sin produces no good fruit


What this boils down to is the question: Is repeated confession, repentance and forgiveness necessary to maintain one's salvation (or those who say they hold to an Eternal Security position, to maintain one's 'fellowship' with God - even though the wages of sin is DEATH, not loss of fellowship), or when we come into Christ, are we a completely forgiven person, forever?

Hope that helps you to sort this very, very long thread out a bit :).

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
Way back when? How long have you been here? Your join date on the account you are using now says you joined last August, less than six months ago. Is that "way back when" to you? Or are you referring to some other time, under some other account name before I was here, since I joined in July of last year?
This thread has over 1200 posts . . . 'way back when' refers to the early parts of the thread.

Lighten up, Magenta :).

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
Still sounds like a BUNCH of assumption without any clear evidence, and doesn't at all refute the fact he was writing to believers, you have to completely read into, warp the text, or assume way too much to make it mean anything else, and I'm just saying it's a very weak position to say this was just to the unbelievers, even if *gasp* there were unbelievers present. Even if they were there why would he only be talking to the few of them while addressing the many? A completely illogical assertion no matter how big a wrench it throws into you case.

And the biggest thing is you can't use the text to make your case, you have to add all this "extra" stuff.
Click here.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
.
LOL. New.modern.hyper grace teachers sure need a lot of words to cast their spell.
Translation: "I can't refute what they just showed us so I'll be quick and throw out an insult to try to discredit them instead!"



Originally Posted by Grace777x70

Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place

Pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1



"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - thiswe proclaim concerning the Word of Life"

(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.

"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics
) what wehave seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).

This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.

Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. (
just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )

"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).

John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).


"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).

In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.

"If we ( believers )
walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin"(verse 7).

In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.

"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).

John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.

He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.

However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if they..the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.

In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!

"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).

Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.

The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
Dear reader, if you want to appreciate the condemnation of hyper-gracers just read their positions.

They believe they are walking in sin, but can never be otherwise. To not accept this is evil. Evil has now be redefined as not accepting their belief system and saying morality matters. The prisons of this world are full of people who believe and live this way, it is lawlessness.

It is very odd that those who feel they only point to Christ want to declare the righteous as evil. I would say they are doing satans work for him.
None of them has said morality doesn't matter. But you are right about them giving up. They no longer attempt to be good because they have seen they can't be because there is no good in them, themselves. So they look to God to bring the child that receives the promise instead of trying to help as Abraham did. They have sent away the child of their own working because it is the child of the promise who receives the blessing.

They have left behind : by my own might I will\have won the victory. They have left it behind in order to wait for Gods promises, one of which is: not by might, but by My Spirit.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63




Let's get practical about some things:


  • For HRFTD's OP and assertion that John could have only been writing to believers in 1 John 1, he would have to know without a doubt that the recipient's of John's letter were ALL believers. Every. Single. One.

This same thing can go for the assertion that it was to nonbelievers, and it can be turned right back on you, and the assertion every single person HAD to be a believer for it to be addressed to the believers is ridiculous and complete nonsense, not only that but this could too be turned right back at the "it was only for the nonbeliever" position. It seems your case is getting weaker and weaker when the only mud you can sling can just as easily be slung right back at you too. Getting squirmy aren't we?
Jimbone, it's not an either believers/or unbelievers scenario, it's a both believers/and unbelievers scenario. Read the whole post.

-JGIG
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
1 John 1:9 – Something Old, Something New

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” What’s the problem with 1 John 1:9?
The problem is you are defining the theology and not God. God did not change with Christ, if anything he made it actually harder.

God is saying to Israel, this is who I am. I will protect you if you follow my ways. You will be blessed and prosper by just doing the simple things that will benefit you and keep you safe. The few who caught the real nature of the Lord, found the love of their lives. Most missed it in the hard rural life they had to live with wars and disease all around.

When finally they returned from exile, purified and dedicated to righteousness, if not in power but in attempt, the stage was set for Jesus. He was the heart of God, His essence, His character and desire, the thing that made creation His inspiration.
Once the disciples knew God as friend, then love as a community, love in total openness was possible. It was no longer absurd to say "love your enemy", "Love each other as I have loved you" because of the cross, the demonstration of total sacrifice for the benefit of all.

Jesus never dumped righteousness but empowered it with face to face love and understanding.
But you do not see this because in the King Davids time its was often war and brutal murder, rape, theft, where justice was hard to find, and child sacrifice to Baal was common place, with temple prostitutes and anything you wanted on offer.

But in the face of all this David still speaks to us, full of dedication, repentance and reconciliation.

But like talking to a blind man David is a stranger to you, doomed and lost, while God calls him blessed and redeemed.
Unless you can see him like God sees him you cannot claim to know God.