The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
- Thread starter HeRoseFromTheDead
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Let's get practical about some things:
- For HRFTD's OP and assertion that John could have only been writing to believers in 1 John 1, he would have to know without a doubt that the recipient's of John's letter were ALL believers. Every. Single. One.
Not being a personal witness of the time, that's simply not possible, so HRFTD cannot be considered to be an authoritative on that point.
- When New Testament letters went out, they went out to congregationS - they were passed around and copied so that as many local bodies could benefit as possible - that's one reason we have our New Covenant Scriptures today - LOTS of copies of apostolic letters got made!
- Here's the thing: Like with any church one can walk into today - there are believers, AND *gasp* unbelievers in the mix. And even maybe a few heretics!
While I also was not a personal witness of the time, this position is also not authoritative, but it is a much more credible assumption/scenario because we know that not every bottom that sits in a congregation is a saved bottom just because they're sitting there
.
- John knew this - and wrote his letter accordingly.
That's why soooo many scholars (see posts 1143-47) say that John was defending the faith against Gnosticism.
Could there have been Gnostics in the congregations to whom John was writing? Absolutely!
And John knew that, and wrote accordingly, using the polite, 'we', because, while Gnostics were not part of the local Body [of Christ], they were part of the local congregation, and were influencing the Body because they were in the congregation.
- And John DID preach the Gospel, because the Gospel brings Life to the Lost and corrects error in the believer, which is what the letter was all about.
-JGIG
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It seems impracticable of you to make the claim that it is impossible after admitting you were not there. However, I have not seen the claim anywhere that John's writings never fell into anybody else's hands, ever. The claim has concerned who was being addressed, and about what. Surely you can discern that? Others seem blind to that salient point. The claim is that John was addressing believers about another group of people, the gnostics, and their beliefs that were at odds with Christianity. Whether gnostics were present to hear such letters being read is completely beside the point.
Way back when? How long have you been here? Your join date on the account you are using now says you joined last August, less than six months ago. Is that "way back when" to you? Or are you referring to some other time, under some other account name before I was here, since I joined in July of last year?
K
Let's get practical about some things:
- For HRFTD's OP and assertion that John could have only been writing to believers in 1 John 1, he would have to know without a doubt that the recipient's of John's letter were ALL believers. Every. Single. One.
Not being a personal witness of the time, that's simply not possible, so HRFTD cannot be considered to be an authoritative on that point.
- When New Testament letters went out, they went out to congregationS - they were passed around and copied so that as many local bodies could benefit as possible - that's one reason we have our New Covenant Scriptures today - LOTS of copies of apostolic letters got made!
- Here's the thing: Like with any church one can walk into today - there are believers, AND *gasp* unbelievers in the mix. And even maybe a few heretics!
While I also was not a personal witness of the time, this position is also not authoritative, but it is a much more credible assumption/scenario because we know that not every bottom that sits in a congregation is a saved bottom just because they're sitting there.
- John knew this - and wrote his letter accordingly.
That's why soooo many scholars (see posts 1143-47) say that John was defending the faith against Gnosticism.
Could there have been Gnostics in the congregations to whom John was writing? Absolutely!
And John knew that, and wrote accordingly, using the polite, 'we', because, while Gnostics were not part of the local Body [of Christ], they were part of the local congregation, and were influencing the Body because they were in the congregation.
- And John DID preach the Gospel, because the Gospel brings Life to the Lost and corrects error in the believer, which is what the letter was all about.
-JGIG
John didn't use the term "WE" just to be polite............
He used that term "WE" because what he said is what all true believers in Christ should be doing, and rather there was unbelievers in the congregation is a mute point as he was still saying what all believers should be doing.
Just like today when you go to church and the preacher is doing a sermon on Christian etiquette, do you think the preacher is going to single people out and say you are doing this and you are not ???
No he will say this how "US" or "WE" believers in Christ will or should act !!!
Writing to believers. Yes. That has been the point made by HeRose all along. Yet you claim it is a contradiction of HeRose's earlier position (you said HeRose was "disagreeing with himself" #1171), yet you refuse to provide anything to back your allegation aside from your opinion, and obvious confusions concerning talking to as opposed to talking about.
If "we" Americans don't receive Jesus free gift of grace then we will not be saved .. Does that use "we" in that sentence mean that I am not born again?
John is using an editorial, all-encompassing "we".. because "we" all need to acknowledge we have sins and need a Savior to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
John is using an editorial, all-encompassing "we".. because "we" all need to acknowledge we have sins and need a Savior to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Let's get practical about some things:
- For HRFTD's OP and assertion that John could have only been writing to believers in 1 John 1, he would have to know without a doubt that the recipient's of John's letter were ALL believers. Every. Single. One.
Not being a personal witness of the time, that's simply not possible, so HRFTD cannot be considered to be an authoritative on that point.
- When New Testament letters went out, they went out to congregationS - they were passed around and copied so that as many local bodies could benefit as possible - that's one reason we have our New Covenant Scriptures today - LOTS of copies of apostolic letters got made!
- Here's the thing: Like with any church one can walk into today - there are believers, AND *gasp* unbelievers in the mix. And even maybe a few heretics!
While I also was not a personal witness of the time, this position is also not authoritative, but it is a much more credible assumption/scenario because we know that not every bottom that sits in a congregation is a saved bottom just because they're sitting there.
- John knew this - and wrote his letter accordingly.
That's why soooo many scholars (see posts 1143-47) say that John was defending the faith against Gnosticism.
Could there have been Gnostics in the congregations to whom John was writing? Absolutely!
And John knew that, and wrote accordingly, using the polite, 'we', because, while Gnostics were not part of the local Body [of Christ], they were part of the local congregation, and were influencing the Body because they were in the congregation.
- And John DID preach the Gospel, because the Gospel brings Life to the Lost and corrects error in the believer, which is what the letter was all about.
-JGIG
And the biggest thing is you can't use the text to make your case, you have to add all this "extra" stuff.
Scripture isolated can cause all sorts of opinions and traditions to be put in place
Pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"
(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.
"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).
This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.
Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )
"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).
John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).
"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).
In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.
"If we ( believers ) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).
In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.
Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.
"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).
John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.
He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.
However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if they..the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.
In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!
"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).
Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.
The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.
Pay attention to the ..we and our and the you in 1 John chapter 1
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we (believers - namely John ) have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life"
(I John 1:1).
In other words, John is establishing that he was an eyewitness to the fact that Jesus truly did come in the flesh. He did this to convince the Gnostics that Jesus was not an illusion.
"We ( believers - namely John himself ) proclaim to you (unbelievers - gnostics ) what we have seen and heard, so that you (unbelievers - gnostics ) also may have fellowship with us ( believers ). And our ( believers )fellowship is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (verse 3).
This verse says two things. First, John repeats the fact that he, the rest of the apostles and other people saw Christ in the flesh. He wanted the Gnostics ( unbelievers ) to realize that there were many people who could testify to the reality of Christ.
Second, he is saying that there are some people in the audience who were not in the fellowship with Christ. ( just like we do now in all churches....there are both types of people )
"This is the message we ( believers ) have heard from Him and declare to you ( unbelievers ): God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all" (verse 5).
John's message in this verse is clear: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. We are either in the light (saved) or in darkness (lost). Scriptures are full of this comparison between light (saved) vs. darkness (lost).
"If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth." (verse 6).
In other words, if someone says he has fellowship with Christ, but is walking in darkness (lost), he is lying and not practicing the truth. The Gnostics ( not true believers ) claimed to be in fellowship with Christ (saved), and yet were actually living a lie and therefore weren't practicing the truth.
"If we ( believers ) walk in the light, as He is in the light, we ( believers ) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us ( believers ) from all sin" (verse 7).
In other words, if we walk in the light (are saved) we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. To put it another way, once we are saved, we are permanently in the fellowship because the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from all sin.
Therefore, we aren't forgiven because we confess our sins. We are forgiven because of what Christ did for us on the cross.
"If we ( John putting all of us in the same boat before coming to Christ ) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (verse 8).
John is now addressing the belief the Gnostics had regarding sin because they didn't believe it was real and therefore believed they had no sin. The "we" John is using here refers to all people before coming to Christ including all believers too which "we" had to acknowledge at some point in our lives.
He is referring specifically to the Gnostics, who believed they were without sin. Because they claimed to be without sin, then they were only deceiving themselves and the truth (Jesus) was not in them.
However, verse 9 says that "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." In other words, if they..the Gnostics were to confess they had sins, then God, Who is faithful and righteous, would forgive and cleanse them from their unrighteousness.
In the Greek language, the words "forgive" and "cleanse" mean past actions that have results today and will continue to have results in the future. Also, the word "all" used in these verses means all. It doesn't mean that we are cleansed of our past sins and our past unrighteousness, it means we were cleansed of all our unrighteousness. And if God cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then we are cleansed forever!
"If we claim we ( all of us were in this boat at one time ) have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives" (verse 10).
Basically this verse is a repeat of verse 8. To put it simply, it means that the Gnostics can't claim to be without sin and yet be saved. John is saying that because the Gnostics claimed they had no sin, they were actually calling God a liar and therefore didn't know the truth.
The purpose of the first chapter of 1 John was to compare the truth of God to the error of gnosticism. John was addressing the Gnostics, who were deceived by their own teaching. He wanted the Gnostics to understand that what they believed conflicted with what God said. He was not, however, addressing believers.
2 Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”