The Deceitfulness of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[InSpiritInTruth]

If Christ is in a person, then they have already been judged and found not guilty by God, because Jesus was judged, took all of our sin, and paid the penalty completely.

It is finished. The blood is enough. It covers all of our sin - past, present, and future.

Stop trying to earn what you cannot possibly pay for.

Yes, IF Christ is in a person. That is the big IF is it not? If one claims to be "in Christ" but is still living "in sin" then something is amiss because Christ is not a sinner. IF a person is "in Christ" then they should walk as He walked= in righteousness. It's not about earning salvation, but about abiding in Christ by abiding in righteousness, because Christ who now dwells in us is our righteousness. The proof of a true conversion is in the WAY we walk.


Those who abide in sin do not abide in Christ.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

For me personally there is a theological journey that is on going here. Joseph Prince published a book in 2007 which has had great influence. Its followers though have created a new religious language and redefined traditional theological terms to mean something else. It confuses lots of conversations and actually deceives and lies about the fundamental beliefs of what salvation is, what the walk is, and what we expect to become.

Over the past year I have had interactions with people which struck me as odd. I was accused of things that did not make sense by people at face value christians but with an agenda. It now turns out they are all hyper-gracers, Grace7x77, Eternally-Grateful, Willey-T, Ember. I did not intend this to become a war of ideas, but the differences are not minor, they are fundamental to how you regard the Kingdom of Heaven and walking in righteousness.

Our aim as a group of traditionalists is to understand what has shifted and challenge it. It is not that we think it is wrong, it just opposes our spiritual walk and causes us to pause and want to know more.

And yes words matter, they are Gods words, eternal words, words that mean life and death.

Thank you for sharing that, I truly appreciate it. And, I agree, words do matter, bible words. Dispensation of the grace of God, what are your thoughts on these bible words in the context they are used, to you-ward.


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world

Strong words, if something is different it is not the same. We should examine ourselves when we are offended for our doctrines, it's a red flag, especially if we dismiss what God declares about the resurrection of His Son, "raised for our justification", "whereof He hath given assurance unto all men" in that He hath raised Him from the dead.


Death, burial and resurrection is not exclusive mystery truth, but the doctrine of our apostle for our ministry states, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel"


This has everything to do with what God is doing today and why we have an inner man to manifest, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" this is not speaking of the Word incarnate, but the spirit of holiness, " Christ be formed in you", this is our work, prepared in advance for us to do, build our house of doctrine so we can express the attitude of God with the mind of Christ.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+cor+5%3A17-21&version=KJV

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

*sigh*

It's talking about those who rely on their good works to earn a place in heaven! Do you even read what you post? It's exactly what I'm talking about - those who say you have to "do" are the very ones Christ is condemning!

They are not relying on His blood, they are relying on their own performance!

Nevertheless, they are born in the spirit and members of the covenant. All who are baptized into Christ's death are in Christ. You mentioned in a prior post that a Christian could not be lost regardless of what he does. Matthew 7:21-23 indicates that is clearly not true.

 

[Budman]

Yes, IF Christ is in a person. That is the big IF is it not? If one claims to be "in Christ" but is still living "in sin" then something is amiss because Christ is not a sinner. IF a person is "in Christ" then they should walk as He walked= in righteousness. It's not about earning salvation, but about abiding in Christ by abiding in righteousness, because Christ who now dwells in us is our righteous. The proof of a true conversion is in the WAY we walk.


Those who abide in sin do not abide in Christ.

How many sins will condemn a person?

One.

What is the requirement to enter heaven?

Perfection.

So, don't give me that "abide in sin" nonsense. One sin makes you a sinner, one sin condemns you. If you yourself truly live by what you are preaching, then you are condemned.

1 John says believers do not sin - not, they occasionally sin, do NOT sin. Not even once.

So, how is that possible?

Because we are judged by our new nature. Christ's nature. His righteousness imputed to us.

Why in the world can't you see you are a walking contradiction?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

All true. But the scripture is speaking of the unsaved.

If you want to take that route, then by your own admission, you are a sinner, and 1 John 3:9, 5:18 condemns you as lost. It's the logical conclusion. Those verses say believers do not sin - you sin - thus, you are not a believer.

I am a past tense sinner but present day saint. Those who are living in sin are the unrighteous, the saints walk in righteousness by the power of God. Again the proof is in the walk.

 

[Budman]

Nevertheless, they are born in the spirit and members of the covenant. All who are baptized into Christ's death are in Christ. You mentioned in a prior post that a Christian could not be lost regardless of what he does. Matthew 7:21-23 indicates that is clearly not true.

Once again....those verses refer to the lost. Those who lived their lives trying to earn salvation based on their performance.

Jesus did not say I knew you once...He said I NEVER knew you! So it cannot possibly be speaking of those who were saved and then lost salvation!

Will you please actually read the scriptures that you post!

 

[Budman]

I am a past tense sinner but present day saint. Those who are living in sin are the unrighteous, the saints walk in righteousness by the power of God. Again the proof is in the walk.

Then you are lost. You are a hypocrite. 1 John says a believer does not sin - period.

You've admitted you still sin.

Then by 1 John - you are not a believer.

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....

Of course they were believers. They professed "Lord, Lord". Every person baptized into Christ is part of his body, i.e. his bride. They are one flesh with him.

A man and woman get married, become one flesh and then later divorce. Someone asks the man what happened. The man says, "I felt so alone. I never knew her". Obviously, he knew her body, but that's all he knew. Her body was in the marriage, but her heart wasn't.

 

[Budman]

Of course they were believers. They professed "Lord, Lord". Every person baptized into Christ is part of his body, i.e. his bride. They are one flesh with him.

A man and woman get married, become one flesh and then later divorce. Someone asks the man what happened. The man says, "I felt so alone. I never knew her". Obviously, he knew her body, but that's all he knew. Her body was in the marriage, but her heart wasn't.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Even the married man knew his wife once - as his wife!

Jesus said He never knew them. Never means never. They were never a child of God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How many sins will condemn a person?

One.

What is the requirement to enter heaven?

Perfection.

So, don't give me that "abide in sin" nonsense. One sin makes you a sinner, one sin condemns you. If you yourself truly live by what you are preaching, then you are condemned.

1 John says believers do not sin - not, they occasionally sin, do NOT sin. Not even once.

So, how is that possible?

Because we are judged by our new nature. Christ's nature. His righteousness imputed to us.

Why in the world can't you see you are a walking contradiction?

Not true. That is what grace is all about. We are not kicked to the curb when we sin. If we live a life of sin, that is a different story. People can be severed from the covenant.

 

[Budman]

Not true. That is what grace is all about. We are not kicked to the curb when we sin. If we live a life of sin, that is a different story. People can be severed from the covenant.

Funny, then I guess John was mistaken when he wrote a believer does NOT sin.

Do you still sin?

Then guess what........I've got some bad news for ya.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is absolutely ridiculous. Even the married man knew his wife once - as his wife!

Jesus said He never knew them. Never means never. They were never a child of God.

That's just your interpretation. You're reading what you want to into it.

1 John says that we know we know GOD when we do his commandments. That goes both ways. GOD knows us when we do his commandments. GOD doesn't know born again Christians who don't do the will of GOD - "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of lawlessness."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Funny, then I guess John was mistaken when he wrote a believer does NOT sin.

Do you still sin?

Then guess what........I've got some bad news for ya.

That verse means that believers do not continue in sin. They can't because the spirit within them won't let them. If they persist, then they will become workers of lawlessness.

 

[Budman]

That's just your interpretation. You're reading what you want to into it.

1 John says that we know we know GOD when we do his commandments. That goes both ways. GOD knows us when we do his commandments. GOD doesn't know born again Christians who don't do the will of GOD - "I never knew you. Depart from me you workers of lawlessness."

My interpretation?

I know what the word "never" means!

If you are to be believed, then Jesus lied. If they were once believers and then they were lost, He knew them at one time!

Did He say He knew them once - but not anymore? Nope. He never knew them. Never.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

How many sins will condemn a person?

One.

What is the requirement to enter heaven?

Perfection.

So, don't give me that "abide in sin" nonsense. One sin makes you a sinner, one sin condemns you. If you yourself truly live by what you are preaching, then you are condemned.

1 John says believers do not sin - not, they occasionally sin, do NOT sin. Not even once.

So, how is that possible?

Because we are judged by our new nature. Christ's nature. His righteousness imputed to us.

Why in the world can't you see you are a walking contradiction?

If there is a contradiction, then it is in your own understanding of what I said. Are sins are forgiven in Christ, and those who are in Christ will not live a life of sin and walk in unrighteousness. But that's not to say it is not possible for a saint to ever sin again, that is also explained in scripture.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Budman]

That verse means that believers do not continue in sin. They can't because the spirit within them won't let them. If they persist, then they will become workers of lawlessness.

Now who's reading something into the text that's not there?

Where is the word "continue" in those verses?

He said believers do NOT sin. They do not. Period.

Do you know what the word "not" means? Because you apparently don't know the definition of the word "never".

 

[Grace777x70]

Ouch..that one is going to hurt!

My interpretation?

I know what the word "never" means!

If you are to be believed, then Jesus lied. If they were once believers and then they were lost, He knew them at one time!

Did He say He knew them once - but not anymore? Nope. He never knew them. Never.

 

[Grace777x70]

works again.....

Now who's reading something into the text that's not there?

Where is the word "continue" in those verses?

He said believers do NOT sin. They do not. Period.

Do you know what the word "not" means? Because you apparently don't know the definition of the word "never".

 

[Budman]

If there is a contradiction, then it is in your own understanding of what I said. Are sins are forgiven in Christ, and those who are in Christ will not live a life of sin and walk in unrighteousness. But that's not to say it is not possible for a saint to ever sin again, that is also explained in scripture.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Yep. The flesh sins. But we are not judged by the old nature. Get it? Our salvation does not depend on our performance. It's not based on our works. Our standing is based upon our new nature in Christ.

What you wrote does not, in any way, get you out of the consequences of 1 John. He said believers do not sin. End of story. And you can't wiggle your way out of it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

My interpretation?

I know what the word "never" means!

If you are to be believed, then Jesus lied. If they were once believers and then they were lost, He knew them at one time!

Did He say He knew them once - but not anymore? Nope. He never knew them. Never.

Truth is not constrained by your understanding of a word. I demonstrated that it's perfectly acceptable to say, "I never knew you", when in fact that person did know the other person, but only in a physical sense. This is just a fact of human experience. "I never knew that person even though I knew him for years."

Christ is talking about something altogether different than what you think the word means.