The Deceitfulness of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

1) You are asking me to judge the salvation of Christians turned Atheist and I asked what gospel they believed.

I think it was pretty obvious from her post that they believed the gospel of Christ. All who are baptized into Christ are in Christ. They are circumcised in the heart and become members of the new covenant. That is by definition being saved.

I met someone exactly like she described. He was formerly a devoted Christian who turned his back completely on Christ and disavowed him.

 

[Jimbone]

They believed they were saved by grace through faith, born again of the Spirit of God. Some were well studied in Scripture, though as atheists they had largely thrown over any true understanding in favor of scoffing. Like I said, it was quite sad to witness such apostasy. The gospel of my salvation? Hmmm. I believe Scripture. Of course being here the last six months I see how it gets pulled this way and that... not to mention eight years before that partaking in apologetics on two other sites. Jesus paid the price. He is the propitiatory sacrifice, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world, reconciling all who believe, to God. God unmistakably called me out of the wilderness, where I had wandered until I was almost fifty. I simply found, in light of my experiences, that I could no longer deny Who He was. I had called out to Him for help, and He had extended Himself to me, long before I came to belief and a fuller surrender. But even before that, He had revealed His unconditional love and forgiveness to me, when I was at the lowest point of my life, feeling broken beyond repair. One thing I know for sure: God meets us where we are. Our God is an awesome God! Okay, that was two things. Like Paul, I repented, and came to believe. It is how Jesus started His earthly ministry: calling people to repentance and belief.

Amen sister, you've read how He saved me and it was the same thing. That night on my knees I was crushed, fully broken, and honestly at that point I called myself a Christian. I had been told by the preacher, "come up here and give your life to Jesus, repeat after me -sinners prayer- now you are saved. Now no one can take it from you as long as you believe you are golden, we are still sinners and will still sin, but you are saved and God is pleased with you no matter what". Well guess what? I WASN'T saved at all then, I repeated the words, thought I believed, but I no more knew Jesus then at any time before when I denied God existed. What I did was started to like the idea of Jesus, but I had no clue what a HUGE word "believe" truly was, and nobody told me about the transformation that happens upon TRUE conversion, I guess they were too scared to be labeled "legalistic" or something, but it almost bought me a 1 way ticket to hell. So many here are so scared to talk about the change in our life that leads us to BEHAVE more like Jesus says, and that is a BIG part of what confused me about the whole thing. They also talk about this like it's chains and I've NEVER been more free, it broke the chains of sins, yet these same people are so fast to say "I'm a sinner and you will always sin" almost with pride, and I just don't get it, yes we will continue to struggle with our sinful nature, key word being "struggle".

Yes I know we will never be perfect, yes I know that works don't save us, yes I know God loves us and will never turn us away, but there is a HUGE change that comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and when I do sin now I am hyper sensitive to it and don't WANT to do it again. That is the "walk" that is always talked about and that one side of this debate can't stand to hear. That is the narrow "path" Jesus talked about, yes He is the gate, but He also talked about the WAY, and that WAY is not bondage as some view it, not from my point of view anyway. It is the way the Spirit empowers me to live like this now, and ALL glory goes to Him for it, I NEVER COULD live that way without Him, and to me that is the whole point. He CHANGES our lives FOREVER, and I praise His beautiful name for it.

 

[PeterJens]

I think it was pretty obvious from her post that they believed the gospel of Christ. All who are baptized into Christ are in Christ. They are circumcised in the heart and become members of the new covenant. That is by definition being saved.

I met someone exactly like she described. He was formerly a devoted Christian who turned his back completely on Christ and disavowed him.

How is it that you can come to faith in Christ, but not fall out of faith in Christ?
How many marriages start saying we will divorce, it is just a question of time? No they start we will live together like this forever...

What is also odd is if you suggest you observe what faith is, its beauty and its fragility, you are now an unbeliever.
Many sincere Christians have ended up atheists, and sincere atheists Christians.

I have a deep respect for some of the atheists sincerity on how they define truth.
One thing staggared me, was a relationship I had with a brother. I shared for years about the glorious nature of Christs love for us. One day his son a teenage 19, stood up to him, and swore. My friend lost it and smacked the boy round the head.
He had grown up with automatic respect for your dad culture, and here was his son throwing this over.

It went so deep in this man, he said he would never forgive his son even if he went to hell. After about a year, finally the Lord broke through again with humbleness and love, and my friend repented and came back to the Lord.

Now I share this because people follow Jesus for many different reasons and have many issues unresolved in who they are, which may take them away. The seed works through us, and changes us, but only on the outside can others see.

Those who talk of instant anything have little experience of real life and real people. It is always a walk.
So I always say, I a sinner am redeemed by Christ crucified, I cannot boast in anything say His work in me.
His work in me is not down to a teacher, or theology but the work of the Holy Spirit through His word. That has always been enough for me.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is it that you can come to faith in Christ, but not fall out of faith in Christ?
How many marriages start saying we will divorce, it is just a question of time? No they start we will live together like this forever...

New.modern.hyper grace devotees believe that they are already married with Christ, not realizing that they are simply betrothed to Christ. He has promised to return and marry his bride, but the parable of the foolish virgins reveals that not all who are betrothed will end up being married to Christ. He never knew them because they weren't walking in his spirit, but were following another spirit.

For I am jealous [for] you with a godly jealousy, because I promised you [in marriage] to one husband, to present [you as] a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds may be led astray from the sincerity and the purity of [devotion] to Christ. For if the one who comes proclaims another Jesus whom we have not proclaimed, or you receive a different spirit which you did not receive, or a different gospel which you did not accept, you put up with [it] well [enough]! 2 Corinthians 11:2-4​

 

[PeterJens]

Do people really know?

What are we? Vessels of a precious gift, being remade into the likeness of Jesus, or pure redeemed people clothed in glory?
Hyper-grace in one version or another believe we have already arrived.
Grace believers believe we are redeemed vessels in the process of change to be the likeness of Jesus.

The difference is our starting point in faith and the journey. It only matters because it effects how you view the walk.
If you have arrived, it is about exploring what is.
If you are travelling it is about becoming something different.

My experience is a travel, a growth, a transformation, a learning of what was a real spiritual experience and what is just belief. Rather than exploring, it has always been about learning and growth.

What I always saw around me was need and people desiring something more. Now a need for more is not an exploration of what is but a need for change and depth. So nothing this hyper-grace movement matches 40 years of fellowship experience.

 

[PeterJens]

The power of the label "carnal" or "flesh"

Simplification by labels. All ideas are presented in layers. If you can label an idea and put everything you like under that label whether true or not, it helps direct peoples thinking.

So the label is "carnal" evil. The structure is a set of rules that dictate behaviour. An order is wrong, a rebuke is wrong, a negative expression is wrong, or evil.

The label for good is "spirit". The structure is set everything positive about Jesus is good and His people.

These are powerful censorship ideas, which do not let ideas link in your mind but build links along certain points of view.
Once set the thought process goes from one idea to the next with the only single interpretation. Any contradiction is just a lie, or a wrong view. It creates a world view that is deceptively self sustaining and addictive.

It is another version of positivism, where only positive things matter.
Unfortunately this creates another religion within Christianity which has its own rules and behaviour while regarding the same scriptures, but excluding or including them by a set of exterior rules. Truth is defined by this "lens" no longer by love and the Holy Spirit. Once you get your head around this approach you will see what they are saying and why it is different to the real gospel of faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Cor 1:18

If you walk in the shadow of the cross in righteousness, amen, glory to God. However you might or might not believe, Amen and praise to Christ my Saviour, for in Him I have no fault or failing.

I can but share my life and my story, what you do with it is your affair, I have done all I can to the Praise of His name.

It is foolishness. Thats why you can Ken can't get it, It is foolish to think one is so sinful he can not no matter how hard one tries ever live up to the standard God gave, and thus he is required to live 24/7 under the grace of God until the day he dies.

Human wisdom says we must do something anything, to at least make up for the sins we have done, It rejects the very fact that nothing we could ever do would ever make us righteous in the eyes of a righteous God..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's proof that you're wrong.

1 John 1:7 Do we need continual cleansing of sin?

By the way, the "walk in the light" part is just something that we have made "present continuous" but it actually refers to a state. Someone who walks in light is someone who believes in Jesus. Someone who walks in darkness is someone who denies Jesus.

It's the same as in Romans 8:1-9 when it says "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit". This is not present continuous but is in fact a state a person is in or not in. You are either "in the flesh" (not born again) or "in the Spirit" (born again). Someone who is in the flesh walks after the flesh. Someone who is born again walks after the Spirit. Romans 8:9 clearly shows us this "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you." Someone who has the Spirit dwelling in them is someone who is in the Spirit and therefore walks after the Spirit. ​

Here is where it proves you are wrong.

John 13:10
Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

My soul is completely clean, That is what Justification, redemption, the washing of regeneration means.

My feet (flesh) however, needs to be washed.. because it is still dirty, BUT I AM COMPLETELY CLEAN.

Maybe your not?? Thats why you feel you need to keep washing or you will lose salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit.

Amen sis Col 2;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[SUP][c][/SUP] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

For those of us who have placed our true faith in Christ, these things are a present day reality in our hearts

1. We have been circumcized via the circumcision of Christ
2. We have been made alive in Christ
3. We have the forgiveness of all sin
4. We have the penalty of sin removed from us, because it was nailed to the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have not denied Scripture as you did. What say you? Are those people saved? Were they ever? They believed they were, and now they blaspheme His name... blasphemy, what Jesus identified as the only unforgivable sin.

Scripture says they were never saved.

Why would you want to say they were? If they are blaspheming the name of Jesus, then they are antichrist. John tells us their situation.

 

[Grace777x70]

And our inner man is sealed by the Holy Spirit..

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.


Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Amen sis Col 2;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[SUP][c][/SUP] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [SUP]14 [/SUP]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

For those of us who have placed our true faith in Christ, these things are a present day reality in our hearts

1. We have been circumcized via the circumcision of Christ
2. We have been made alive in Christ
3. We have the forgiveness of all sin
4. We have the penalty of sin removed from us, because it was nailed to the cross.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it was pretty obvious from her post that they believed the gospel of Christ. All who are baptized into Christ are in Christ. They are circumcised in the heart and become members of the new covenant. That is by definition being saved.

I met someone exactly like she described. He was formerly a devoted Christian who turned his back completely on Christ and disavowed him.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][c][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


John said these people who so called disavow Christ, were never saved, they left the church to prove they were never a part of the church, For as John said, if they were truly a part of the church, they never would have departed, and now deny Christ..

Please not. The prodigal son departed his father, but he never denied his father, He was still his fathers son.

The people who claimed to be the fathers son, yet now deny he is even the father, were never the fathers son.

 

[Complete_In_Him]

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

Let me show you something, our purpose is to "study to shew thyself approved", to preach the doctrines of God. God has inspired words and God preserved an arrangement in scripture for a reason, our edification as we build a house of doctrine into our inner man. This is the manifestation of God in the flesh, Christ be formed in you, the mind of Christ knows, proves the will of God, the goodwill of God toward all men, the attitude of God, in this, the ambassador.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (KJV)

When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit as a personage, it is with a capital H. When the scripture speaks of that spirit that is of God and our possession, directly connected to us, the inner man, the spirit of holiness, little h.

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

I would eventually like to talk about sanctification, biblical fornication and our walk.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's an extraordinarily deceitful (but typical) twisting of scripture by a popular new.modern.hyper grace teacher to make the claim that GOD blesses people in their sins.

You see, under the old covenant, you receive God’s blessings only if you keep all His laws. (Deuteronomy 28:1–2) If you sin and fail to keep even one law, you will be disqualified from receiving His blessings. But today, under the new covenant, your sins no longer disqualify you because God Himself has said, “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Hebrews 8:12)​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's an extraordinarily deceitful (but typical) twisting of scripture by a popular new.modern.hyper grace teacher to make the claim that GOD blesses people in their sins.

You see, under the old covenant, you receive God’s blessings only if you keep all His laws. (Deuteronomy 28:1–2) If you sin and fail to keep even one law, you will be disqualified from receiving His blessings. But today, under the new covenant, your sins no longer disqualify you because God Himself has said, “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Hebrews 8:12)​

So God did not pay the price for all sin?

Dang, And here I thought I would get to heaven, Guess I have to worry now. So tell me, What sins did Jesus not die for??

(noting, in context, what that person said is true, If your NOT SAVED your under the new covenant, not the new, you are only under the new covenant if you have recieved the grace of Christ..)

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!..I agree...why don't you start a tread on biblical fornication and sanctification...I think I mentioned in some post about we can be doing spiritual adultery when we go back to the law and not fully trust in Jesus and in His finished work for us.....romans 7:1-4

Let me show you something, our purpose is to "study to shew thyself approved", to preach the doctrines of God. God has inspired words and God preserved an arrangement in scripture for a reason, our edification as we build a house of doctrine into our inner man. This is the manifestation of God in the flesh, Christ be formed in you, the mind of Christ knows, proves the will of God, the goodwill of God toward all men, the attitude of God, in this, the ambassador.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (KJV)

When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit as a personage, it is with a capital H. When the scripture speaks of that spirit that is of God and our possession, directly connected to us, the inner man, the spirit of holiness, little h.

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

I would eventually like to talk about sanctification, biblical fornication and our walk.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

John said these people who so called disavow Christ, were never saved, they left the church to prove they were never a part of the church, For as John said, if they were truly a part of the church, they never would have departed, and now deny Christ..

Please not. The prodigal son departed his father, but he never denied his father, He was still his fathers son.

The people who claimed to be the fathers son, yet now deny he is even the father, were never the fathers son.

Saying that John said they were never saved is called reading into the text. John didn't said that they weren't 'saved'. He simply said they left because they weren't following the same doctrine (spirit).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Saying that John said they were never saved is called reading into the text. John didn't said that they weren't 'saved'. He simply said they left because they weren't following the same doctrine (spirit).

oh wow dude

He said do not sad because they left us, for they were NEVER OF US.. The left to prove, that they were never of us.

And your saying that is not saying they were never saved?

Talk about twisting the word of God.. How can someone not be a part of the church (part of us) and be saved at the same time??

They followed a different doctrine (gospel) of that your right, thats why they were never saved, Their doctrine (gospel) had no power to save or they would still be with the church, and never left giving god the finger and becoming against him.

 

[Grace777x70]

They "need" things to be that way so that their doctrine of losing your salvation in Christ can be verified...we must "do" our part to help out Christ in our salvation..or else!...you get booted out of the family...and you have to "un-born" yourself...it's man-made religion at it's finest..........

oh wow dude

He said do not sad because they left us, for they were NEVER OF US.. The left to prove, that they were never of us.

And your saying that is not saying they were never saved?

Talk about twisting the word of God.. How can someone not be a part of the church (part of us) and be saved at the same time??

They followed a different doctrine (gospel) of that your right, thats why they were never saved, Their doctrine (gospel) had no power to save or they would still be with the church, and never left giving god the finger and becoming against him.

 

[popeye]

Knowing who you are in Christ is important but it doesn't fight the battle.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
(Eph 6:10-18)

Yes exactly.
So many concepts are misunderstood through a one dimensional prism.

Last time I contributed to this subject I zeroed in on the cross and BINGO,it offended one side of the argument.

WOW,the cross offends?....Uh,yes it does.

Paul said he picked up his DAILY.
Jesus said it was a must for following him.

Crucifying the flesh is the key to WALKING IN HOLINESS.

THIS THREAD MIRACULOUSLY HITS ALL AROUND THE TARGET,BUT OMITS THE KEY.