LOL, I had to laugh at that.
Let me reverse this on you, would enter and worship in a hyper-grace church knowing that they will disagree with you?
The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)
- Thread starter JGIG
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Let me reverse this on you, would enter and worship in a hyper-grace church knowing that they will disagree with you?
Oh give it up. You know very well you tried to slide one in. You, yourself would have been the very first one to cry "heretic" if someone else had done something so deceptive.
No, I wouldn't because I would instantly recognize it as parody. Sheesh! You guys are such uptight legalists.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Goodnewsman, two things:
- All of your sins were in the future when Christ did the Work of the Cross. If they didn't get forgiven then, you're out of luck.
- Only those who receive what Christ has done will be saved. I made that clear in the OP. I re-posted it below and made that specific part big so you wouldn't miss it
.
-JGIG
This question always bothered me.
If Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, and ALL sin was judged and paid for and even unbelief is a sin. What are unbelievers judged by then?
Not one unbeliever is judged for their sin.........not even their unbelief. They are judged by their DEEDS. Their own righteousness............human good.
At the GWT judgement books are opened and it conveys a courtroom scene.Since ALL sin is paid for every unbeliever gets to "plead" their case with their DEEDS done in the flesh.
This is why religion is satans ace trump. It is creature good that is judged, not their sin.......Christ paid for all sin.
our righteousness doesn't hold a candle to Christ's righteous DEED on the Cross.
2 Cor 11:15~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
This concept is universalism. All sin is paid for, so no one is guilty of sin before the Lord.
This is the equation way of looking at salvation, and saying Jesus is meeting faith as a debt of something.
Another way of looking at it is your personal sin has created a personal debt in you towards God. It is the spoilt child who lashes out because they claim they are not loved or cared for and it is not their fault. This creates a massive need in that individual to be shown they are loved and accepted. Without this key in their lives they are lost forever, eternally flawed driven by pain and loneliness.
So Jesus is dying literally only for those who see their debt, their need and He is the answer. He is saying I do love you, to the deepest and greatest extent that anyone or anything can express, but you need to accept this to find life.
T
his is an emotional, a spiritual and a real insight. It takes all of you as a person and makes you a Child of the Living God.
This is salvation, this is what it means to walk with Jesus and know who He is.
This is not some formula or judgement in a distant court room far away, where you think through who is judged for what.
Those who know they are sinners and see Jesus on the cross are healed just by that sight and what it means to them.
What this thread testifies to is many do not know this reality, and such an odd theology as a result.
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I agree. It is very amusing. The problem with a group who base their methodology by saying we are not religious like them, do not do this this way but that or else you are "carnal" "evil", is a 100% set of rules and the mirror of what they claim they are avoiding.
It is 100% to trap of polarisation, you become what you hate.
That is why hate is such a dangerous thing.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
Its not universalism my friend. Many will go to the LoF based on their DEEDS and not their SIN.
Can you show me a verse that says anyone is judged or condemned or placed in the LoF(lake of fire) according to their sins?
It doesn't say that people are thrown into the lof because of their deeds, but because their names aren't in the book of life.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.Rev 21:8
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
1 Tim 1:8-11
Who is sent to Lof? Sinners. A sinner is someone who is not righteous, who breaks the law through actions.
You have attempted to separate deeds from sins, and make deeds into only good deeds done but not in Christ.
So for you the punishment for Lof is good deeds. Wow. That is quite an unjust gospel in the extreme.
People are rubbished not for being a disfunctional mess but because they did not do the right good things in the right way. One little step and God will relent because I mean, heaven is just one big party of the forgiven, and everyone is forgiven.
S
sydlit
Guest
prodigal SON!!! S.....O.....N!!!
Not 'prodigal disowned kicked out forsaken outcast' .....
prodigal SON. Always a SON!
Straying, wandering, miserable, perhaps,
but ALWAYS A SON!!!
You obviously are either deaf
or didn't listen to the 3 min. vid clip.
CHOSEN BY GOD! IN HIM!
Do you want to try to un-choose what God has chosen?!
Good luck with that!
You and GNM don't even seem to believe in your own nicknames.
Jesus rose, proving the penalty was paid in full,
but you keep wanting to put Him back in the grave,
and make the resurrection contingent on whether
or not a person behaves a certain way.
Get over yourself. He rose from the grave, that's the fact 'jack',
(you listening GNM?), that's the truth to be proclaimed.
Spend some time posting what a joyous thing it is to be saved,
instead of trying to convince everybody else they're not.
And WHO, pray tell, does the writing of those names?
You call yourselves 'herosefromthedead' and 'goodnewsman',
but in checking your posts on various threads,
I don't find much in the way of 'Good News'
that you're sharing with others.
He might want to change that nickname to
'uh-oh-warning-troubling-news-man'.
Jesus said to rejoice because our names are written in heaven.
Do you think He was trying to trick us
into believing something that isn't true?!
Feel free to pray this with me,
Father in heaven, thank you for salvation, in Jesus' name, amen.
Do we struggle sometimes? Doubts? Fears? Insecurities?
Trials and tribulations? Yes, we do. So?
Then we pray, Father, I'm struggling here, please help me.
Or, I believe, Lord, help, Thou, my unbelief.
Or any number of prayers to express your heart to God.
And we even have His Holy Spirit interceding FOR us!
Sometimes we don't know what to pray.
This life can be hard.
If someone wants to praise the Lord
for the salvation they believe they have in Jesus,
why do you want to rain on their parade?
(be a mummer, not a bummer)
If you have issues with your standing, by all means,
work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
If Jesus really is our Lord and Saviour,
If He really did die for our sins and rise from the grave,
If our name's really are written in the Lamb's book of life,
Then let's rejoice together, He's bringing us to an expected end.
Eternal life in His kingdom which has no end. Thank you, Jesus!
G
Gr8grace
Guest
We have titles. We are Children, new creations, His body, His Bride, His righteousness.
Sinners are still titled as sinners. We were once known as sinners, but now we are known as the Children of God but still sin.
The unbelieving are still known as sinners, they die in the sphere of their own sins, but they are not judged by them.
New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.( not sin, Jesus Christ paid for all sin)
We have an obligation to the Lord. This obligation is to bring truth and reality to the body of Christ.
I came here to share my life and experience, basics of christian experience and I was set upon, literally.
Now if these people who say I am lying, a hypocrite, an unbeliever, lost in need of repentance and faith in Jesus have a different faith to me. If they were with me spiritually they would not speak like this.
The Lord sent me on a walk to just question and share what these people in "Christ" actually believe, and to bring into the light.
No one should be scared of what or how they believe, it is a choice, but it matters when you say someone else is evil, from the source of destruction and rebellion against God and say it is just innocent banter.
Now it goes a bit worse if you find this evil is just disagreeing with theology or walking in righteousness or saying christians have morals. Yes something is wrong here, but it is not simple.
And to be honest those who actually walk with the Lord are not going to let such things stay hidden or left alone as if these words and responses mean nothing. They are our very faith and our walk, they are meat and drink of our daily experience.
So I praise the Lord and put on the full armour of God.
If you want to discuss a point of view, saying your interpretation is the only interpretation, and repeating it does not make it more true. I understand your idea. As I explained in my earlier post you have created a universal sin and debt problem outside the individual person that makes sense. I think it is literally junk and insane. There is no exterior debt we owe to God, there is a debt in our hearts that needs resolving. Without that resolution we are lost.
Can you see this idea at all? I suspect not, because if you could see it, you would be like me, and not across the divide.
I think this divide is real, and is dictated by spiritual and emotional experience of God.
I also think this is why the pharisees did not understand the parables or their implications, because it only makes sense when you are in the right place with Him. I think HeRoseFromTheDead understands what I mean, which tends to confirm my take on this.
G
Gr8grace
Guest
then why does the bible separate them?
Christ died for the deeds of the world?
or
Christ died for the sins of the world?
New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins(Not deeds); and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(Not sin, He died for the whole worlds sins)
Sin~~ἁμαρτία, ας, ἡ.....a sin,prop: missing the mark; hence: (a) guilt, sin, (b) a fault, failure (in an ethical sense), sinful deed.
Deeds~~ἔργον, ου, τό....,work, labor, action, deed,, task, employment; a deed, action; that which is wrought or made, a work.
Our self righteous deeds, done in the flesh are what are judged.
And knowing and trusting that Christ DID pay for all of our sins is the basic truth of salvation. I pray you have just forgotten this fact.
K
KennethC
Guest
That is not right, as just as believers are judged and rewarded based on faithful servitude !!!
So Luke 12 shows that there is different amounts of punishment handed out to sinners for how sinful they were !!!
G
Gr8grace
Guest
In our old nature their is not just sin, there is self righteousness. And the want to be righteous all by ourselves.
This is why grace is antagonized, it leaves no room for self and the "good" that self can do.
And this is were the majority are stuck, not on sin.
You are wrong. (sorry for being direct but I am just reading scripture as it is put forward)
Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 13:38-39
Belief or faith sets you free from every sin, which is not possible any other way. Jesus does not wash away sin other than by faith in Him.
When Paul talks about Jesus dying for everyone this is a shortened version of Him saying access to forgiveness is available to everyone, not it is actually applied to everyone. It is that straightforward.
Paul is writing as he does because he would not believe you could create such a concept or theology from his words, but that is what you have done.
It is an abstraction of reality and completely disconnecting the individual from guilt over their sin, and how sin is bound to the heart of the sinner. It is why people cannot have fellowship with God, it is not some odd washing or mystical thing that happens when they die to make it possible. The more we talk about different models the clearer it becomes to me.