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Gr8grace
Guest
That is not right.
So the whole bible shows that there are differing levels(less or more bearable) for how much self righteousness they lived in.
I told you didn't I!!!
The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)
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That is not right.
So the whole bible shows that there are differing levels(less or more bearable) for how much self righteousness they lived in.
I told you didn't I!!!
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KennethC
Guest
What the issue is you are separating what is not separate..............self-righteousness is sin !!!
This self-righteousness is the sin that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for, and in Matthew 5:20 said unless our righteousness exceeds those of the Pharisees then we will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Because the Pharisees were steep in the sin of self-righteousness !!!
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Gr8grace
Guest
Peter, just one question.
Do you believe that Christ died for the sins of the whole world?
not for ours only, but for the sin of the whole world.
Let me take a simple concept.
Everyone is washed by the lamb, the whole of creation, sin taken away. So the level playing field is completely purified, made holy, perfect without stain. If this was so no more sins could be done. Everything would be judged and all causes of evil removed.
That is only possible at the day of judgement. Until then things are left in this world of spiritual conflict and different kingdoms.
It seriously dishonours my Lord to talk of the shedding of His blood to cleanse those who hate him, while they continue in hatred. It also denies the power of the blood through faith in the heart of the believer.
If you saw what sin really is, you would understand the blasphemy and insult the imagery you are creating, and the insanity of this language. It is saying Hitler is washed of sin and is only condemned because of his good failed deeds.
There is no hope for you guys of you think this makes sense at all. I hope for your sakes you never meet real evil in this world, because you would just not go here with this kind of idea, it is just sick.
Everyone is washed by the lamb, the whole of creation, sin taken away. So the level playing field is completely purified, made holy, perfect without stain. If this was so no more sins could be done. Everything would be judged and all causes of evil removed.
That is only possible at the day of judgement. Until then things are left in this world of spiritual conflict and different kingdoms.
It seriously dishonours my Lord to talk of the shedding of His blood to cleanse those who hate him, while they continue in hatred. It also denies the power of the blood through faith in the heart of the believer.
If you saw what sin really is, you would understand the blasphemy and insult the imagery you are creating, and the insanity of this language. It is saying Hitler is washed of sin and is only condemned because of his good failed deeds.
There is no hope for you guys of you think this makes sense at all. I hope for your sakes you never meet real evil in this world, because you would just not go here with this kind of idea, it is just sick.
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KennethC
Guest
That is not right.
So the whole bible shows that there are differing levels(less or more bearable) for how much self righteousness they lived in.
I told you didn't I!!!
You make absolutely no sense because you think self-righteousness and sin are two separate things when they are not.
Plus I gave you Luke 12 that clearly shows different amounts of punishment handed out !!!
Gr8grace - Do you understand one simple point? Sin is your sin. It cannot be removed unless you exercise faith.
Jesus died so that anyone can claim this. He did not deal with sin that will never be forgiven.
Language in scripture is pictures, approximations, summaries. It means nothing if you take things the wrong way.
But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
Rom 3:5-6
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2
John is saying something strange. He saying if we sin we have forgiveness through faith in Jesus.
In the temple morning and evening a sacrifice was made for Israel in general.
Now did this make Israel all clean? No. But it did to those who claimed it by faith.
So equally if anyone in the world claims Jesus by faith, walks in the atonement. Before we are chosen and respond in faith we are lost, though Jesus has died for us. He is the atoning sacrifice for all, but only when they claim it.
To a Jew this would be obvious implication. To you you take it to mean all sin is washed away in the whole world with or without faith. That is a great divide.
On this idea all sin was washed clean in the world not just in Israel by the sacrifices in the temple.
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Here is a article based on the finished work of the grace of Christ teaching on Luke 12...if interested click on link below.....the comments at the end are good to look over s some ask questions there....
The Parable of the Beaten Servants (Luke 12:35-48)
The Parable of the Beaten Servants (Luke 12:35-48) – Escape to Reality
The Parable of the Beaten Servants (Luke 12:35-48)
The Parable of the Beaten Servants (Luke 12:35-48) – Escape to Reality
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KennethC
Guest
I read the article and it shows why listening to other men over what the clear scripture says dangerous.
This passage from Jesus is talking about judgment after His second coming, but your article says it refers to His first coming during the earthly ministry, which is not true !!!
They took and bent this passage to make it speak of other than what Jesus said clearly what He was speaking on in verse 12:40; His second coming and the judgment that follows !!!
Jesus said these unfaithful or disobedient servants will be appointed with the unbelievers, and there are other such passages speaking on the lake of fire that says the unbelievers and disobedient will be cast there !!!
Now day doctrines are having luke warm people saved, when Jesus said He would spit them out !!!
So, in other words it "conflicts " with your religious beliefs ..I knew that ...the article wasn't really for you..it was for people wanting to view scriptures without the Old Covenant mindset and religious traditions......your mind is fixed on losing salvation and everyone keeps telling you the same thing....oh well...you do have a choice...God bless you!
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KennethC
Guest
It conflicts with what the Word of God says !!!
Lord Jesus clearly showed this refers to His second coming and the judgment that follows, it had nothing to do with His first coming !!!
The problem is because all of you who don't believe one can walk away from Christ only look at it in the faulty works or earn perspective. You can not see the truth of what is said because your so blinded by false straw-man lies !!!
Until you take the blinders off to see what another is actually saying to you, your understanding will still be flawed. And if you keep being blind to what I have said, then I can discern you do the same thing with scripture.
Catholic's do the same thing they stay blind to what the actual scripture says because they hold to what their teachers say over God's word !!!
Propoganda spiel is to slander a person with a sound bite. They say "You are blind" while just ignoring the main points.
Now this propoganda works for those who listen to the teachers. Once a teacher starts doing this without addressing the issues they are just brain-washed.
Any anger is explained as merely the religious responding in pride. This is very similar to the idea you only say things because you hate someone, not you have a legitimate argument. It is all about creating antagonism, polarising a response.
Realise this is all the ammunition they have, because their arguments are so empty and weak.
They believe sin is not dealt with within the individual believer but corporately. They have no proper view of seeing Jesus as a loving holy personal interaction, just a nice guy who buys us out of trouble. They desire to steal grace from the body of Christ and make those in the Kingdom argue against the very grace that saves them. It is such a neat trick, but also very deadly. We need to push them to truly work through their theology so either they give up their insanity or come back to real faith and real life.
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This is a very tricky question and I want to be very careful how I answer it, but no I don't feel I would still have salvation, and I don't feel it would be "on God" or a contradiction of His word if that happened. I also have to say that I can not even start to fathom how I could ever turn from His love and truth having truly experienced it as I have, but if "I" turned from Him then I feel God would respect my free will and not drag me into His eternal presence when I no longer wanted it. Again I can't imagine me ever making that choice, but I do think the bible supports this view as well, and it's not a matter of God's word not holding true at all, but me still having free will and choosing VERY poorly. Another thing is it's a complete hypothetical and I really don't like making an argument this way at all, but if life went all Job on me and I lost my family, stuff, health, and became so bitter that "I" turned from Him, then no I do not think He would drag me into heaven against my wishes, as unlikely and unimaginable as that hypothetical situation is. I think He would be faithful to the very end and it was my choice to reject Him.
may I recommend a stronger prescription for your glasses. LOL that's not what I said at all.
I asked you a question concerning the parable of the 2 debtors
how do you explain it in light of your views on forgiven future sins?
let me explain: if all your future sins are forgiven at the cross (as you believe) why then would God warn here of being punished for the sin of unforgiveness? it would make no sense for God to punish a sin, he already forgave!
QUOTE=JGIG;2455792]So it's not the Blood of Christ that provides for our salvation, but our ability to forgive others?
-JGIG[/QUOTE]
I asked you a question concerning the parable of the 2 debtors
how do you explain it in light of your views on forgiven future sins?
let me explain: if all your future sins are forgiven at the cross (as you believe) why then would God warn here of being punished for the sin of unforgiveness? it would make no sense for God to punish a sin, he already forgave!
QUOTE=JGIG;2455792]So it's not the Blood of Christ that provides for our salvation, but our ability to forgive others?
-JGIG[/QUOTE]
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KennethC
Guest
I liked your post because what you say is true, and the only thing I would add is to make sure when speaking of ourselves then yes we can say it is only hypothetical.....
However the Word of God does not state it in a hypothetical situation but as a reality that some can and will fall away !!!
I agree and that was how I meant it. I can only speak of my own personal experience, and understand what you mean, and feel like you understood what I was saying too. We are on the same page as far as I can tell. Thanks and have a good night. 8^)
I can only be responsible for what I say, not for how you hear it.
I responded to what you had to say in your last post - and there were some perceptions that you posted about what the Grace position is that are not true. This is the place to clarify what we do believe, yes? That's all I was doing, not arguing.
My intent is not to get in the last word or to have my ego stroked. My intent is to point folks to Christ. And I think I've been faithful to do that.
Thank you for the blessings. Grace and peace to you.
-JGIG
The way I understand it is that those who are in Christ come before the Throne in His Righteousness, and are judged accordingly - deeds that were produced by the Spirit stand; those produced by the flesh are burned up. Those who come to the Throne who are not in Christ come before the Throne in their own righteousness, and are also judged accordingly - and since every deed outside of Christ is of the flesh, they are burned up.
Only the Righteousness of Christ satisfies the Justice of God.
The commands of God after the Cross are to believe on the One He sent and to love one another - the first is a 'deed', the second the fruit (progressive though it may be) of that belief, which also results in 'deeds'.
The 'unforgivable sin', the only sin that cannot be forgiven? Not believing in the One God has sent.
-JGIG
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I want to personally thank you guys for being here. You're providing such context for the Grace message.
Ironically, behavior is tops on your lists for why you say the Grace message is in error, yet you repeatedly misrepresent those of us who are bringing the Gospel.
You've now rolled out a new set of accusations!
And to enhance the irony, since the 'license to sin' accusations aren't sticking, you're throwing the 'legalist' accusation out there to see if it will stick.
It will slide down the wall and fall flat, as well.
Carry on
.-JGIG
Good grief, PJ, you keep throwing out these accusations about what 'people' say, what they teach . . . WHAT people? WHAT teaching? Provide the PROOF for your accusations.
The drama is entertaining, but really, you are engaging in slander and the bearing of false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ.
-JGIG