The law of God is not the problem, it's sin!

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Jan 7, 2015
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I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is the same Law as the law of sin and death. But Paul makes clear in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin. So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn under it naturally by reason of Adams original sin.

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, by nature we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3 and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnation Romans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being under the law of sin and death.

We know this condemnation of
sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because death already reigned in the world.
Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be under the law of
sin and death. When you are under the law of sin you are a servant of sin, like sin being the Devils desire ruling over you as it is written in
Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing
sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:”


What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and enmity between the law of the
flesh and the law of the Spirit, these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another. Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is the law of sin and death, the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either.


Romans 7:12-25
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but
sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see
another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws (
flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another, but are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death? Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the
flesh is serving sin and =being under the law of sin and death. Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” So it is the Spirit of Christ (law of the Spirit of Life) that sets us free from the first nature that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God. But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it be to be only set free from a holy law, and not be set free from
sin and death? All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense.


But
the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn under, is the law of sin and death.
Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is
sin you truly need to be set free from by faith in Jesus Christ, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever. Peace.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#2
I am going to post Romans 6 to show we can in fact be set free from sin that works in our members....

Romans 6 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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#3
An interesting point is it appears Augustine introduced the gnostic idea of original sin and the absolute inability of the flesh to be righteous. The obvious problem with this is Jesus was a man and he was righteous.

Some now think the good samaritan was only good because he must have believed not because of what he did.

It is an idea that hyper-grace appears to spread, along with OSAS, we are doomed to be failures even though christ conquered sin through the cross and Paul exhorted people to live pure holy lives. If it was not possible, he would not have said this. Duh.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#4
An interesting point is it appears Augustine introduced the gnostic idea of original sin and the absolute inability of the flesh to be righteous. The obvious problem with this is Jesus was a man and he was righteous.

Some now think the good samaritan was only good because he must have believed not because of what he did.

It is an idea that hyper-grace appears to spread, along with OSAS, we are doomed to be failures even though christ conquered sin through the cross and Paul exhorted people to live pure holy lives. If it was not possible, he would not have said this. Duh.
What I have found is more people speak out against the law, than those who speak out against sin. I think they believe that if you remove the law you will also remove sin, or at least a consciousness of sin; but that is just wishful thinking. If you remove the sin nature working in man, then you will find no need for a law to condemn sin, because the law was not made for the righteous, but for sinners. :)
 
D

dalconn

Guest
#5
It is an idea that hyper-grace appears to spread, along with OSAS, we are doomed to be failures even though christ conquered sin through the cross and Paul exhorted people to live pure holy lives. If it was not possible, he would not have said this. Duh.
It would be interesting to interview those who really know you to learn how "holy" you really aren't
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#6
The law is not "sin" its the strength of sin... Its produces sinful passions and desires in those under the law... That's why you find the more legalistic a group is ..the more ungodly the group is... the farther a group gets from the righteousness of faith...the farther from God that group becomes.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#7
The law is not "sin" its the strength of sin... Its produces sinful passions and desires in those under the law... That's why you find the more legalistic a group is ..the more ungodly the group is...
I've heard that before, but it's not the law that causes sinful desire, it's sin. Just as the serpent took occasion by God's commandment to deceive Eve with the lie.

Romans 7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. ....
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
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#8
I have never seen in all my many years even one Christian who uses the freedom of grace to sin. Or, as you put it, an excuse for ongoing sin.

Not a real Christian who loves Jesus and lives for him.

Not one.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#9
I have never seen in all my many years even one Christian who uses the freedom of grace to sin. Or, as you put it, an excuse for ongoing sin.
On the contrary, If I had a nickel every time someone tried to use Romans chapter 7 for an excuse for ongoing sin, even proclaiming Paul had a problem with ongoing sin, then I would have a whole bunch of nickels. :)
 
D

dalconn

Guest
#10
God has a special place he takes his disobedient children to visit from time to time :)

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I have been there a few times in my walk :D
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#11
I've heard that before, but it's not the law that causes sinful desire, it's sin. Just as the serpent took occasion by God's commandment to deceive Eve with the lie.

Romans 7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. ....
What do you mean "you heard that before" ? Its said in evident words in the New Testament..its not debatable that is says it...now you might debate what that means? but it context of Romans 7 ...its very clear what it means.

The law produces more sinful passions ...anyone who can read and believes the bible knows that's whats being said and taught in Gods evident Word.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#12
On the contrary, If I had a nickel every time someone tried to use Romans chapter 7 for an excuse for ongoing sin, even proclaiming Paul had a problem with ongoing sin, then I would have a whole bunch of nickels. :)
Who is teaching "ongoing" sin but those that teach the law..."the strength of sin" the "power" of sin is the law...

The power over sin is only in the righteousness of faith...

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#13
Oh oh...now you are in trouble...you said the "race" word with a "g" added to it...:cool:
 
E

ember

Guest
#14
"On the contrary, If I had a nickel every time someone tried to use Romans chapter 7 for an excuse for ongoing sin, even proclaiming Paul had a problem with ongoing sin, then I would have a whole bunch of nickels.*"

****************************

Yeah...I'm not buying it

Yet another "I am sinless" thread

Thank God....literally thank God...we have a true understanding and are not in bondage nor are we under judgement here by the op or anyone who joins in yet another harangue against freedom in Christ...not to sin but to live our lives as being dead to sin and ALIVE in Christ!

Perhaps if you actually understood Romans 7 as freedom from condemnation rather than continually attempting to justify your personal views, you would stop attempting to call those of us who DO understand it as well as GRACE, sinners in your eyes

Christians. ..you are free from this ops judgment

We KNOW we are not free to sin and I honestly cannot understand why certain members here continue to say the opposite

I will assume there is a spiritual battle wherein the GRACE of God is misrepresented and Christians here who acknowledge their need of a Savior are also under attack

We who understand Gods grace do not continue to sin.....we do sin but we ask for forgiveness and God who is just, forgives us

Contrary to the op...I have NEVER known one single believer who uses Romans 7 or ANY other scripture as designed to allow for sin
 
E

ember

Guest
#15
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.*For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.*But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


Romans 7

It does NOT say what the op is torturing it to say
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#16
What do you mean "you heard that before" ? Its said in evident words in the New Testament..its not debatable that is says it...now you might debate what that means? but it context of Romans 7 ...its very clear what it means.

The law produces more sinful passions ...anyone who can read and believes the bible knows that's whats being said and taught in Gods evident Word.
I already showed you, it is the lust of sin that produces sinful passions, not the law, that is ridiculous! LOL :)
 
G

Gr8grace

Guest
#17
As believers, if we think that our battle is against sin........we are slaves to it. A lifetime of battling sin and death and never realizing and living their LIFE in Christ.

for the unbeliever, fought sin till they were blue in the face and still wound up in the LoF. Never trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#19
As believers, if we think that our battle is against sin........we are slaves to it. A lifetime of battling sin and death and never realizing and living their LIFE in Christ.

for the unbeliever, fought sin till they were blue in the face and still wound up in the LoF. Never trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
Unbelievers don't fight sin; they're its slaves. If our warfare isn't against sin, what is it against?

You truly speak like an unregenerate person.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#20
I already showed you, it is the lust of sin that produces sinful passions, not the law, that is ridiculous! LOL :)
Your just double speaking to ignore the truth of Gods Word... "the strength of Sin is the law" that's what the bible clearly teaches .... Now if you deny that..you deny the truth and need to just stop all this nonsense where you pretend to be defending sound doctrine.

Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said,
Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.