Watching "Un-christian Porn" - protect your heart

[PeterJens]

This, in my opinion, exemplifies why the Grace plus works people get it so wrong. The list a person does is right but the ORDER in which they are done is destructive.

Got to say, lists can be missleading. Repentance is
Recognises they have sinned
Admits their guilt
Asks God to forgive them
Trusts in the cross for the forgiveness of sins
You can repent of an action without reference to God.
Repentance is christian terms always includes these 4 steps. I was not saying you repent before God has moved in your heart, but it is always a theoretical idea to say when or how God moved, you just know He did and one responds.
On these short posts we are always summarising large subjects, so it is important to recognise where we agree and disagree.

Now unfortunately this subject does involve, heresy, evil spirits, apostacy etc. because of the nature of the subject matter.
There are many who claim much but can be shown to be false teachers, false prophets and anti-christs.
If this is too hot a subject, then I suggest one has to stop believing, because faith is saying this is Jesus and I love Him and agree to this set of beliefs. There is no nice fluffy cloud where heaven and hell do not become a hard reality.
We all do die and will meet the Lord, simple facts of life, and it will hurt whatever.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Good morning Peter! I was just replying to your post when it disappeared!
What I was saying was that of course I don't believe that doing good and being good is useless.
The whole point of our Lord sacrificing Himself is to conform us to Gods image and to make a bride without spot or wrinkle.

 

[PeterJens]

I am certain we all agree on this. Doctrine is not the test of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Their fruit is. Do we agree with this first part?

Unfortunately what you are talking about is not relevant. In this arena we express emotion, and people will get annoyed, will identify heresy, unsound doctrine and sin, hypocracy, those who are doomed to hell and those who are in the Kingdom.

When Jesus said "You brood of vipers" there is no nice floury patience, kindness etc.
Over quite a few people here I would say catagorically they have no intention in being honest about what they believe or why, and are happy to provoke, slander, bully and abuse whoever they like.

So playing this censorship game does not work. It is 100% a false premise. The best you can get from people is honesty and openness. That is what I would hope for, even from you. I am not sure you are capable of this though.

 

[PeterJens]

Good morning Peter! I was just replying to your post when it disappeared!
What I was saying was that of course I don't believe that doing good and being good is useless.
The whole point of our Lord sacrificing Himself is to conform us to Gods image and to make a bride without spot or wrinkle.

grace8 had proposed a theology of judgement of deeds alone.

The root is deeds done outside Christ are evil. So any "religious" deeds are doomed to hell

The problem with this kind of idea is a christian can walk in the flesh, do evil good deeds as well as non-christians.
Once you have eliminated sin as the measuring stick, good deeds do not work because everyone potentially does fleshly deeds (worthy of hell) and good deeds in christ.

Now salvation is based on faith, but christian could live their whole lives in evil good deeds and still go to heaven.

Language looses its meaning here because deeds become irrelevant also.

Now if you cannot see this is basically a different faith to normal Christian faith, you do not know what a normal christian is.
This is not me being hard or arrogant, it is just facts.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Unfortunately what you are talking about is not relevant. In this arena we express emotion, and people will get annoyed, will identify heresy, unsound doctrine and sin, hypocracy, those who are doomed to hell and those who are in the Kingdom.

When Jesus said "You brood of vipers" there is no nice floury patience, kindness etc.
Over quite a few people here I would say catagorically they have no intention in being honest about what they believe or why, and are happy to provoke, slander, bully and abuse whoever they like.

So playing this censorship game does not work. It is 100% a false premise. The best you can get from people is honesty and openness. That is what I would hope for, even from you. I am not sure you are capable of this though.

And there we go again, Peter. You started out so well with your first post. What made you delete it? Now you attack in an unlovely manner and say you don't think I am capable of honesty.

You wish to edit our Lord's words that we will know our true brothers by their fruit and by their love for one another because for some reason you want it to instead say we will know them by whether their understanding is perfect, which you define as: those who see it as I do. Which is pride in masquerade. You don't have perfect knowledge and even if you did, you would have nothing without love.even if you had perfect knowledge as you are so sure you do, what use would it be if you use it to arrogantly claim you are right and because we don't yet have that perfect knowledge, we are doomed agents of Satan with the inability to even be honest in our discussion with you. Why boast and revile in this manner as if you have anything good that God did not give to you?

To say you don't think I can be honest is prideful belittling and I refuse to engage it, making you able to sin any worse in your boasting. If you have to be unlovely, I won't engage.

Read the statement you've made that shows up at the bottom of every one of your posts Peter. You go about in direct opposition to what you say there.

 

[PeterJens]

Fruit

Fruit of a persons life are the words they speak and the deeds they do.
If the words they speak are heresy, they do not know God.
If the are full of anger, hatred, envy, malice, then it is not of God.

Now though people have accused me of these things, I am not angry, I have no envy, malice, or hatred. So I am unsure how these got projected on to me. I think the idea is to call someone a heretic is hatred, whereas to be a heretic is to teach something not of the christian faith. From a standard christian perspective universalism is heresy, along with everyones sin is forgiven irrespective of faith.

I would also catagorise we are gods theology likewise, and command authority, speaking things into being exnihilo.
This sounds like the occult, and has no part of our faith.

Now if you say I am hating people saying this, you are wrong. I am stating simple reality. This kind of heresy is blasphemy against God and His word, but as the Lord says, this can be forgiven if repented of.

Now if I am not exercising the fruit of the spirit is talking calmly and nicely about blasphemy, it is hard to be more concilatory. To my way of thinking it is no wonder the church is going to pot with such weak understanding of faith and life.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

grace8 had proposed a theology of judgement of deeds alone.

The root is deeds done outside Christ are evil. So any "religious" deeds are doomed to hell

The problem with this kind of idea is a christian can walk in the flesh, do evil good deeds as well as non-christians.
Once you have eliminated sin as the measuring stick, good deeds do not work because everyone potentially does fleshly deeds (worthy of hell) and good deeds in christ.

Now salvation is based on faith, but christian could live their whole lives in evil good deeds and still go to heaven.

Language looses its meaning here because deeds become irrelevant also.

Now if you cannot see this is basically a different faith to normal Christian faith, you do not know what a normal christian is.
This is not me being hard or arrogant, it is just facts.

Gr8grace is trying to put it all together and you are working to hinder that. She is trying to learn and to walk humbly with her God and to understand all of the verses as they fit together. She is not satisfied with excluding some of the verses to fit her present understanding and is willing to talk and work it out. And she is doing all of that without beating others up and is speaking respectfully to her brothers and sisters.

She is showing more fruit of the Spirit than you are and is not running around reviling and cursing, so we are inclined to work together and talk with her because we see she has been with our Lord. I could be wrong, but I think it will be much harder now for you to get her to fall for and get dragged into your bitterness, reviling and cursing from now on.

 

[PeterJens]

You wish to edit our Lord's words that we will know our true brothers by their fruit

God bless you, and I hope you find your way to the Lord.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Fruit

Fruit of a persons life are the words they speak and the deeds they do.
If the words they speak are heresy, they do not know God.
If the are full of anger, hatred, envy, malice, then it is not of God.

Now though people have accused me of these things, I am not angry, I have no envy, malice, or hatred. So I am unsure how these got projected on to me. I think the idea is to call someone a heretic is hatred, whereas to be a heretic is to teach something not of the christian faith. From a standard christian perspective universalism is heresy, along with everyones sin is forgiven irrespective of faith.

I would also catagorise we are gods theology likewise, and command authority, speaking things into being exnihilo.
This sounds like the occult, and has no part of our faith.

Now if you say I am hating people saying this, you are wrong. I am stating simple reality. This kind of heresy is blasphemy against God and His word, but as the Lord says, this can be forgiven if repented of.

Now if I am not exercising the fruit of the spirit is talking calmly and nicely about blasphemy, it is hard to be more concilatory. To my way of thinking it is no wonder the church is going to pot with such weak understanding of faith and life.

I say to you if you even call someone a fool you are in danger of fire. Your words are full of bitterness, cursing and reviling. It is what proceeds from your heart and comes out of your mouth that defiles you.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sometimes we just need to "shake our feet" and leave them to the Lord if they carry on with their malice and bitterness...the Lord will be faithful to them and love on them and bring others to help them.

I say to you if you even call someone a fool you are in danger of fire. Your words are full of bitterness, cursing and reviling. It is what proceeds from your heart and comes out of your mouth that defiles you.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

The good samaritan. In my book a good man loving from the heart. That is Jesus and what he wants us to do.

For some here an evil man because he did not do it in Christ. That is not the gospel. If you cannot see that you do not know Jesus.

I am not here to win people over, it is obvious many would regard followers of Jesus legalists doomed to hell who are trying to earn our way to heaven.

It is based on assumptions about original sin, the fallen nature of humans and a gnostic view of the born again spirit.

I am glad we can progress to agree to disagree. Following the Lord is not about fitting together verses to invent a new solution, it is about walking with Jesus and listening to what He is teaching you.

 

[Gr8grace]

Gr8grace is trying to put it all together and you are working to hinder that. She is trying to learn and to walk humbly with her God and to understand all of the verses as they fit together. She is not satisfied with excluding some of the verses to fit her present understanding and is willing to talk and work it out. And she is doing all of that without beating others up and is speaking respectfully to her brothers and sisters.

She is showing more fruit of the Spirit than you are and is not running around reviling and cursing, so we are inclined to work together and talk with her because we see she has been with our Lord. I could be wrong, but I think it will be much harder now for you to get her to fall for and get dragged into your bitterness, reviling and cursing from now on.

I appreciate your kind words.................and I am dude! A dud to many, but a dude.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL...me too..I'm a dude..not a "dudette"...it's the "grace" part of our names that can throw people off...

I appreciate your kind words.................and I am dude! A dud to many, but a dude.

 

[PeterJens]

When theology and belief leave sanity

A man stands up the front of a group and says, "Jesus is not the only begotton Son of God, I am too. I am equal to Jesus"

This is a fool speaking. It is blasphemy and foolish to compare himself to Christ. For this fool there is only the fires of Hell that await. There is no way back, it is not like the blasphemed by mistake, or do not understand the consequences.

When you have sold you soul to satan, words no longer matter, it is just the money you want to flow.
And those that listen and approve these defiled men bring judgement of themselves.

They are not my brothers or sisters. They have been cast out.

Why is it a sin to listen to a medium or submit to a horoscope? Because you are submiting to the spirit that is working through that individual which is not of God, and saying they are more important than God himself.

Equally if you submit to teachers who have another spirit and preach blasphemy you are submitting to the spirit that is in them and the judgement that will fall because of them. For too long Gods people have kept silent while the enemy steals away the name of Christ and push this poison as the gospel.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Wow, I keep doing that. I'm surrounded by dudes and duds I keep assuming must be women because such gracious behavior and words come from their mouths.

 

[PeterJens]

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
Acts 10:43

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord
Acts 3:19

I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Acts 26:17-18

Now this is preaching by the apostles after the cross.

Notice "everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins"

You have to believe to receive forgiveness of sins

To preach something different to this is to preach heresy.

It is this open and shut.

Taking a verse that talks about judgement of deeds done means sin is irrelevant is not contradict one specific obvious meaning with one which is unclear whether judgement of good and bad deeds includes sinful behaviour or not, but as sinful behaviour is deeds done in actions and thoughts, it is an odd twist to truth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It is a TOUGH subject. Because God requires perfect righteousness, not our goodness. And we have a hard time discerning our goodness and Divine goodness. Are we doing it through the Spirit, or are we operating in the flesh and our OWN "goodness"

And TO God our good is EVIL. It is wood ,hay and stubble and will be burned up.


And for the unbelievers good............... it is judged, their good or DEEDS(which they try to use for salvation or righteousness) does not compare to Christ and His RIGHTEOUS DEED.


And maybe you will address this verse? our Sins are judged and paid for.

What are the deeds that are judged if Christ paid for all sin?.....Not trapping you or anything. Just no other grace believer on this forum has addressed this for me. If Christ paid for ALL sin, and we really believe this...........what is judged?


New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


IMO, most grace believers are afraid to deal with this. They are going to get the BOOT, if they truly hold to the fact that ALL,ALL,ALL,ALL,ALL,ALL sin was paid for. Then what is Judged?...........religion and good works done in the flesh. 99 percent of christianity believes that one can lose salvation or one WILL do good works after salvation.

We are a sin focused and creature good focused society and have forgotten grace and HIS marvelous WORK.

Took me forever to find this post again, then I typed for a long time, hit a wrong button and lost it all. Second time today. I'll do it again because it's important. It'll be better anyway because the post won't be so long and burdensome to read.

When we meet God, we are so grateful that He chose us to show His Son to that we begin to think we owe it to Him to "be good." So we try and fail, become depressed and sorrowful, try again, fail, and repeat that cycle, sometimes for years (as in my case).

If we don't really hear and take his words to heart, we don't even see that all our attempts and striving are not righteous at all but if we do take them to heart, we see that our anger at others is murder, so what's the use of continuing our striving in any area when we can't even stop murdering?

At this point, we are ready to bear what He has to say to us and we agree that we cannot birth this child He has promised and that we cannot help to bring the promised child just as Abraham could not. In fact, we have to send away the child of our own effort and working because it is only the child God produces that receives the promises.

We fell into the same error of the foolish galatisns, believing we could finish in the flesh what was begun in the Spirit.

We weren't ready to agree to pick up our cross and die until we wore ourselves out trying to keep our life.

Once we finally see that we will never grow in any virtue or run a single enemy out of the land by our own hand, we begin to see amazing victory over our enemies. Anger, bitterness, resentments, all that we tried to overcome, we were actually trying to save our life and our rights instead of losing our life.

If we knew the peace and rest that would be ours, we wouldn't be so afraid to give up our arrogant life of pride, demanding respect and good treatment, defending ourselves and forgiving ourselves while being so exacting with others. We would pick up our cross with joy if we only knew! But we are so fearful.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Dear reader,

The good samaritan. In my book a good man loving from the heart. That is Jesus and what he wants us to do.

For some here an evil man because he did not do it in Christ. That is not the gospel. If you cannot see that you do not know Jesus.

I am not here to win people over, it is obvious many would regard followers of Jesus legalists doomed to hell who are trying to earn our way to heaven.

It is based on assumptions about original sin, the fallen nature of humans and a gnostic view of the born again spirit.

I am glad we can progress to agree to disagree. Following the Lord is not about fitting together verses to invent a new solution, it is about walking with Jesus and listening to what He is teaching you.

Well. It IS the gospel, Peter.
He did a good thing. He followed the law, he showed mercy when no one else would.
We don't say he did an evil deed as you suppose.
But he is a parable, not a live person as the woman at the well was.

And we know if he were a live person, he would fall short of the mark in other ways, and so he would not keep all of the law. And to not keep all of it condemns us because the payment for sin is death.

If he were a live person, he may have later gone home and beat his wife and children, because we know ourselves Peter, we know ourselves, and we are often kinder to strangers and animals than we are to our family and those we know and claim to love. We know we cannot keep the whole law and if we give up our fear of admitting what is in us and what we are capable of doing, our Lord comes RUNNING to us, Peter. All He wants is the truth from us. We can't be truthful with Him if we are putting on fig leaves to hide our sin from ourselves and others, making justifications for our behaviors and demanding strict adherence for everyone else, and running and hiding.

Admitting the truth, which we fear so greatly, sets us free, Peter.
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. It will set you free from the charade, from always defending yourself, your honor, your reputation, your opinion.

So it is the gospel that this good Samaritans good deed did not save him unless he was completely sinless in all else, because there will be no more rebellion against God in heaven this next time around. Not even a little rebellion.

It is not as you keep insisting, that we say he did an evil deed by showing mercy, but what happens to him when he then does an evil deed, which he will, because he is human. Will his good deed erase his bad deeds?

You are missing the point of the parable though. It is that the man the two religious men would not come near for fear of defiling themselves, is the one who helped their own brother when he was in need.
And worse than that, they didn't know if the jewish man, their own brother, was dead or not. And they didn't care. In fact, maybe they could see his chest rising and falling but he looked near death and they feared he would die while they were helping him thereby defiling themselves. Their imagined spotlessness was more important to them than a beat up man laying in the road, possibly alive or dead.

The parable is meant to show us ourselves, Peter. We are those religious men who didn't show mercy, care and love. It isn't a statement on who is saved and who isn't. It is a parable meant to show the man he was talking to that a convoluted thesis on who was his neighbor and who wasn't was not going to be the justification to hide his lack of mercy behind that he wished it to be. Good grief, its so us that it seems impossible we fail to see it and be convicted by it!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Had a thought earlier, yesterday, about the argument on whether or not the man in the parable was a believer in God or not. Some said no he wasn't and others said he was because otherwise he was incapable of showing mercy to anyone ever.

When I got past the thought of how the posters were having a useless conversation by their desire to write more about the fictional parable character, and missing the point of that parable by the fact that they needed it to fit their doctrines, I realized that IF I were to jump in, I would imagine him to be a believer in God because we know the Samaritan woman at the well worshiped God, so it is not right to have the thought that Samaritans didn't worship God.

Jesus said to her, you know very little about the One you worship. He didn't say she didn't worship God, just that she knew very little about Him.

Anyway, neither here nor there, just interesting.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Okay, well I figure I should be ready to shut up by now and let someone else give their thoughts. It's grace777's thread and he's barely gotten a chance to speak for all my blathering. I want to talk with you guys. What are you thinking?? Speak up and tell us what Gods showing you in here.